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Grenade launcher: Improvement or downgrade?

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With the most recent update, it brought sone problems and unusual improvements. I was surprised to see how efficient Grenade launchers are without knockback and only flinch. With Gunmaster, this gives us a more liable option of dealing with groups of mobs if the launcher fires horizontally (works great with Genocide Bunker). However, this may have been an oversight as Grenade launchers suppose to knock enemies back.

Grenade launcher with knockback also interrupts other players, such as techers and fighters. If a grenade is launched in a group of mobs with knockback, it dismantle the formation, causing certain techniques to be insufficient and interrupts the combo of fighters.

As Grenade launchers are now, this won't happen as the enemies will stay in place. With that in mind, should things stay the same? Personally, it's a major improvement when played as Gunmaster.

 

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Final note on GM with Grenades. I am fine with this honestly. That is not a problem for me. The major issue I have would be we are making grenades perform more like Ra techs now. The Laser Cannon already provides something similar to techs in the piercing category Shotguns and Rifles cause flinch. GM has twin handguns for strafing. I would think they would want the knockdown/knockback for grenades as well. To provide something a little different to their class of weapons. 

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7 hours ago, ADA said:

With the most recent update, it brought sone problems and unusual improvements. I was surprised to see how efficient Grenade launchers are without knockback and only flinch. With Gunmaster, this gives us a more liable option of dealing with groups of mobs if the launcher fires horizontally (works great with Genocide Bunker). However, this may have been an oversight as Grenade launchers suppose to knock enemies back.

Grenade launcher with knockback also interrupts other players, such as techers and fighters. If a grenade is launched in a group of mobs with knockback, it dismantle the formation, causing certain techniques to be insufficient and interrupts the combo of fighters.

As Grenade launchers are now, this won't happen as the enemies will stay in place. With that in mind, should things stay the same? Personally, it's a major improvement when played as Gunmaster.

 

I always feel bad when I use a grenade launcher when other players are trying to get an attack in, so the way things are now is much better for me.

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8 hours ago, stinkyfish97 said:

So what you are saying is gernades perform more like Ra spells now? I will have to try them out o see if I like them or not. I never really used grenades for their knockback on smaller enemies, I used them mostly against Gol Dolva, Kog Nad's, Jarbas, Seed Vitace, Carriguine. I cannot recall if it caused them to fall over or not i think it depended on the angle you hit them with the grenade? I definitely remember them flinching and being knocked back from taking grenades head on though. But if the new animation only causes flinching and not knockback/knockdown I think I would be disappointed. Because for me Knockdown/Knockback there are not to many options for gunners to do this. Machinegun has 1 bullet to do this; the bow has 1 bullet to do this. But after that Grenades were the only other bullet to cause a knockdown effect. 

 

The reason I would want the knockdown/knockback is because I already have other weapons that cause flinch. I play as a PT and the shotgun and bow cause flinch to smaller/med enemies but not to Jarbas or some of the larger enemies. And while I have the ability to stumble bigger enemies via Sword or other melee, really the only bullet weapon to cause Flinch to large enemies was the Grenade Launcher. So once I try it out I will let you know. Personally I would rather see the knockback/knockdown and being able to stumble Jarbas, Knockdown seed Vitace, or stumbling some of the larger enemies. Because see the way I play is I will target the Jarba's while I let the other players in the party clean up the smaller enemies. Also Svaltus were very susceptible to the grenade knockdown/knockback affect. You could keep these guys stun locked while the rest of the crew focus's on the other enemies. 

 

For one GM never had access to Grenades but now that they do we are changing the way the grenades work so that it works solely for that class. I personally think the knockback effect adds a different dimension to crowd control, especially when soloing. To me it would be like changing the techs so Ra spells no longer cause flinch but instead they are more like the Laser Cannon where they can pierce but not really great for crowd control. I would say leave the Knockback/Knockdown for grenades, especially since they are useful for controlling larger enemies and not just smaller ones. I know the Knockback is annoying on smaller enemies while running in a group. But not every weapon should be used in every situation. 

There definitely will be some down falls to maintaining this adjustment compared to the old knock back, but remember that Gunmaster only have guns. We can't switch to any melee weapon with similar functionality and PT have a large variety of weapons to choose from. As Gunmaster, we would often use the shotgun all the time and not great for crowd control when 5 or more monsters were coming my way. Now, we have a crowd control function thanks to the grenades changing. I don't know a whole lot about PT, but I'm sure traps and many other weapons could easily replace any functionality lost by the changes to grenade launcher. Personally, I would like to see knockdown added, but this has the potential of making Grenade launcher too power with weapons like Genocide Bunker or anything that shoots horizontally. 

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I stay at my position about grenade launcher, like I told you in game : he should stay on the FG, and the laser cannon should need some change, like became a good weapon for bosses and less situational (= allow it to pierce and hit multipart/increase the hitbox range, because the weapon is made for the aligned enemies but for 95% of the time, the enemies are NEVER aligned, and its worst when you play in party)

That said, I think the purpose of grenade launcher is to make fortegunner good against bosses. That's my feel, and so the knockback is ok, even if its annoying against small or in party.

Basically what bothers me is that we try to find a solution so that GM is good in AoE: and the solution we have it, its the laser cannon, but like said above, absurdly situationnal.

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Giver Lasers the ranger of silcers - with soo many fighters / or party members knock things everywhere. in a pt laser are only used... ummm 3% of the time.

Do whatever you want with Grenades

I think its time PT / GM / MF got a travel pa.... Im tired of being 45seconds behind - or still in b1 when the travel party at b2 when some missions makes you back track after a key...........

Or hell. change the travel pa to 150 PP per use, this way it wont be spammed for long distance. but just to get needed head start those classes need for set up.

Edited by Light

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10 or 15% movement speed increase is also a fair compromise. Switching to a weap just for move faster is nothing more than a shitty gamedesign (with exception time to time, depending the game but not here)

About the laser, that is definitely the way they should look into.

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Here is the thing. GM already has higher ATP and ACC than PT does and nearly the same ATP and ACC as a ForteGunner. They also get a bonus firerate increase, access to lvl 41+ bullets which add quite a lot more damage modifiers to all their guns. I am fine with them being the best gunner class in the game, but now they outclass every other gunner class by a good margin.  

 

So while everyone makes valid points about GM not having crowd control weapon. I feel like they now are too powerful. When you combine that firerate increase + lvl 50 bullets + higher ATP/ATA base over other gunner classes (4% less ATP modifier over Fortegunner which is made up for by lvl 50 Bullets). That kind of makes the other gunner classes way outclassed at this point. I think Sega knew that and that is why they never gave GM grenades in the first place. Because it would have thrown the other classes out of balance where they would have to of changed a lot of other stats. 

 

I mean what happens you increase ATP/ACC for the rest of the gunner types: PT, GT, FG. But then that throws them out of balance to other classes. But hey maybe that is the solution. Either lower ATP a bit on GM to bring them more in line with other gunners or I do not know what else you could do. 

I am fine if you want to give GM grenades, but how about we lower the overall ATP/ATA of those grenades after 41+ because combined with higher firerate and access to lvl 50 bullets it makes them far superior with Grenades now. Grenades for instance go from 27% element at 31-40 up to 39% at 41+ (12% element increase). Grenades also gain an additional 40% ATP modifier after 41+. They now outclass the any other gunner class with Grenades by a very large margin when you combine that firerate increase and all the base stat bonuses, they have highest ATP modifier after Fortegunner. Might as well skip being a ForteGunner all together. The only thing that class has going for it now is access to lvl 20 skills. You might as well play as PT is that is the case. 

Edited by stinkyfish97

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The comparison between GM and PT don't have sens : PT is about control, traps, and it has hunter weaps can use spears and so skadd.

Also, I don't know if you play with some good GT on the server, but GM dont "outclass other gunner class by a good margin" and especially not GT. It's "better", but not by far (and still its hard to compare hybrid and specialist class)

About grenade launcher on GM : I want it to be remove, if the laser improvment is considered. Main reason is : all gunners I know want to switch FG time to time. But with nades on GM, the class is "useless" rn.

And again, I don't get why you compare PT with any other class. Plus it's not a gunner class.

Edited by Aelphasy

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Just coming at it from my perspective. You are right it is not fair to compare PT to GM. I do play PT just as you suggest, its a support class for sure. That is why I was not happy about the Grenades not having knockback anymore. It takes away one of my supports. And while it is made up for by ex traps and hunter weapons. It makes for a further gap between classes. 

And when I try to look at it from other gunner perspectives. FG is made worthless. You might as well play PT and have access to hunter weapons and ex traps and skip FG all together; unless you absolutely have to have a rifle. Then you can argue do you need s-rank? Because GT looks pretty good with A-rank rifles and S-rank bows. Plus the crossbow is the best offhand gun in the game. 

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I am sure they will find some solution. Or you could just not care because we are all far too powerful to begin with anyways. LOL. I mean if you are maxed out as any class in this game you are a force to be reckoned with. 

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Fortegunner can be useless for all I care because it's an expert class while Gunmaster is a...wait for it...a -->MASTER<-- class. Fortegunner is a downgrade in DPS compared to Gunmaster regardless if Gunmaster can use GLs or not. It's like back before master classes came out how Fortegunners wouldn't go back to Ranger because it's a...wait for it..................................DOWNGRADE IN DPS!!!

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You know that classes can be viable for reasons other than DPS, right? One might opt to play a Fortegunner over a Gunmaster because of higher survivability or better utility. By giving GM grenades, you damage some of fGs utility. Part of what made PSU fun to play (and PSO2 NOT fun) was that it wasn't entirely about DPS. Utility can actually make a notable difference.

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My two cents:

FGs are not even invalidated by GMs having access to Launchers. 
FGs have: More traps, Travel PA, Skadd option for Cast/Beast FGs, Higher damage output than GMs with a near identical armory like GMs.

With lasers having their hitboxes still wonky, it is much easier, and less of a hassle to just give GMs a launcher for another aoe option and actual bossing rather than using a lmao shotgun or trying to create an ENTIRELY new piece of code to make lasers hit multi-box and or plus piercing.

Twin Pistols are hardly ever viable for what? Strafing while doing damage? Just position yourself properly with a laser. Rifles? Niche uses for either Killer Shot or hitting something with a single box- which in most cases, you'll be using a shotgun anyway.  Even then, shotguns are the only real option you've got in most cases because they're the only thing on GM that even does any reliable damage, but you're often being knocked back when you're trying to even use it.

GMs are not only slower by comparison, but have limited access to any worthwhile traps.

No one is trying to invalidate FG cause hey, WT has access to axes and FF or FM aren't useless.  Definite Downgrade not only giving people another option to play GMs, but just in general to the long term viability of the class itself.

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I underestimated the fortegunner. It is true that it is for the moment a bit better than GM (not by far, since the attack speed and PA 41+ still have a significant impact)

But I don't feel that the solution is just to give a weapon to GM. If it's possible, I'd prefer a "when used by a GM (laser with more width/and something good for twin handguns), this weapon do that, in addition to attack speed" solution.

Reason is to have a real reason to play GM, a class that has only 4 weapons, but with different specificities than other gunners classes.

Edited by Aelphasy

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My two cents.

Despite now main FG (well I use FG, GT, and GM), I'm against the idea of removing GL from GM. Firstly, I find it funny that most people think that launcher is supposed to be GM's other source of main damage, since it isn't. Bosses are exception to this case tho.

To the topic. Even with big damage from launchers, it's purpose is supposedly to blow mobs away, or knock some big enemies down (ardite, drua, etc.). Even further with proper FPS, net and good PC, one can flinch non-knockable mobs down to death with launchers (Vitace). I know it's annoying by some people when a gunner randomly throws launchers and melee type (and shotgun user) has to move again in order to reach already dispersed mobs, but there has to be a reason behind it

Its relation to GM? The only role for GM right now is one: Kill enemies as fast as possible before enemies kills you, since for big enemies, you have to constantly deal damage with shotguns while also take damage from them. Really nerfing versatility and efficiency of using GMs.

P.S I know right now any bullet weapon can't knock and blow. It's a bug. I believe clem's team is trying to fix this

Edited by Exmover

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11 hours ago, Exmover said:

P.S I know right now any bullet weapon can't knock and blow. It's a bug. I believe clem's team is trying to fix this 

High level rifle bullets are where GMs get their crowd control, due to the knockdown they have. It's been a while since I played -- Is this currently bugged too?

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On 7/22/2019 at 12:28 PM, ADA said:

With the most recent update, it brought sone problems and unusual improvements. I was surprised to see how efficient Grenade launchers are without knockback and only flinch. With Gunmaster, this gives us a more liable option of dealing with groups of mobs if the launcher fires horizontally (works great with Genocide Bunker). However, this may have been an oversight as Grenade launchers suppose to knock enemies back.

Grenade launcher with knockback also interrupts other players, such as techers and fighters. If a grenade is launched in a group of mobs with knockback, it dismantle the formation, causing certain techniques to be insufficient and interrupts the combo of fighters.

As Grenade launchers are now, this won't happen as the enemies will stay in place. With that in mind, should things stay the same? Personally, it's a major improvement when played as Gunmaster.

 

Honestly I disagree with you...

In first place, this is the 1st time that I've heard about techers or fighters complaining about the knockback or flinch effect of grenade launchers. Plus I've played with FI (Basically the only melee, although more than a melee is a true hybrid of melee & ranged) with Grenades and no one has told me about not using Grenade Launchers while they deal their damage. It's more, even techers are happy to it since the knockback / flinch effects aren't too powerful in comparison with the infamous Tornado Dance, which is mainly forbidden vs small enemies for the main reason that the knockback distance of that PA is too high for ignoring it (Of course, you can still use in bigger enemies).

For me the main problem of grenades is not if they must have knockbacks or not. The main problem of grenades is that Boma Duranga is bugged. That bullet is bugged because that bullet is supposed to substract for each hit which you deal with the PA, a PA which should be near the same than the Regrant tech since both, the Boma Duranga & Regrant, has Damage Reflected as a special effect.

Furthermore, and unless that PA is fixed, there are basically no reasons to use the elemental projectiles since they're ridiculously weak in comparison with the "OP" bugged Boma Duranga. It's the same that you're dealing always critical hits of elemental bullets, but against every enemy type, not just a certain type.

In second place, I'm very happy of removing Grenades from GMs. I was fed up of seeing every GM with the grenades, with the addition of very few Fortegunners ingame because the grenades. Although certain Fortegunners were carrying the Black Rebellion rifle & other certain As which GMs couldn't use, that thing was seen by a few ammount of ppl, meaning that the popularity of the Fortegunner (Which doesn't mean they're completely useless) is based in the Grenades.

On 8/15/2019 at 12:46 AM, MemeDreem said:

My two cents:

FGs are not even invalidated by GMs having access to Launchers. 
FGs have: More traps, Travel PA, Skadd option for Cast/Beast FGs...

Oh, and then I see about Dus Skadd in FG...

Dus Skadd, unless GAS or similar thing appears to give FGs lvl 21+ in the melee PAs, is not mostly used in Clementine since the significantly ammount of damage between lvl 20 and lvl 21+, not being a popular weapon in a FG. Perhaps the most popular melee attack which I've seen while playing with another FGs is Infinite Storm, in comparison with the Crossbow because Zagenga and lvl 31+ bullets. In other cases, I don't have seen a FG using Dus Skadd, or not at least when FGs can't reach the 3rd combo. And the 3rd combo gives a significantly ammount of damage for thinking if Skadd is really useful with just 2 combo hits.

On 8/15/2019 at 12:46 AM, MemeDreem said:

My two cents:

No one is trying to invalidate FG cause hey, WT has access to axes and FF or FM aren't useless.

Basically you forget that the only reason for using WT is if you want to use the whips (Especially the best one, which is A) rather than other weapons. Axes in WT aren't popular since other classes can have a better usage of it. Even the PT, which deals lesser damage than the WT because they have lesser ATP and lvl 30 rather than lvl 40, can combine the axe with the traps, making it a deadly combo since freezing with the EX traps avoids many zeroes which can be made if you hit in normal circunstances.

On 8/15/2019 at 12:35 AM, Miyoko said:

You know that classes can be viable for reasons other than DPS, right? One might opt to play a Fortegunner over a Gunmaster because of higher survivability or better utility. By giving GM grenades, you damage some of fGs utility. Part of what made PSU fun to play (and PSO2 NOT fun) was that it wasn't entirely about DPS. Utility can actually make a notable difference.

I agree. Even if a long distance deals lesser damage than melee, there are a certain point which you must choose to attack from closed ranged, mid ranged or long ranged depending of the class which you carry...

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When the gl will recover its knockback and duranga will work WITH its penalty (hp drain) no one will ask the gl for the gm, I'm sure of it.

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22 hours ago, Aelphasy said:

When the gl will recover its knockback and duranga will work WITH its penalty (hp drain) no one will ask the gl for the gm, I'm sure of it.

well, maga can be decent alternative 🙂

It's a good support bullet PA, if it works properly ofc

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Would love to have the launchers return to the GM arsenal >:) ❤️ 

So many friends, or random groups I'll come across are using close quarters staby-stab weapons, or tossing some crazy voodoo magic out there, I hardly been seeing much grenades being used 😕 but when I do see one, they just whip it out for a Large//Boss enemy's and that's it ….  shows over cash me outside.

 

I want to go to town with that sexy weapon   

(>^,^)>{SRank:GL} +==<==<==<==<==<==<==<==@ small mobs = {Dead} 

 

 

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