Should PA level caps increase for Expert Types?

[Exmover]

43 minutes ago, FUFME said:

That is a mega boost all across the deck for Acrotecher 30/30/40/50 would be Attila the Hun and Ultimate Warrior.

That is a total game changer.  My suggestion would be long down the road when hitting LV180+ and unlock the class past LV20 and get some extra perks

I don't use AT but what makes it game changing? They will be very powerful once they have access to all GAS features. Atm 10 lvl PA increase won't matter that much. Even with lvl 40 digas, it doesn't have that high damage. The only thing that matters on AT right now is whips and sabers (in some occasions also twin daggers), but if you think that can compete against FM in terms of TA, they still lost even with sabarta since they can't optimize their attack power through GAS feature

Edited August 29, 2019 by Exmover

[Valen]

1 hour ago, FUFME said:

That is a mega boost all across the deck for Acrotecher 30/30/40/50 would be Attila the Hun and Ultimate Warrior.

That is a total game changer.  My suggestion would be long down the road when hitting LV180+ and unlock the class past LV20 and get some extra perks

Acrotecher Getting an additional 10 levels to its skills will not make them "Attila the Hun and Ultimate Warrior".

Acrotecher's main Skills they use for damage is Infinite Storm and Vivi Dezza.

Using the formula here: http://psupedia.info/Formulae.html you can calculate how much damage they deal.

maximum damage = floor(crit x (total atp x pa x (1 + ele) x buff - enemy's dfp) / 5)
calculated atp = 1758
divine kamui att = 848
cutie crown  att = 371
kamui ele = .34
cutie ele = .29

divine kamui pa boost = 1.1

cutie crown pa boost = 1.2

20 infinite storm pa  = 2.75
30 infinite storm pa = 2.86
20 vivi dezza pa  = 3.6
30 vivi dezza pa = 3.72

enemy dfp = 656

20 infinite damage = 3461
30 infinite damage = 3608

20 vivi dezza damage = 3570
30 vivi dezza  damage = 3695

calculated with crit / JA because you should always JA.

 

As for what you said earlier "Give Acrotecher LV31 attack techs and lock it at 31 because LV31 vs LV40 Diga is mega powerful."

maximum damage = floor(crit x (rod x tp x pa x (1 + ele) x buff - enemy's mst) / 5)

calcualted tp = 2302
kakwane madog tp = 611
ele 30 tech = .31
ele 40 tech = .38

diga 30 pa = 2.8
diga 40 pa = 2.9

enemy mst = 656

 

diga 30 damage = 2582
diga 40 damage = 2829

calculated without crit / JC because it isn't guaranteed every time.

Note: these numbers aren't what you would see in game because clem's formula is a little different. However, the damage difference is basically the same at 20 and 30. if you are dealing roughly 100 more at 20 on clem, you will be doing roughly 100 more at 30. That's currently how it is for every damage type, at all levels. We are doing more damage on clem then we are supposed to be, but again, its more at all levels, and roughly the same number increase at all levels.

Edited August 29, 2019 by Valen

[Valen]

5 minutes ago, FUFME said:

There is lot of flaws in this and overall I don't believe or trust it.  It's too complex to get into , and that is why quantum computing is considered dangerous because it shows the flaws in our binary math system and breaks into the 4th dimension.

If you don't believe or trust it, do the math yourself. If it's too complex to get into, why are you discussing the damage then?

[tFirstSavedLives]

9 minutes ago, FUFME said:

There is lot of flaws in this and overall I don't believe or trust it.  It's too complex to get into , and that is why quantum computing is considered dangerous because it shows the flaws in our binary math system and breaks into the 4th dimension.

Imagine pretending to be stupid to seem smart.

[Sakarisei]

On 8/28/2019 at 2:56 AM, FB Ice said:

I still think it's wrong to argue that because something is meta that it's the only way to play. The GAS was made for customization. It specifically allowed you to go off meta. It was also something to work towards in the end of life, the last thing we need to do is remove even more end game progression from an extremely linear game. 

I can also absolutely promise you if this change were implemented, the meta would shift and then people would want THAT meta changed.

If you want to min-max and parse your DPS to see how high you can go, do it, but it's never going to be the case that every class is acutally equal. Fortefighter was never meant to compete with Fighmaster's damage output. They get more weapon variety and more tank. How is that not an ok tradeoff? If you want more damage go for it, but a change like this would be just as bad at forcing certain play styles as the current system.

Finally, this was only brought up because new content was released. How is balancing the game around an incomplete state going to make the game balanced down the road?

I can absolute assure you that if the 90% of the population were people with Master Classes, it was because how efficient were the master classes regardless of the Expert Types with GAS. And again. Basically I see you're justifying anything which cannot be defended.

Greetings.

[KanameChidori]

The majority of people will always play whatever is the strongest. People need to learn that there will always be a strongest type or fastest, that's just how this game works and that's completely fine. Of course a tech hybrid shouldn't be anywhere near a pure damage based type like idk GT vs FF. But I'm a purest, for me and others JP was perfect, but I understand most of you never played it and don't share that opinion. But being a test still, it's probably not that big of a deal to worry about numbers. Just do whatever and see how it pans out 

Edited August 29, 2019 by KanameChidori

[FB Ice]

12 hours ago, Sakarisei said:

I can absolute assure you

But you didn't

Quote

if the 90% of the population were people with Master Classes

But they aren't

Quote

How efficient were the master classes regardless of the Expert Types

You mean efficient with damage. Not overall efficiency. I'm assuming you have the deaths per run, contribution to a party, and overall run speed for every mission, then, else this is speculation. I also never said that GAS made Expert types comparable in damage. I said customizeable. This for me mainly means more fun and a way to justify off-meta builds. If you want to get technical, so long as there is an idiosyncrasy  between the damage output between weapons within a class, then there is no point in any hybrid class ever. If they did more damage, or even just similar damage then why would you play a non hybrid? Hybrid classes have far more utility. 

Quote

you're justifying anything which cannot be defended

This is not a debate tactic. You don't just state you're right, dust your hands off, and call it a day.

Some people are defending the point you're trying to make with both opinions and evidence. This you are not. You posted an opinion and then stated it as a fact, and anybody who needs to argue they should just be given the benefit of the doubt: shouldn't be.

I'm sorry if this comes off as too confrontational. You're entitled to have your opinion, but you are not entitled to tell people they aren't allowed to have their own. We can always agree to disagree, and that's where I'll leave this.

[Exmover]

1 hour ago, FB Ice said:

 I also never said that GAS made Expert types comparable in damage. I said customizeable.

I'm sure the very reason OP made this post is to close the gaps between expert and master types.

except AF and FF, other class types with 10 PA lvl increase will not outperform master class in terms of pure damage. Even if they have utility, overall, their performance if done by some solo testing and party combination makes them just become burden. Personally I'm trying my best as FG to contribute in party, but instead I just end up like what protranser did (traps), except no ex traps. Example in de rol le's case. My damage with rifles atm is 50% lower than experienced GM players. (4K damage in crit compared in GMs 6K damage). I need damage so that I can at least contribute well in overall party runs.

I may sound desperate, but that's how the current balance of three gunnerclasses happening right now.

Edited August 30, 2019 by Exmover

[FB Ice]

1 hour ago, Exmover said:

I'm sure the very reason OP made this post is to close the gaps between expert and master types.

 

But outside of De Rol Le, ForteGunner gets Spears and Grenades, both of which are pretty good for bossing, if not the current event bossing, and some other stuff like RCSM+dagger which is mad fun. I used to main ForteGunner, too, but I switched to GunMaster during Dengeki. I did so because the extra mission there needed specifically the best rifles I could possibly have in order to not die instantly. Sometimes you just have to accept that there are better classes for the job unless classes were stat-flattened entirely.

I get where you're coming from, and it may still honestly be the case that these classes are too weak. I've never been a fan of master classes, personally, either, but I don't think normalizing PAs to 50 across the board is the solution, either, as that's part of the charm of master classes and AT. If anything those classes should have the gaps closed with some base stats adjustments. That, or nerf the 2-3 classes that are too good instead of buffing every single other class to unprecedented levels. Regardless, until weapons come out to compete with the sheer magnitude other classes have any discussion on balance involving weapon types is kinda futile, as it may very well be the case that ForteGunner with a 15 star grenade launcher is the most viable way to boss the next event mission.

But as far as contributing to party, the meta argument comes back up. If you're not doing the absolute most meta build you are in some fashion a wasted opportunity costs, but this game is meant to be fun. There will always be a gap to close, but that doesn't mean anybody should be complaining that you're joining the party. If you feel obligated to absolutely reduce all potential wasted party time, then you should be playing a meta class regardless of how big the gap is, but that would be whack bro and you should just have fun and enjoy what you want.

I'm not saying you're wrong, the data may come out and show you're beyond correct and in all instances ForteGunner is outclassed, but I'm saying let's just wait and see. I'm sure more people will want balance once the server is finished. Like I said, if in the meantime as a bandaid fix 50 PAs were released I wouldn't mind, but I wouldn't trade a ForteGunner with 50 bullets for all those different weapons for a GunMaster any day of the week assuming their entire content was available to them.

Also keep in mind that when wipes stop, having multiple classes and characters maxed will be more viable so switching when you need is an option. 

 

As an aside: If you didn't know the Dengeki  event mission in question required an entrance fee from the main event, and would one shot you regardless of setup and disqualify your rewards while you watched and waited for your team to finish. This meant fast knockdown stunlock was absolutely required, as bad players would get DQ'd and I found no other reliable way to solo each proceedingly more difficult room was with Gun Master. The last room started you in a hallway between two carraguines who would charge at you and if you were alone GM could stun both of them enough to kill them, as they had significantly reduced hp. It was only a matter of stopping their charge before they instant-gibbed the party. People didn't like that I wouldn't share rewards, but they didn't say they were willing to do the same before hand  (this was not done through party drop changes. The event did it). I'd have gladly shared if they agreed to do the same for me before they got disqualified, so keep that in mind if the event comes out. Gotta keep your social contracts in order.