Should PA level caps increase for Expert Types?

[Valen]

Many of the Expert Types' PA damage is locked in later PA levels that aren't currently obtainable (usually the 41 - 50 range). If we increase their PA level caps, like how it was done with GAS, it will help close the gap between them and Master Types. Keeping in mind, that on JP, Expert Types were on par in many cases with Master Types.

Expert Types: Fighgunner, Guntecher, Wartecher, Fortefighter, Fortegunner, Fortetecher, Protranser, Acrofighter, and Acrotecher.

PA level caps with GAS:

Fighgunner: 50 Skills, 40 Bullets.

Guntecher: 20 Skills, 50 Bullets, 40 Attack TECHNICS, 30 Support TECHNICS.

Wartecher: 50 Skills, 30 Bullets, 40 Attack TECHNICS, 30 Support TECHNICS.

Fortefighter: 50 Skills, 30 Bullets.

Fortegunner: 30 Skills, 50 Bullets.

Fortetecher: 20 Skills, 40 Bullets, 50 Attack TECHNICS, 40 Support TECHNICS.

Protranser: 40 Skills, 50 Bullets.

Acrofighter: 50 Skills, 40 Bullets.

Acrotecher: 30 Skills, 30 Bullets, 40 Attack TECHNICS, 50 Support TECHNICS.

 

I'm only bringing this up because Fighmaster got Ultimate Chain and Cursed Dark Flow, which puts them pretty far ahead. Acrofighter is able to keep up as well with Gleaming Trickster and Furinkazan, even outshining them in some cases, but the other Expert Types were left in the dust. With HP Affects PWR also getting nerfed, Guntecher, Fortegunner, and Fighgunner got hurt a decent bit as well with Crossbows. Gunmaster / Fortegunner was hurt in the meta as well, Acrofighter and Fighmaster basically does their job for the most part (not counting the vertical ranged ability of gunners on bosses), by keeping up with their damage on Half Damage enemies if they have their weapons. 

 

Edit: Since a lot of people keep pointing out that GAS had you pick specific weapons to level up, and not just a flat 10 PA levels for everything, let me point out that last time I heard, Marm does not have the packets to recreate GAS. It would probably be unlikely that they can in some way have you choose what PAs we want increased. If we were to force specific weapons, then that wouldn't really be fair for people who want to use something else.

Edited August 28, 2019 by Valen

[Aelphasy]

I think the GM with 60 bullets should finally overtake the FG. 

 

And 90 if the goal is to make it equal to the FM. 

 

edit : joke aside, why not.

Edited August 26, 2019 by Aelphasy

[Exmover]

As gunner player (FG/GM/GT), I really support this idea.

If this happens, then.

1. FG, and GT have access to lvl 50 elemental crossbow, which is at least doable with 23% elemental attack. This is already good since crossbows are versatile to begin with. Loss of hp affects power makes me bit sad. But with strike arts of lvl 30 and 20 can make better option to cope up with damage (skadd will be good choice for FG. I wish skadd should be nerfed tbh). Also, lvl 50 shotguns with them is nice, despite slower atk speed, as another good weapon of choice (FG can cover slower atk speed with higher base line atp, while GT on lvl 20 has atp on par with GM, but they have access to lvl 21+ buffs).

2. GT and PT can utilize longbows to its fullest ability. Longbows are very strong, much better than rifles on base damage, since they ignore dfp, has higher base att, and also has access to high elemental bullets. Only thing that hinders it is lvl 40 limit.

3. Launchers will be good. Especially for PT and FG since they have access to lvl 50 bullets. That means they can hit up to 5 box, instead of current 4 thanks to lvl cap limit.

I'd like to post comments about things other than guns and bows, but I'll just wait for others' reply first.

[Kyo]

This feels like a no brainer, seems like a really simple change with significant improvements for a lot of classes. It'd definitely allow for some more diversity all round and let people enjoy what they play more without having to feel like dead weight. For dedicated AT mains it'd help a lot for when they need to solo.

I see no reason not to increase PA levels for these types.

[Core]

I like the idea overall. I would argue giving AF 50 skills though if they're actually competing with a FM in some ways , or at the very least , higher tier then other types other then FM. Is it really good to give them more of an edge?   

I would also argue that a GT would be more of a support techer then offense. I mostly use crossbow for sure along with a wand for some support or attack techs when needed. Maybe instead of 40 attack they could get 40 support instead.  Or do both WT/GT 40 atk/ 40support. (50 support is AT territory , and 50 atk is definitely more for a FT)

That aside I'm still in support of this idea. Would shake things up a bit for all nearly all types to help play catch up with those FM.

[IceTitan]

Haven't been playing much last few months due to rl. But having them at that level would make things more interesting specially for tye WT etc.

 

In the end its the devs decision, but would be nice to have full access to how the classes where end of cycle.

[Sakarisei]

For me much better than spending many GAS' points in lvling the caps of the PAs/Bullets/Techs... I agree

[Matt]

Let's be real, there's no point in playing anything outside of fighmaster unless all the expert classes had their intended PA level caps unlocked. 

[Coast]

To be fair though those unlocks were based on weapon type and not just a general cap increase. You couldn't have everything maxed.

[Valen]

2 minutes ago, Coast said:

To be fair though those unlocks were based on weapon type and not just a general cap increase. You couldn't have everything maxed.

True, but it wouldn't really be game breaking to do all of them, and I don't think that they have a way for us to choose what we want.

[Sakarisei]

52 minutes ago, Coast said:

To be fair though those unlocks were based on weapon type and not just a general cap increase. You couldn't have everything maxed.

Yes, but you forget one thing. If you lvl one weapon is mainly because the master classes doesn't have or the only way to have at lvl 50 the PAs of a certain weapon is from that class. Furthermore, for now it doesn't make sense to have the PA Data of lvl 41+ of other weapons than FMs & GMs since the cap of 40.

Furthermore, lvling the offensive techs to lvl 40 via GAS were very expensive for making it viable.

Edited August 26, 2019 by Sakarisei

[Coast]

I didn't forget it. I just figured out someone should point that out. I voted yes if only because I want my 50 whip PA's.

[FB Ice]

The game is fine, it was fine then and it's really fine now. Hybrid clases have more vesatility of gameplay, which means they more easily fit different situations. That's good. I used to solo all the time and Guntecher felt infinitely better for that than Gunmaster in my opinion. This server has really low latency compared to official and weapon swaps are nearly seemless. Abuse that. Freeze an enemy then switch to a cross bow or use megid to take out some robots then double pistol what's left.

Just because a class isn't meta doesn't mean they're not fun and it doesn't mean they're not viable. If you keep buffing everything to the top, you still end up with imbalance only then throw in power creep for good measure.

Just... play the game for fun... it's an easy game already. That or just let's give every class jabroga and revert it back to before it missed. Or ignore me and theory craft away, I just want my stance to be known and don't have any problem with all the suggestions that are constantly here.

[Exmover]

4 hours ago, FB Ice said:

The game is fine, it was fine then and it's really fine now. Hybrid clases have more vesatility of gameplay, which means they more easily fit different situations. That's good. I used to solo all the time and Guntecher felt infinitely better for that than Gunmaster in my opinion. This server has really low latency compared to official and weapon swaps are nearly seemless. Abuse that. Freeze an enemy then switch to a cross bow or use megid to take out some robots then double pistol what's left.

Just because a class isn't meta doesn't mean they're not fun and it doesn't mean they're not viable. If you keep buffing everything to the top, you still end up with imbalance only then throw in power creep for good measure.

Just... play the game for fun... it's an easy game already. That or just let's give every class jabroga and revert it back to before it missed. Or ignore me and theory craft away, I just want my stance to be known and don't have any problem with all the suggestions that are constantly here.

So, you main guntecher. Are you at capped right now? Since I think you're not. And do you know that GT has limited option for damaging multi hit box enemies? By this update if happen, GT will have access to 2nd part of infinite storm, strong lvl 50 shotguns, and powerful longbows, which make them more versatile than ever.

Edited August 27, 2019 by Exmover

[Kyo]

4 hours ago, FB Ice said:

The game is fine, it was fine then and it's really fine now. Hybrid clases have more vesatility of gameplay, which means they more easily fit different situations. That's good. I used to solo all the time and Guntecher felt infinitely better for that than Gunmaster in my opinion. This server has really low latency compared to official and weapon swaps are nearly seemless. Abuse that. Freeze an enemy then switch to a cross bow or use megid to take out some robots then double pistol what's left.

Just because a class isn't meta doesn't mean they're not fun and it doesn't mean they're not viable. If you keep buffing everything to the top, you still end up with imbalance only then throw in power creep for good measure.

Just... play the game for fun... it's an easy game already. That or just let's give every class jabroga and revert it back to before it missed. Or ignore me and theory craft away, I just want my stance to be known and don't have any problem with all the suggestions that are constantly here.

Bruh aren't you like level 10, shouldn't you get to clem end game before discussing balance that effects the game? Your opinion is objectively wrong and thats something amplified by this weekend of S4 Zeta runs. There are just certain class types that indefinitely add additional time to runs, this shouldn't be such an issue. I have spoken to GT and and FT that do not want to join high level runs due to fear of adding time to the runs which is true in 95% of the case. This isn't a player gameplay issue but just being limited by type, why would you not want to help types that are clearly struggling?

[FB Ice]

"Since we don't believe you're educated on a topic, we will not discuss your points"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authority_bias

What do you want me to say? I was capped on official and had 5,000+ hours in this game, but that's literally irrelevant. Either I'm wrong about power creep being an issue, and I'mma need a reason there as to why, or you're not actually giving me any points to contradict.

[Kyo]

Clem balance is not what official was like, so it is totally irrelevant. Try and play your GT in any semi efficient group and I guarantee you won't do anything but add time. Just because you're fine with it doesn't mean other players are.

[Exmover]

Post edited.

Edited August 27, 2019 by Exmover

[FB Ice]

3 minutes ago, Kyo said:

Clem balance is not what official was like, so it is totally irrelevant. Try and play your GT in any semi efficient group and I guarantee you won't do anything but add time. Just because you're fine with it doesn't mean other players are.

That is also not providing a reason why power creep would not affect the server.

Listen, I get that you guys don't like this opinion, and that's fine, but do me a favor and wait on starting a super off-topic discussion as to why here. What I'm typing will at least provide you guys with insight as to where I stand on this and why, and it will be in a much more fleshed out format than anything I can do here without derailing.

[Exmover]

17 minutes ago, FB Ice said:

That is also not providing a reason why power creep would not affect the server.

Listen, I get that you guys don't like this opinion, and that's fine, but do me a favor and wait on starting a super off-topic discussion as to why here. What I'm typing will at least provide you guys with insight as to where I stand on this and why, and it will be in a much more fleshed out format than anything I can do here without derailing.

What makes me ticked from your statement is this "just play the game for fun". This statement is indeed good for casual players, but you misplace yourself by putting that statement here. This post is about types on end game content mate.

As valen Stated, FM and AF has made bigger gap towards other types. I believe the very reason FM got CDF and Ultimate chain is to avoid the dependance of skadd. But this will create power creep for other classes, since FM will have more option for weapon.

AF got fuhrinkazan and gleaming trickster, which make them both more powerful on mobbing (include big mobs) and  bossing area. Also, they have lvl 4 incap claw. Which open the option of incap strategy.

This post is here to counteract that gap. And even with removal of those two weapons, other class (GM and FF excluded), still have gap to compete against them.

Edited August 27, 2019 by Exmover

[Valen]

24 minutes ago, FB Ice said:

That is also not providing a reason why power creep would not affect the server.

Listen, I get that you guys don't like this opinion, and that's fine, but do me a favor and wait on starting a super off-topic discussion as to why here. What I'm typing will at least provide you guys with insight as to where I stand on this and why, and it will be in a much more fleshed out format than anything I can do here without derailing.

It won't power creep the server because it's only increases the PA cap on Expert Types and not Master Types. You could make an argument for not increasing Acrofighter (for the reasons stated in the first post), but the other classes are so far behind currently, that increasing their cap would make the gap between them and Master Types smaller. The other Types should have a place in a party, but as it stands the only Types that are used in any kind of efficient group is Acrotecher, Fighmaster, Acrofighter, Gunmaster, and sometimes, but rarely, Protranser.

Edited August 27, 2019 by Valen

[Skinny Peen]

5 hours ago, FB Ice said:

The game is fine, it was fine then and it's really fine now. Hybrid clases have more vesatility of gameplay, which means they more easily fit different situations. That's good. I used to solo all the time and Guntecher felt infinitely better for that than Gunmaster in my opinion. This server has really low latency compared to official and weapon swaps are nearly seemless. Abuse that. Freeze an enemy then switch to a cross bow or use megid to take out some robots then double pistol what's left.

Just because a class isn't meta doesn't mean they're not fun and it doesn't mean they're not viable. If you keep buffing everything to the top, you still end up with imbalance only then throw in power creep for good measure.

Just... play the game for fun... it's an easy game already. That or just let's give every class jabroga and revert it back to before it missed. Or ignore me and theory craft away, I just want my stance to be known and don't have any problem with all the suggestions that are constantly here.

arent you under level 50 atm?

[white mist]

Will make the game more fun than it is now that's all I care about.

[Aelphasy]

9 hours ago, FB Ice said:

The game is fine, it was fine then and it's really fine now. Hybrid clases have more vesatility of gameplay, which means they more easily fit different situations. That's good. I used to solo all the time and Guntecher felt infinitely better for that than Gunmaster in my opinion. This server has really low latency compared to official and weapon swaps are nearly seemless. Abuse that. Freeze an enemy then switch to a cross bow or use megid to take out some robots then double pistol what's left.

Just because a class isn't meta doesn't mean they're not fun and it doesn't mean they're not viable. If you keep buffing everything to the top, you still end up with imbalance only then throw in power creep for good measure.

Just... play the game for fun... it's an easy game already. That or just let's give every class jabroga and revert it back to before it missed. Or ignore me and theory craft away, I just want my stance to be known and don't have any problem with all the suggestions that are constantly here.

I can tell you that the event revealed the poverty of the GT. Not that the class is bad (because the game is easy, you're right) but in the most difficult missions what matters is the control (SE, knockback...) and DPS : GT has neither one nor the other. The few who have the three gunnerclasses at level 20 will confirm it to you.

Btw GM better than FG for this event, 41+ rifles/as (and knockback, but shared with FG) make a good advantage when used properly.

[FB Ice]

1 minute ago, Aelphasy said:

I can tell you that the event revealed the poverty of the GT. Not that the class is bad (because the game is easy, you're right) but in the most difficult missions what matters is the control (SE, knockback...) and DPS : GT has neither one nor the other. The few who have the three gunnerclasses at level 20 will confirm it to you.

Btw GM better than FG for this event, 41+ rifles/as (and knockback, but shared with FG) make a good advantage when used properly.

I mean I remember during Dengeki where as Gunmaster I could solo the extreme difficulty quest where every enemy one shots and at the end two carraguines chase you. They may have been the only class in the game that could pull that off, but a class having a time and place to shine is fine. For GunTekker I would primarily take the class on my beast to missions like Scarred Planet to solo.

Soloing bosses has never been super viable unless you're overleveled aside from melee classes, which is kind of their forte. MasterForce excels in nuking entire rooms and spreading status effects while they do it, but they're a turret with no health. For sheer crowd control, no class can really compete with EX traps of PT. If anything the fact that these classes aren't decent in certain scenarios just provides depth of gameplay, not restricts it. Now you have a reason to play multiple classes which in my experience is one of the only things fending off burnout. In fact if it weren't for Dengeki mentioned earlier I wouldn't have ever played Gunmaster, yet there I was leveling rifle bullets to 50.

I never got to play jp servers. I'd like to at least see what all those changes were about before I jump the gun and call them trash.