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milranduil

Raising PA Caps (GAS-like) for non-master classes

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Posted (edited)

Since GAS allowed for raising a lot of PA caps on non-master classes, I was thinking about a good way to maybe do this in a "balanced" sort of way without just raising +10 on everything. Since most classes could do +10 on 4-5 different weapons comfortably at the time (depending a little on race), I personally think it would be cool to maybe raise PAs/bullets/techs by 5 across the board. For specific cases, it may be a good idea to raise by the full 10 due to limited point usage (e.g. AT whips). So for example:

AF - PA 40->45, bullet 30->35

AT - PA 20->30, bullet 20->25, attack tech 30->35

fT - bullet 30->35, attack tech 40->45 (hard to gauge this one)

FI - PA 40->45, bullet 30->35

fF - PA 40->45, bullet 20->25(30? only handgun)

fG - PA 20->25, bullet 40->45

WT - PA 40->45, bullet 20->25, attack tech 30->35

GT - PA 10->15, bullet 40->45, attack tech 30->35

PT - PA 30->35, bullet 40->45

Since so many people are masterclass focused, I think it would give other classes a nice little boost and incentive to play more with GAS-esque PA limits, particularly for bullets with the increased element %.

What do you think?

Edited by milranduil

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So this came up in the discord the other day. Instead of typing a big thing, I'm gonna copy and past (and tidy a little bit) up of what I said:

Adding PA levels to a cap, even just one, would probably fudge the balance pretty hard. You'd have to do a lot of other small things to compensate, and that would be -extremely- difficult.

The first and most obvious part of this is that masters would get the short end of the stick. If you're gonna give all the classes +1 PA, then you need to give masters something to compensate. One of the major draws of the master classes is that they can get higher PAs so... What do you do then? Boost their ATP? IF so, by how much? Do you give them more weapon types? A bigger speed boost? Any one of these you pick, someone might like, but someone else might find useless. An added danger to that is that, for any single one of these changes, PA level cap included, you start stepping on the toes of other classes. It would be dangerously easy to make a class obsolete through one single change, much like how people feel Fortegunner feels due to giving Gunmasters grenades.


GAS was nice because it let you work around it to your liking. But without that... It's tough. PA levels are a huge part of a classes draw, so even adding 1 level would be a monumental change. I personally would not want a large sweeping change like this, purely to avoid the homogenization of classes. Part of the joy of the game is that classes feel so different, getting rid of that makes them feel less special.

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Posted (edited)
23 minutes ago, Miyoko said:

So this came up in the discord the other day. Instead of typing a big thing, I'm gonna copy and past (and tidy a little bit) up of what I said:

Adding PA levels to a cap, even just one, would probably fudge the balance pretty hard. You'd have to do a lot of other small things to compensate, and that would be -extremely- difficult.

The first and most obvious part of this is that masters would get the short end of the stick. If you're gonna give all the classes +1 PA, then you need to give masters something to compensate. One of the major draws of the master classes is that they can get higher PAs so... What do you do then? Boost their ATP? IF so, by how much? Do you give them more weapon types? A bigger speed boost? Any one of these you pick, someone might like, but someone else might find useless. An added danger to that is that, for any single one of these changes, PA level cap included, you start stepping on the toes of other classes. It would be dangerously easy to make a class obsolete through one single change, much like how people feel Fortegunner feels due to giving Gunmasters grenades.


GAS was nice because it let you work around it to your liking. But without that... It's tough. PA levels are a huge part of a classes draw, so even adding 1 level would be a monumental change. I personally would not want a large sweeping change like this, purely to avoid the homogenization of classes. Part of the joy of the game is that classes feel so different, getting rid of that makes them feel less special.

There are parts of this I agree with and disagree with.

I agree that ideally increasing PA cap should come with other niche changes for master classes to give them power in a different way than Lv50 (or 45) PAs. However, GAS was a very involved system, and there's a big -if- here on whether it's even possible for clem. Because of that, you have to consider alternate ways to implement pieces of it that made a big difference, but aren't terribly complicated, this being one of them. I also agree GM should never have gotten nades; that to me was just a poor decision, nothing more to say in that regard.  

I disagree that balance would be fudged harder than it already is currently. FM currently has JP post-buff dus skadd, and when it gets its correct larger hitbox, will be even more broken. MF relies on limit break to be relevant for bossing/mini-bosses, so that's a different issue completely. GM with shotgun buff is doing great, it was struggling a bit to be relevant in JP for the final several years. Other classes relied heavily on PA cap increase post-supplemental update to stay relevant (save for like 1 change made to GT or WT a while ago? I can't remember) along with unique weapons (e.g. twin dil edge). I also disagree that using the default allowed GAS customization classes had access to lets classes step on any others' toes. fF could get 50 slicers, but no s-ranks, fF could get 50 skadd, but no speed boost, fT could get 50 attack techs, but no speed boost (MF only limit break foie/diga is more complicated, and doesn't work anyway for now). I'd say the biggest thing to avoid would be letting fT not have 50 buffs, but I don't think you could do that anyway to begin with. GAS was damage techs only as far as I can recall (and a quick look at sakura also says attack techs). 

I would argue that classes gained more identity with the increased PA caps rather than blending together. Choosing +10 to the weapons you want is of course ideal, but we'll probably need to make some compromises if we want anything GAS related down the road. That's the point of this discussion (or at least what I intended for).

Edited by milranduil

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Much like some of the quests that are gone forever, We don't really have much anything pertaining to GAS as far as the actual stuff goes. We'll have to completely make some work around for it from scratch, and that'll be a bit distant in the future most likely.

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19 minutes ago, milranduil said:

There are parts of this I agree with and disagree with.

I agree that ideally increasing PA cap should come with other niche changes for master classes to give them power in a different way than Lv50 (or 45) PAs. However, GAS was a very involved system, and there's a big -if- here on whether it's even possible for clem. Because of that, you have to consider alternate ways to implement pieces of it that made a big difference, but aren't terribly complicated, this being one of them. I also agree GM should never have gotten nades; that to me was just a poor decision, nothing more to say in that regard.  

I disagree that balance would be fudged harder than it already is currently. FM currently has JP post-buff dus skadd, and when it gets its correct larger hitbox, will be even more broken. MF relies on limit break to be relevant for bossing/mini-bosses, so that's a different huge completely. GM with shotgun buff is doing great. Other classes relied heavily on PA cap increase post-supplemental update to stay relevant (save for like 1 change made to GT or WT a while ago? I can't remember) along with unique weapons (e.g. twin dil edge). I also disagree that using the default allowed GAS customization classes had access to lets classes step on any others' toes. fF could get 50 slicers, but no s-ranks, fF could get 50 skadd, but no speed boost, fT could get 50 attack techs, but no speed boost (MF only limit break foie/diga is more complicated, and doesn't work anyway for now). I'd say the biggest thing to avoid would be letting fT not have 50 buffs, but I don't think you could do that anyway to begin with. GAS was damage techs only as far as I can recall (and a quick look at sakura also says attack techs). 

I would argue that classes gained more identity with the increased PA caps rather than blending together. Choosing +10 to the weapons you want is of course ideal, but we'll probably need to make some compromises if we want anything GAS related down the road. That's the point of this discussion (or at least what I intended for).

besides giving pa level cap increase,  they could give proper buffs to pa's. who really used pa's like Bogga Robado after it received a buff.

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1 hour ago, milranduil said:

There are parts of this I agree with and disagree with.

I agree that ideally increasing PA cap should come with other niche changes for master classes to give them power in a different way than Lv50 (or 45) PAs. However, GAS was a very involved system, and there's a big -if- here on whether it's even possible for clem. Because of that, you have to consider alternate ways to implement pieces of it that made a big difference, but aren't terribly complicated, this being one of them. I also agree GM should never have gotten nades; that to me was just a poor decision, nothing more to say in that regard.  

I disagree that balance would be fudged harder than it already is currently. FM currently has JP post-buff dus skadd, and when it gets its correct larger hitbox, will be even more broken. MF relies on limit break to be relevant for bossing/mini-bosses, so that's a different issue completely. GM with shotgun buff is doing great, it was struggling a bit to be relevant in JP for the final several years. Other classes relied heavily on PA cap increase post-supplemental update to stay relevant (save for like 1 change made to GT or WT a while ago? I can't remember) along with unique weapons (e.g. twin dil edge). I also disagree that using the default allowed GAS customization classes had access to lets classes step on any others' toes. fF could get 50 slicers, but no s-ranks, fF could get 50 skadd, but no speed boost, fT could get 50 attack techs, but no speed boost (MF only limit break foie/diga is more complicated, and doesn't work anyway for now). I'd say the biggest thing to avoid would be letting fT not have 50 buffs, but I don't think you could do that anyway to begin with. GAS was damage techs only as far as I can recall (and a quick look at sakura also says attack techs). 

I would argue that classes gained more identity with the increased PA caps rather than blending together. Choosing +10 to the weapons you want is of course ideal, but we'll probably need to make some compromises if we want anything GAS related down the road. That's the point of this discussion (or at least what I intended for).

 

Well, It’s true GAS was a good design just for having PAs/Bullets/Techs at lvl 50 depending of the class that you were, but I disagree in certain points which I’ve seen in those posts. 

In first place, GT & WT were just a homogenized version of the FG & FF with just Megistar lvl 3. Yes, obviously, GT has got S-Rank Crossbows and WT was the only class who were able to reach lvl 50 PAs in whips, making a good choice for people who wanted the whip rather than the slicer in FF. However, no one who used those two classes used the offensive techs, making an useless option for a player buying lvl 40 offensive techs since they were too expensive of buying it, plus people, since they focused in full ranged / melee, rather than increasing the offensive techs, used in other things like having resistances or, iirc, having certain styles like Elemental Burst. Obviously, they were “better” or “the best” since the TAs. But in those two cases, as a class design, they were a purely failure since those classes, finally, were a clone of the Forte Classes. 

That’s because I consider those two classes should have as by default lvl 35 (Or lvl 31+ if you consider it) in offensive techs for being useful in mixing ranged / melee with the techs. 

In second place, especially for you Milraundil, since I’ve seen the FT changes, perhaps you should lower slightly the TP of the FT at lvl 20 for not overrating the MF… or increasing slightly the TP of the MF, although another option which you can deal is… for example, giving a bonus of TP (I prefer 50% of the TP transferred to the ATP although a 25% can be enough) while using only bows & cards for giving a chance of seeing more FTs which use the physical ranged weapons for enemies who greatly resist the techs, or at least imo. 

The only thing which I’d like, or at least imo is… seeing with those changes, hybrids mixing styles (I’m already doing it with the FI, and that class is great as a hybrid, especially if they receive lvl 31+ bullets), forte classes being a bulky version of melee / ranged / tech users and acroes being useful with its own specialization (Honestly, AF should have a hidden bonus in one handed weapons since the main focus of that class is those weapons, although in practice very few AFs use it as a main weapon rather than the two handed weapons for obvious reasons). 

And finally, honestly, although I know about having GAS or anything similar is important for the users for increasing the efficient of the non-master classes ingame, I think they should have started with those limits mentioned in the post if Clementine doesn’t have data of GAS. 

Greetings. 

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Posted (edited)

I think 41+ even to only 45 might tip the balance of power of forte classes compared to their master class counter parts. If a person had fortegunner and gunmaster leveled to a point where their atp was equal but fG had a 45 bullet to a GMs 50, wouldn't their damage not be to far off from each other?  Not sure how close their damage %s would be then. I think it would be too close. Maybe I'm wrong though. Why be GM over fG then? Lose some speed but gain more  power. Be fortes for less risk. Also 41 means stronger SE. A level 5 rifle bullet should be GM territory for example.

Something like bullets for AT , fF, and fT does seem reasonable. As well for other classes to pick up some of their lower PA caps as opposed to making their strongest abilities even stronger.

 

Edited by Core
Grammar

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since i was censored earlier when i was posting while at work, af doesn't need a hidden buff. it has one. its called 20 percent speed buff to single handed weps and 10 percent speed for two handed weps, please stop asking for buffs to things you have no clue on.

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3 hours ago, Core said:

I think 41+ even to only 45 might tip the balance of power of forte classes compared to their master class counter parts. If a person had fortegunner and gunmaster leveled to a point where their atp was equal but fG had a 45 bullet to a GMs 50, wouldn't their damage not be to far off from each other?  Not sure how close their damage %s would be then. I think it would be too close. Maybe I'm wrong though. Why be GM over fG then? Lose some speed but gain more  power. Be fortes for less risk. Also 41 means stronger SE. A level 5 rifle bullet should be GM territory for example.

Something like bullets for AT , fF, and fT does seem reasonable. As well for other classes to pick up some of their lower PA caps as opposed to making their strongest abilities even stronger.

 

Did you play JP at all? fG shotgun pull did do more damage than a GM, that's how it was with GAS. GM's attack speed more than makes up for it though, that's the + of playing GM. You played fG if you wanted access to melee weps or nade launcher, or GM if you just wanted faster bullets shotgun/laser.

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This change isn't hard work. It's just changing a few numbers in a file. I think it's definitely worth doing. 

Anyone who argues master classes get the short end of the stick here, OBVIOUSLY that is the point of this. This is to give incentive for people to play the other classes and not be hindered. That is how balance works. Fighmaster is already going faster through a mission than any other class. They don't need any further incentive for playing the class. Gunmaster and masterforce were already buffed, let's get some love for the rest of the classes.

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I didn't get to play JP servers so it looks like I've missed out on quite a lot of enchantments that it offered. Even especially from GAS which I'm just now seeing what it can offer.

GM I want to say I used , but it must not have been alot so I can't remember. I just remember them being a bit difficult for me to play mostly do to lack of good S rank equipment. I liked having a xbow (ice) along with an elemental saber for some of the tougher ranged resistant enemies from fG though. Hopefully I'll get GM soon and see some of what I was missing .

 

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6 hours ago, Seed Express said:

This change isn't hard work. It's just changing a few numbers in a file. I think it's definitely worth doing. 

Anyone who argues master classes get the short end of the stick here, OBVIOUSLY that is the point of this. This is to give incentive for people to play the other classes and not be hindered. That is how balance works. Fighmaster is already going faster through a mission than any other class. They don't need any further incentive for playing the class. Gunmaster and masterforce were already buffed, let's get some love for the rest of the classes.

Oh yes...

Basically in any party you'll find at least one Master Class user, being the most common one the FM. Since GMs has obtained Grenades, that class has outdated a lot of the FG in basically all terms. Yes, ofc that class can still do anything if they receive lvl 21+ in melee since Skadd, but until that moment, GM >>>> FG. In MF case, it's not hard to find one since there are obvious reasons for seeing rarely a FT above than lvl 10 in a party.

Although for the non-master classes, excluding the AT & PT for obvious reasons, FF is still a common choice for the people because other melee weapons which can't be used by FMs, generally non-master classes (Especially the hybrids) are in a disadvantage which can be caught quickly when you play S missions or above.

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On 6/11/2019 at 6:43 PM, Seed Express said:

This change isn't hard work. It's just changing a few numbers in a file. I think it's definitely worth doing. 

Anyone who argues master classes get the short end of the stick here, OBVIOUSLY that is the point of this. This is to give incentive for people to play the other classes and not be hindered. That is how balance works. Fighmaster is already going faster through a mission than any other class. They don't need any further incentive for playing the class. Gunmaster and masterforce were already buffed, let's get some love for the rest of the classes.

I 2nd this. We have all these classes and everyone deviates to the master classes. Obviously, there is a considerable advantage over the other classes. I like Guntecher, but the massive advantage Gunmaster has over it makes me not want to use the class. The hybrid classes brought different playability, but seems like a sacrifice to use anything besides master classes. With the shotgun boost and nade launcher addition.... just forget about it.

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1 hour ago, ADA said:

I 2nd this. We have all these classes and everyone deviates to the master classes. Obviously, there is a considerable advantage over the other classes. I like Guntecher, but the massive advantage Gunmaster has over it makes me not want to use the class. The hybrid classes brought different playability, but seems like a sacrifice to use anything besides master classes. With the shotgun boost and nade launcher addition.... just forget about it.

Well, if you played many runs in S - S2, the last thing which you'll see is hybrid classes for obvious reasons. Yes, you can find some of them in B & A for unlocking master classes, but very few playing it over lvl 10 and playing it mainly since they lack the resources to mix their styles. For seeing WTs just using Renzan Seidan-Ga, you'll prefer FF above that class. The only viable hybrid atm is FI since it does have a good variety of blades & guns for even not being jealously by the Master Classes. And ofc, WT & GT without lvl 31+ techs can't be good hybrids...

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I haven't got to play as much recently, but what I have started to play of GM, I can see the very noticeable change in speed from fortegunner that I was playing. (That rifle speed 😮  )  There's also quite a number of existing videos of the master classes showing their power on the old JP servers. I thought these + PA bonuses would make other classes too strong, but I think it's more to help non masters close the gap (If only a little) in effectiveness. So if the PSU mods would care to consider PA boosts, then I for one would be all for it.  I can see leveling PAs being a bit easier at least this way. Masters are strong, but damn do they drain PP in exchange. So leveling a rifle bullet for example would be a little easier for getting 41-45 because of their reduced bullet cost so more shots per rifle. IMO anyway.

Seed Express had it on point on this.

On 6/11/2019 at 5:43 PM, Seed Express said:

This change isn't hard work. It's just changing a few numbers in a file. I think it's definitely worth doing. 

Anyone who argues master classes get the short end of the stick here, OBVIOUSLY that is the point of this. This is to give incentive for people to play the other classes and not be hindered. That is how balance works. Fighmaster is already going faster through a mission than any other class. They don't need any further incentive for playing the class. Gunmaster and masterforce were already buffed, let's get some love for the rest of the classes.

 

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