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A small update


Gnome
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This is unfortunate and a huge loss to the community.

If you're reading this Marm, a person's worth is way more than one project. A project's worth is way more than some stolen files. I have no doubt that it stings right now, and rightfully so given all the years and time put into this. But you'll move on, and you'll have a lot to show for what you've put in. There's a ton of life lessons from how to manage a community, how to run a project, how to communicate to various groups, the important of work-life balance and so on that will stay with you for the rest of your life. No theft can possibly take that from you.

As for Gnome and everyone else on the Clem crew, Clem is still the OG. It's not easy to look through someone else's code and make it fly. Right now everyone's accounts are here, their card exchanges are here, their gear is here and so on. As long as the update pipeline is healthy and there's communication with the playerbase, it's going to be very hard for a new server to gain ground unless their approach is different. That's still a lot of work involved, but it's a very comfortable lead.

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I'm not around here often or get to play PSU much but I'm extremely sympathetic to what Marmalade is going through. I've been in that spot before and continue to be in my own community. I apologize for what you go through. It's never easy running a community or a game server. Everything you do is under scrutiny or constant view by players grateful or not. It's rough being put into a position of blame when none should be placed on you.

The data leak is troubling, especially to hear it coming from a fellow PSOBB community Development team really stings a little. I apologize for that. I know if anybody stole what me and my fellow developers were working on we'd be devastated. On behalf of Schthack PSO Development and Administration, you have our condolences and any support you need now or in the future you will always have from us, you have but to ask us. Apologies for your trouble with some members of the PSO community.

Be well and happy. Rest up and live your lives.

-Schthack Administrator and Developer, Varista

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I'm sorry to hear the news about Marmalade (I hope their health improves, as much as is possible). It absolutely is not worth damaging or losing your health, over a game like this. I'm saddened to know that other people (especially trusted mods/admins/staff), have been involved in a significant data capture. It was a massive task for Marmalade (and his team of helpers), to do, and also doing it free of charge, for the player base.

I haven't played recently (or at least not much), but the phenomenal progress in game play and features, has been an amazing journey, back into the past, when I use to fairly extensively, play on the original PC and Xbox360(/PS2) servers.

I'm still amazed at the achievements that Marmalade has made. I thought that once the switches on both (plus Japan, later) original PSU servers were switched off. I would never see (play) PSU (online/live) again. Since the original server software would be unavailable, and details of how to do it, would be kept secret by Sega.

Edited by Adooma
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Well, reading that is just kinda sad. Not something I expected to see after returning from a long break from the game.

I have been here since just a few days after the very first forum went up back in 2014, I couldn't believe somebody was actually working on bringing PSU back. I watched and waited with excitement seeing this game slowly get bought back to life thanks to Marm.

The early days of visiting the forum daily talking with the mods and small community at the time, seeing it slowly grow by the day and Marm and the early testing team sharing very early work of the lobbies and broken missions. Most people outside of the community won't understand, but just seeing that again nearly 2 years after the servers closed was really special. Then nearly a year later, Marm gave us all access to Clementine for the first time. We broke the forum, we broke the servers and had to use the Facebook group page just to communicate with each other. There were no working missions, the fashion was basic, items didn't have their correct names, it didn't matter, the game was alive again and I couldn't have been more grateful. I will treasure those memories, they were some of my favourite moments on any game to date, even more memorable than when the official servers were up.

I won't bore everybody with the rest of the history up until now, so I will just say thank you. Thank you for bringing this game back, Marmalade. It didn't matter to me how much of the game you could salvage, recreate and improve, just bringing it back and allowing me to create more memories with this game was more than I could ever ask for. All of those discussions about the direction you wanted to take the game, input from the community that sometimes got heated, none of this mattered to me, it was enough just to get back into the game again, that is all I ever wanted and you made that happen. I'm sorry it has ended this way for you, I can't say I am surprised, I remember a while back you saying this game was taking it's toll on your mental health. If you had quit back then, I would have understood. I just hope that one day you can find your way back to the game you created and love it again. It's frustrating to learn that we have had snakes in the community for so long that pushed you towards this, people that I have spoken to and played with many times over the years. I just hope you know that the majority of us that played weren't like that and were just happy that you gave us the opportunity to play the game again.

Hopefully you return one day, but as a player, and we can run some missions together. Until then, look after yourself and I wish you all the best for the future 👍

Edited by TurtleHermit0
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Damn.. What a messed up situation.

No respect for those that leaked and bought the files.

Massive shout out to Marm for dedicating the past decade of your life to this game and the community you built. Very grateful I and many others got to experience PSU again, thank you for making it happen. At least you have this huge weight off your shoulders now I suppose. I'm sure it was a nightmare being in charge of all of this and having to deal with the constant criticisms and toxicity. Just know there are a lot of people here that really appreciate you and what you've accomplished. I wish you nothing but the best in your future, hope you have a speedy recovery pal. Thank you, much love bro.

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I know i speak for many when I say we are forever grateful for everything Marmy and the other staff members have done for us. I loved PSU before it was shut down, and I love it still. Being able to relive everything i got to do in the past was so amazing, and i made new friends, built new memories, and grinded thousands of missions. It's been a blast.

I have always been vocal about my dislike of the complainers and ungrateful/toxic people, and I am glad to see your stance against that behavior, Gnome. None of you do this for any other reason than it being a passion project, and for people to take that for granted is just foul. I just hope you guys never forget that at the end of the day, the majority of us are forever grateful to you for beinging back Clem and keeping it up. <3

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I just want to say of my behalf..  This really hurts me seeing Marm like this because this man done soo much for clementine since 2014. I came into clementine scene around 2016 summer closed testing phase started to help the team. Marm is a really nice person and talk about passionate about the project  where it want to go once he have most of stuff working. we have some hiccups in the past and im not going go much detail about it. I care for this man well being and i told him “Take the break you needed, you done too much for clem” Im glad he finally getting that chance that he needed.  Now for the people that were involved with that cruel thing.

Parallaxed:  It shocking me to see this man did this type of stuff for money/greed. I never seen this coming because I thought he was nice person since he help alot with clementine over the years. I can’t believe this happen and it hurts me alot for actually doing this ultimate betrayal to marm. I trusted this man..

Flawless:  I am not surprised at all because he literally one of biggest scumbag of all Phantasy star community he touch upon. A very Toxic player.  I wish karma will strike back to him and failure to setup a PSU server. 
 

mil: He is toxic and does not care for the casual player/community feedback. He care for himself and for TAs. 
 

Soly: I can’t say much about this because i know soly for awhile in my time in ultima and help me alot with item lost. If he part of this mess then this is very disappointed because this man care about improving more on PSOBB QoL stuff. 

Conclusion: I will defend and support clementine no matter what. This server will always be the main hub of PSU. I wish a good luck on gnome,Kyu and rest of the clementine team to bring a brighter future for this server. I believe in them.  
 

Marm, if you reading this please take care yourself and if you need a friend talk too my DMs always open.  You always be loved in clementine. Remember that!

Without you then there will not be clementine. You the one revived one of our favorite Phantasy star game and we cannot thank you enough of your dedication you did to this server.

Thank you so much!!

 

Edited by Killroy
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On 1/4/2022 at 8:13 PM, Souma said:

The other side was people who would ask the question and then get an answer but then want to argue and try to deter a much needed update simply because it didn't gel with what they were currently farming the ever living shit out of or were more interested in making sure we didn't nerf their next big meseta grind and less concerned with how it actually effected the game and it's economy and it's playerbase in general.

My apologies.

Didn't want to make it seem as though there was no effort on the PSUC team's side to answer questions at all, nor that Marm shouldn't be asked questions either.

However, I do believe having a few selected people whom questions should be directed to would have helped, more or less to bother the developers a lot less and only with important issues.

This point of view is from someone on the outside looking in, so it's possible this is how it was all along. The issue of people asking constantly is something that should've been expected, whether those were with good intentions or otherwise. As Aelphasy stated, being more firm with these folks and requesting for them to take their issues to the forums rather than argue with the team may have helped this issue.

Again, this is all in hind-sight. Hopefully this issue will be resolved in a better manor going forward. "You do you."

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On 1/4/2022 at 5:20 AM, jenitchman said:

Gnome I'm very sorry to hear what Marmalade went through I wish all the best for him and his family and with great thanks for what he has put in to Clemintine. As for you Gnome thank you for taking on this huge project I know it must be a bucket full to handle. Thank you for taking over the project I look forward to the future of Clemintine....

We stand upon the precipice of change. The world fears the inevitable plummet into the abyss. Watch for that moment… and when it comes, do not hesitate to leap. It is only when you fall that you learn whether you can fly.

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Really sorry to hear this, I always held nothing but respect for Marm and the effort he put into this server. I mean hell, I only got the chance to experience online PSU because of him and the team. Funny how low some people stoop just because things don't go their way. I'm surprised to see some of those names though, I would've never expected that from Parallaxed and Flawless seemed like a pretty chill guy when I first spoke to him after the server launched, but I really noticed just how much his attitude degraded over time. Milranduil however, has always been a colossal shithead, that much I knew from PSO2.

Whatever Marm decides to do from here on out, I wish him the best. This shit isn't worth losing your health and mind over, he really deserved better.

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This is heartbreaking to hear, I just started playing again in November of last year as a few words of solidarity I sincerely thank those that worked to make this project happen. 

Edited by MillieBunnyZ
Clarification
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Don't let scummy people like soly who can't code for shit make you give up.. difference to these people and you is you fix shit... Soly will just charge people for shit... The best thing to do is release the build they leaked and just make your psu the best one. Like ephinea did.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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On 1/9/2022 at 7:29 AM, Beeeeemop said:

Don't let scummy people like soly who can't code for shit make you give up.. difference to these people and you is you fix shit... Soly will just charge people for shit... The best thing to do is release the build they leaked and just make your psu the best one. Like ephinea did.

"We wouldn't know who the good people are in this world if there weren't bad ones."

This community is small already so I'm utterly confused as to what those who stole the data intend to do with it. If it's to make money, they must be hoping on a prayer, in the two digit regulars who'd play their server, that there's a "whale" for private servers among them.

If this was for personal reasons against the PSUC team, again I question the point of splitting up the players to even smaller communities. Did they really believe a majority of players were fed up with Clementine? Seems to me, at least they we're not in favor of it.

Although the situation itself is disappointing to many of us, I'm actually glad it happened. Marm needed to leave long ago, or at least take a long break. Not because of the work he's done or who he is, but because this game has been his life for almost a decade, so him leaving is actually the best thing for him
For the rest of us, that means we will need to be patient with game updates as the new PSUC team regroups. Also, as Gnome stated, they have lives outside of this server and therefore their time is limited.

Wish this would have happened in a more positive circumstance, but I believe this was all for the better, in the silver lining kind of way.

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2 hours ago, Seority said:

"We wouldn't know who the good people are in this world if there weren't bad ones."

This community is small already so I'm utterly confused as to what those who stole the data intend to do with it. If it's to make money, they must be hoping on a prayer, in the two digit regulars who'd play their server, that there's a "whale" for private servers among them.

If this was for personal reasons against the PSUC team, again I question the point of splitting up the players to even smaller communities. Did they really believe a majority of players were fed up with Clementine? Seems to me, at least they we're not in favor of it.

If it's money motivated, then they must be incredibly desperate. They can't seriously expect to make much money from the games code or even a private server. PSU is a very niche game, I see no way to make serious money from it.

Are they looking to create their own private server? Like I said above, it's a niche game, anybody that cared about PSU is already here on Clementine. Will they be hoping to pinch players from Clementine to move to their private server? At peak times, Clementine can get over 100 players, so if they pinched half of the players away from Clementine, what have they really achieved? nothing really......well, you would pretty much kill both private servers by fracturing the player base, but that isn't exactly something worth striving for. Also, how could they even hope to gain any following at all after all of this? These are people that will betray you if it means they can gain something from it, would you really want to install something on your pc made by people like that? I certainly wouldn't.

 

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1 hour ago, TurtleHermit0 said:

 At peak times, Clementine can get over 100 players, so if they pinched half of the players away from Clementine, what have they really achieved? nothing really......

These are people that will betray you if it means they can gain something from it, would you really want to install something on your pc made by people like that? I certainly wouldn't.

 

We can look at this logically (aka without morals since what they did to achieve this was immoral so clearly they don't care.)

Someone stole this data, and then sold it to someone else whom then purchased the stolen data.
This means someone felt the data had value and subtracted from their own funds to obtain it.

People normally spend their money on things of value to them, but that value can depend on what that person means to get from it. This usually falls into two categories: To gain more value from it, or to "show off."

-------------------------------

Gain Value
If the point of stealing&paying for Marm's data was to make more value (aka more money/profit,) then there are a few steps they will need to take in order to do so.

Build a server using Marm's data, rent server space to host it, and find a team to help update and fix the server are just a few things needed. 

Once the server is up and running, now they will need a player base to play to spend money on the game in order to make a profit from. How can they get players? Well, they can probably reach out to people whom have quit Clementine, people whom dislike it now, and more than likely their friends. 
If you'd like, we can use the pareto principle to deuce how many people may possibly play their server compared to Clem's. If you're right about 100 daily players, then they should expect about 20. That's not going to be enough, I assume. 

So now they will need to advertise their server in order to get new players to join and they will either have to promise or lie that their server is better than Clementine. They could pay for google/youtube/facebook ads, granted I don't believe their budget will get that big, so more than likely will be word of mouth through other forums or discords. 
Now, they will need to make money of some capacity so they will need to offer boosts, privilege's or unique content in order for players to shell out. 

Perhaps they do not wish to obtain monetary value from Marm's data that was stolen and they paid for. What would they do then?

"Show-off"
Although I do not know of any display cases where one can show-off a video game's data, it's possible that whomever wanted Marm's data just wanted it to have it.

Perhaps they really just wanted a private server of their own but did not want to put in the effort to make one themselves, in which they play with themselves (lol) and their friends in their own separated world. If this is true, this seems to be quite important for them to be in control of everything since most players are happy with Clementine the way it is.

It's possible that whomever is starting this new server simply wants to make a "better" PSU server. According to cold-hard logic, as Clementine players, if we want the best PSU server we can get, then competition is necessary. However, we are humans and believe in fair play, and someone who wins a competition by cheating cannot be labeled "a winner." If these people really wanted to compete, they should've made their own code, but we're past that now.

For the worst option, maybe they had a vendetta against Marm and/or the Clementine staff/developers and simply wanted to harm their moral by taking his server and starting their own just to break down the community. I dislike painting people in such dark colors, but as logic dictates, I must think of every possibility as to why this happened.

-------------------------------- 

Look, the world isn't just black and white. There's a chance the reason for doing what has been done was a little of column A and a little bit of B. All we can really gain is from the little we know. 

The data was created and belonged to Marm. He believed the data was worth the effort and did not wish to make it or sell it for profit.
Whomever did this did see value in Marm's data as well. Enough to steal&pay for but not enough to make their own.
It's also very clear that they do not care about the Clementine community by these actions either, since everyone here knows how they acquired Marm's data. 

If you are deeply concerned about this issue, then my advice is to not draw attention to it. Shed a light on it when necessary as evil only grows in the dark, but understand that if you continue mentioning it, even in a negative way, that will only help it stay relative. 

"There's no such thing as bad publicity."
"Never let a catastrophe go to waste."
"Create a problem, sell the solution."

 

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So as an update to my previous post, I was given contact with one of the developers for the other server and was told that they are planning on releasing a better PSU server. They will be building their own code on top of this data to do so. 

They informed me that they are not doing this for monetary profit.

So now we know.

Edited by Seority
Replaced the code they are currently using.
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All I gotta say is "dang". Not really the news I expected to casually mosey into tonight. This is sad to hear. 

I honestly never would have expected Parallaxed to do something like that. What would he expect to accomplish from this? I just can't wrap my head around it.

I also share the sentiment that while I loved seeing the updates and other things Marm was up to in the development of this server, I always had the feeling he sorely needed a break. A hobby like this should be fun, not stress. I hope to see him around to, at the very least, hang out and enjoy the results of his own work for once. 

Also, if it's any consolation to Marm (assuming he reads this), whatever it is, it isn't you. You are not the cause of this mess. I'm in my 15th year working tech support, and there has been a very nasty change in the air in the past year. People are getting mean ridiculously mean, snapping at any perceived wrongdoing, demanding compensation for every tiny perceived wrong. Culture as we know it is falling apart. Too many people are concerned only with their own validation, and not with any self-reflection. None are willing to compromise, because that would destroy their oh-so-holy validation. 

If you do return, do it for your own enjoyment, and make sure you are not directly reachable by the players. Maybe not a "PR group", but maybe find a mod who makes a good "point of contact", that has enough of an "FU" attitude to tell off any would-be Karens. You're not making money on this, so you have no obligation to take abuse.

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First off, Marm, I'm grateful you spent so much time on this project to bring PSU back to the players who missed it dearly. For that I don't think there is enough thanks. Dude, just take care of yourself now. You've more than earned it 

Second, I know I'm probably not the most popular person with the team, and for what it's worth I apologize for any drama my end may have caused. Regardless of that you guys have made something awesome and I hate to hear stuff was stolen.

From my short time with the team I know how much you guys have worked on it and it really bothers me that someone would do that. I remember in the very beginning before Gnome even joined the team just how much time Marm and Tony spent piecing the puzzle together. I was there absolutely in awe of what they were trying to do and wanted to help in what little way I could even though it would have been done without me. Even if it was just explaining mechanics that may or may not help them piece the puzzle together that much faster. I would literally watch them in text chat talking about things I didn't understand until they had a question for me that I could answer. I've seen it firsthand, these guys get so much flack, but work on it for hours on end just to get the smallest thing working. They gave me a new perspective in video game development and how much work goes into something that people just take for granted. 

And to Gnome, I know there isn't really much I can do for the team at this point, nor would you guys probably even want me to, however, if you need to reach out to me on Discord for something feel free to. Even if it is to just vent. 

Edited by Midori Oku
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The people that were nasty must not be in game much, because everyone I've ever played with have always been cool. There's only one person that I played with that seemed suspicious (won't mention names), but everyone else was awesome.

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