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Marmalade

A discussion on GAS

GAS Poll  

44 members have voted

  1. 1. Is this a workable and acceptable solution to GAS?

    • Yep!
      27
    • Maybe. Some things could change!
      13
    • Nope.
      4


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I came near the end of 360 life ❤️ So I don't much about GAS, or JP end game life of psu >.> However reading these idea's and current changes / updates have upset me - I would love more than anything for Psu to just return to Old state, im not a fan of many PSUC changes / and will keep my opinion's to myself.

I hope you with all the best with this server, and thank you for many, many hours of enjoyment - and BIG THANKS TO ALL THE PLAYERS that have helped me lvl / gear up. 

Thanks

Edited by RUKIA
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9 minutes ago, RUKIA said:

I came near the end of 360 life ❤️ So I don't much about GAS, or JP end game life of psu >.> However reading these idea's and current changes / updates have upset me - I would love more than anything for Psu to just return to Old state, im not a fan of many PSUC changes / and will keep my opinion's to myself.

I hope you with all the best with this server, and thank you for many, many hours of enjoyment - and BIG THANKS TO ALL THE PLAYERS that have helped me lvl / gear up. 

Thanks

If you leaving, hope to see you on official release 🙂❤️

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1 minute ago, Delta Violet+ said:

If you leaving, hope to see you on official release 🙂❤️

Depends - I have place lots of other games on hold ❤️ 

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Im not really sure what's best for balance here, i'll leave it at that for now. But...

5 hours ago, Exmover said:

3. Like some posts above. Why not consider putting increased pa lvls there? For technics and striking pas yes it's just about modifier, but for bullets is another story. It's not just modifiers, it is also elemental bonus from it. Some weapons have HUGE elemental gap between 40 and 41. By all means, please consider this as your plan.

For this specifically, im game. I usually play as a wartecher, and i could really use some increasing PA lvl thing especially for my sa-TECHs. I mean, come on, as a class that couldnt use any traps (yup, dont even call those de ragan breaths a trap), some CC stuffs will be nice. Even with the current SE bonus from diopside, i still got a hard time applying SEs as a WT, no kidding.

If this happens to be too gamebreaking for a certain class that can blast open their way with megids these days (ahem), there's always the option for making this feature exclusive only for some classes that needs it.

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Just to react of what has been said above, don't get the argument of "people now works, so don't make it too long"

1) If the goal in a game like this is to reach a caracter to the top, it doesnt have to be done in two months. You can take your time. Not a race.

2) If you enjoy the game but want to grind quick because of work, well, maybe you should do something else.

 

Dont want to sound rude, but this argument is bad, its like asking a remake of Doom without too much blood because of blood phobia...

Edited by Aelphasy
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I was a little vague about the upgrades in my post, and whether everything was possible or not. It's difficult without listing virtually everything, so I'll just say for now that most of the upgrades listed on the psupedia GAS page are viable ( http://psupedia.info/GAS.html ). The same restrictions would also likely apply.

  • Basic Abilities - Yes
  • Special Abilities - Yes
  • Weapon Skills - Some, but back burner for now most likely
  • Attributes/Resistances - Yes
  • Weapon Styles - Hhhhh maybe
  • Shield Styles - Likely
  • Extra Styles - Yes, except "Provoke"



I'm also still not 100% sure how these upgrades will be applied, but I think the way I've described it has been through my own confusion. Initially I thought that the upgrades may apply directly to the item or object (It might be easier, I still don't know for sure), so I said they would be character bound. It's more likely that these upgrades would be bound directly to your Type(s), so they would have to be character bound rather than account bound. However, having it all be Type-bound raises concerns about having multiple Types and farming MP, and the grind generally becoming a huge drag. We also have similar concerns, and we're currently trying to work out some alternative solutions that hopefully don't force players into non-stop MP farming, especially for Types that are boring for them. Generally we want it to be so that players can play however they feel comfortable, while still having a healthy and fun solution to gaining their upgrades. We'll find a healthy balance, but we'll need your help in doing so.

As for S4's and the like... by the time that this all actually gets implemented properly, I will hopefully have some tool for us to create and edit mission difficulties properly. Most all of the Vanilla missions will likely be brought in line with AOTI, and difficulties will be fixed where they lack.

I know that this isn't really the solution that some people might want, but I don't really have many options to recover this feature any other way. I'm sorry.

Thanks for all of your feedback so far 💕

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This is how I’m getting confused : take for example one of the better GAS abilities (Full custom power) Lets say you are level capped and have hit type class lvl50 and unlocked FCP....But you don’t have any 10/10 weapons so you don’t benefit from this being forced onto you. At this point with GAS not being customisable you wouldn’t be able to switch it out for something that benefits you, you’d be stuck with a useless FCP.

Maybe im missing something , but doing GAS via type is that going to make all GAS abilities static? Or will the player have multiple choices to which he/she can choose from? @Marmalade

All classes use a different set of GAS to each other, often changing GAS for different missions. Fighmaster uses about four/five different optimum loadouts of gas alone. 

 

 

 

Edited by Delta Violet+
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@Exmover They could simply have you not gain stats when you level your type past 20, or have the stat gains be insignificant. So that shouldn't be too big of an issue.

 

Edited by KanameChidori
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If it's entirely possible I'd be very happy with tying most of the upgrades as 'passive' unlocks to type levels beyond 20. Some of the bonuses like the stat and PA level categories would be perfect for this but we might need to have some system in place so people can pick and choose between the extra categories as just unlocking everything passively would probably be a bit overkill. GAS was a way to keep progressing after hitting the level cap while hunting so I'm really looking forward to what you guys can come up with!

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Would just be easier to forget about GAS and instead just balance each class at base like giving AF FF FG 41+PAs 

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8 hours ago, Big diga said:

Would just be easier to forget about GAS and instead just balance each class at base like giving AF FF FG 41+PAs 

Nope.

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14 hours ago, Big diga said:

Would just be easier to forget about GAS and instead just balance each class at base like giving AF FF FG 41+PAs 

I feel a system like GAS is too big to just leave out. Having some form of character progression beyond RNG item drops will really help keep people playing for longer periods of time and GAS can give people chances to make unique builds if they're able to implement the customization aspects fully. 

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Would it be possible to run a check against how many classes a character had reach level cap at and provide bonuses based on that? Would give people a reason to level cap multiple classes on one character.

 

Maybe unlock further level caps for classes by reaching level caps within a set of classes? Probably overly complicated.

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I will echo what Delta mentioned that a huge point of GAS is the personal customization, you can choose what you do and don't want in the order you want it in.  By taking this away, many GAS items would likely need to be adjusted to a small or large degree depending on the class, and I think there would be too much to adjust in that regard that can affect one class more than it affects another (e.g. balancing twin saber 50 PAs around WT which affects AF and fF, or vice versa). Regarding the order, certain skills are more important to some classes than others. For example, master classes care more about full custom power first because they don't need to worry about lv 50 PAs/techs, they already have them. By dictating the order the skills are earned in if tied to class type level, this preference disappears.

There's also the matter of how long it takes to grind for a full GAS setup on a class. The amount of important AP investment varies hugely depending on class, so while some classes could just grind for a little while, others would need to grind a LOT. Tying the customs to type level equals the playing field, which mostly hurts classes that need less while only marginally helping others. It also increases the grind across the playing field because everyone will be getting custom unlocks they don't necessarily want. Related to the grind is AEXP vs. MP. AEXP makes it very straightforward to dictate the base rate to unlock skills since all of the AP costs are already known from PSUsakura. Making customs tied to type level unlocks (MP) means you now need to re-evaluate the cost (at what type level is something unlocked, 25 or 30?). If you're not careful, it's very easy to make GAS grind much, much longer than it was with AEXP with type level, which was already long for many classes in the first place.

It's cool to see GAS is being looked at, but I'm very wary of it's implementation if it strays too far from how it was on official. I really hope careful consideration is given in how its implemented if it's much different.

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In fact, we already have to grind a lot rn, especially due to the grinder.

But the strength of this alternative GAS is that the grind is certain to be rewarded, and that we know when the empowerment will arrive, so that the necessary time is tolerable. Not saying it absolutely need to take months to upgrade ONE thing, but it's also a pleasure to evolve over time.

 

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23 minutes ago, Aelphasy said:

Not saying it absolutely need to take months to upgrade ONE thing, but it's also a pleasure to evolve over time.

 

did you play JP endgame? are you familiar with the length of time GAS took to begin with?

edit: it's legit incredible i have to defend myself every time someone comments saying "this game should be grindy, stop saying it shouldn't be". it is possible to offer criticism about the length of grind without saying i want things to be easy. i know people like hoshi constantly comment about how i want the game to be easy (which i have never said). if i wanted easy games to play, i never would have played phantasy star games to begin with be it pso1, psu, or pso2. all have long term grinding each of which i've engaged in (psu for 15k+ hours, pso2 25k+ hours). if you do not understand the nuance of "hey let's be careful about the grind time of this new feature without making it excessive" as not being "THIS GAME NEEDS TO BE EASY OR I WON'T PLAY", i can't make you understand at this point.

Edited by milranduil

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1 hour ago, milranduil said:

did you play JP endgame? are you familiar with the length of time GAS took to begin with?

edit: it's legit incredible i have to defend myself every time someone comments saying "this game should be grindy, stop saying it shouldn't be".

No one went at you at all. Aelphasy is essentially saying that they'd like the time spent and the reward to be tolerable. That is, not so hard that it takes months, and not so easy that you obtain them all in 3 hours. That's their opinion. I appreciate everyone's feedback.

I'm currently looking into the possibility of having GAS upgrades be customisation via a shop or counter, I'll let you all know how that goes when I figure a few more things out. One of the things that I can pretty much guarantee is that shop for upgrades will unfortunately have to temporarily take inventory space. The way this will have to work (if you want customisation) is that the upgrades will have to be a consumable item, that the server automatically uses once you leave the shop. Inventory space will be required for the temporary item, but I don't think that's a major issue in the grand scheme of things.

We're also toying with ways to obtain AEXP by just playing instead of by MP, to get things closer to the way official had it. The main wall I face is the customisation, and I understand everyone's concerns with the balance and the grind, but please bear with me. Once I figure out whether the shop is a viable solution to customisation then I will post about it and update the main post.

Thanks 💕

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passive upgrades, may translate to less freedom/choice involves, so please avoid that.

as a temp fix mislabaling the currency as meseta is fine, while ya'lls tinker with it.

 

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10 hours ago, milranduil said:

did you play JP endgame? are you familiar with the length of time GAS took to begin with?

edit: it's legit incredible i have to defend myself every time someone comments saying "this game should be grindy, stop saying it shouldn't be". it is possible to offer criticism about the length of grind without saying i want things to be easy. i know people like hoshi constantly comment about how i want the game to be easy (which i have never said). if i wanted easy games to play, i never would have played phantasy star games to begin with be it pso1, psu, or pso2. all have long term grinding each of which i've engaged in (psu for 15k+ hours, pso2 25k+ hours). if you do not understand the nuance of "hey let's be careful about the grind time of this new feature without making it excessive" as not being "THIS GAME NEEDS TO BE EASY OR I WON'T PLAY", i can't make you understand at this point.

I don't know well the endgame of original game, but I know the logic of games of this type. If you played PSO, then you know the time it takes to simply reach the level 200 (one of the top jp player of Ephinea did it in 3 month to give you an idea) and the average time on PSO NGC needed to hit 200 was around 700-900h. Which is far more reasonable than what we've seen here (someone did 140 -> 150 in 3 hours...) and which is anyway a pleasant challenge. And PSO don't finish when you hit cap...

Yes for a balance, but a balance that goes in the direction of what the game is. I already complained about a lot of things that seemed too long for me (twin hg PA especially) so I understand the nuance and you are right, but I just want to share what should be good for the future, and its not a game that hardcore player clean in two months (imo).

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57 minutes ago, Aelphasy said:

I don't know well the endgame of original game, but I know the logic of games of this type. If you played PSO, then you know the time it takes to simply reach the level 200 (one of the top jp player of Ephinea did it in 3 month to give you an idea) and the average time on PSO NGC needed to hit 200 was around 700-900h. Which is far more reasonable than what we've seen here (someone did 140 -> 150 in 3 hours...) and which is anyway a pleasant challenge. And PSO don't finish when you hit cap...

Yes for a balance, but a balance that goes in the direction of what the game is. I already complained about a lot of things that seemed too long for me (twin hg PA especially) so I understand the nuance and you are right, but I just want to share what should be good for the future, and its not a game that hardcore player clean in two months (imo).

FYI, that 3 hours of grinding you said happened because of rare mission being so easy to get. Now, it's even rarer than pre-zeta patch. 

Second, get quebbler suit and h44 missouri, and you'll see twin handguns as a usable weapon 🙂. In other words, I think they care about what you said on twin handguns, but happened to improve it without tweaking its modifier, atm.

Edited by Exmover
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For twin hg, I'm talking about the time it takes to reach them to 50, which appear way too long. The idea behind is that I'm not saying everything should have to be long.

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Ah yeah, I kinda agree on this, lvl all 6 elemental twin hg pa for like 100 hours of actively using. But that is still faster than lasers and past grenades pa. 100 hours is still nothing to make twin hg towards end game damage.

 

Seems like we're off topic now. My bad

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Since a major issue would be MP and AEXP farming creating another COM/BBB situation, would it be possible to create additional currencies for GAS? For example, would it be possible to reintroduce something like PA fragments? Some sort of currency that is guaranteed after an S rank clear of a mission. Add a counter to compress stacks of those into meta-currency (like those really old zon- and megi-photon events back on official). Would it be possible to use certain currencies for certain GAS upgrades? Like AEXP for basic abilities, type levels for special abilities, meta-currency for weapon skills, etc. Another possibility could be to divide the new currencies even further - such as striking weapon PA+ upgrades take X Spellstones, which are only rewarded for clearing S2+ missions on Moatoob; LB techs from Y Spellstones from Neudaiz, etc. That would also force people to actually run different missions.

I'd like to know what kinds of customizations are possible first before I comment on restoring old ones, creating new Clem ones, and balancing classes. (But I will say that I very much hope to see FT actually viable soon. <3)

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I love the idea of expanding the Class leveling up from 20, and embedding within 21-50 a way to purchase class-specific upgrades from the Weapons Skills and Attributes/Resistances categories.  I would recommend a much lower character level requirement to engage with this content than the 200 for AEXP;  for example, I think most players can max a class by 80, so somewhere between there and 100 would keep the improvements flowing while on the way to the character level cap.   If it is feasible, I endorse @Ravieth Arvenel 's great idea about multiple currencies requiring players to farm different locations for their character-specific improvements (Basic/ Special Abilities and Weapon/Shield/Extra Styles).   Again, 200 seems a bit high to start these upgrades; maybe once  a character has reached level 30 in any class and 120?  There could be particularly potent abilities that would require higher thresholds, of course.....

Very excited to see how this evolves, and mega kudos to all involved in restoring this wonderful game. 🥇

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