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Melee PAs


Selphea
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Just starting a thread to talk about how to use some of the PAs that were recently buffed.

Moubu is really good now. I've been using the movement and side hitboxes on large enemies that need to turn to hit you so the extra hitbox width is really helping. It also hits 2 spots on Rol Le nicely where previously the movement would make it miss sometimes.

There are a few PAs that I'm trying to figure out.

One is Rising Crush which was buffed to hit 4 targets. However the animation is short-ranged so to me it feels more like a Hishou or Rising Strike type PA for staggering single large targets like Svaltus. Has anyone figured out how to make it hit 4 targets?

Another is Senten Kanzan-ga where the 2nd part was buffed. But trying it out, it seems difficult to hit 5 targets with especially compared to much wider PAs like Bukuu Saien-zan or Tornado Break. It feels like a slower Shunbu. Is there a way to make it reliably hit 4 and 5?

Edited by Selphea
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I don't necessarily think you're wrong overall - it's definitely a good thing to keep an eye on this. If a PA doesn't have the hitbox to reliably hit its new target count, buffing the target count won't help too much.

However, in the specific case of Senten Kazan-ga... I've been using that PA as my main AoE on Acrofighter since the level cap was 59 and making it 3 hitbox would completely kill it. If other people are having trouble hitting things with Senten then I'd much rather see it gain a slightly more generous hitbox instead of it becoming yet another 3 hitbox PA. It isn't hard to hit all 5 targets with the second part of Senten. The first part is a bit more difficult to land but it's possible too, especially if you're using Senten on bosses.

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5 hours ago, Seority said:

@Jess Victorix is the one who balanced out the melee PAs from this last patch. Would be best to get information from him.

Before I ask Jess I want to figure out how to make it work first. Actually let me edit the first post, it should be more about how to use them than whether they need changes.

Moubu for example is really nice now. It's very consistently hitting 2 parts on Rol Le. Just need to figure out how to use the others.

5 hours ago, Zeta said:

I don't necessarily think you're wrong overall - it's definitely a good thing to keep an eye on this. If a PA doesn't have the hitbox to reliably hit its new target count, buffing the target count won't help too much.

However, in the specific case of Senten Kazan-ga... I've been using that PA as my main AoE on Acrofighter since the level cap was 59 and making it 3 hitbox would completely kill it. If other people are having trouble hitting things with Senten then I'd much rather see it gain a slightly more generous hitbox instead of it becoming yet another 3 hitbox PA. It isn't hard to hit all 5 targets with the second part of Senten. The first part is a bit more difficult to land but it's possible too, especially if you're using Senten on bosses.

For sure, I'm just 1 player and I'll gladly admit I haven't tried a lot of PAs extensively yet. it seems like there isn't a lot of gameplay talk that's why I thought I'd start a thread about it. Let me try Senten more. For bosses, I know the dragons tend to have tight hitboxes but how about the others? Is there somewhere to stand to make it work on Fakis 2 / Falz 2?

I've tried it a bit more and from the looks of it, 5 targets on Navals is possible in a narrow space. On mid-size targets like Vanda, 4 seems to be the average. On large targets like Drua Gohra it's seems very difficult to hit more than 3 spots. The mini gap close is nice though.

Edited by Selphea
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51 minutes ago, Selphea said:

For sure, I'm just 1 player and I'll gladly admit I haven't tried a lot of PAs extensively yet.

Yeah, there are a lot of striking PAs, and experimenting with them involves getting a full set of the relevant weapon + getting the PA to level 40, and dealing with the fact that there's a 36 PA limit. The game isn't really set up to allow you to try everything out easily. There's a fair chunk of PAs I'm not too familiar with either.

Anyway, Senten Kazan-ga works great against dragons. I generally hug the neck / front body and go ham on it (just be careful on Zoal Goug since its neck can block you from moving under it during some animations.)

Falz/Fakis Final, I typically use other PAs - though since the recent buff I've been playing around using Senten some. If you can get underneath the thing on Falz/Fakis' tail (dunno what it's called), you should be able to hit 4-5 hitboxes without too much trouble. 

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Retsuzan Souhi-jin(40):Feels somewhat lack luster, Primarily the first combo's damage is pretty low, especially when comparing it to other PAs that hit multiple enemies,(spiral, Majarra, BD, moubu, Ranpa, ect.) I found that i'm typically wiping enemies alot faster when i'm not using it
Currently equipped with a 10/10 Clad Slicer-EE.  as a beast AF 31, with buff items, The first two hits only deal 1.7k each, and the second combo is 2.8k~3k, Each combo hits 2x, was hoping the first combo would reflect the second half, but that didn't end up being the case. It's fast though, so it could be spammed fairly easily, But it's output isnt near Blade Destructions.. Destruction, Or Assault crush, or other skills that can hit multiple targets, And those can output more damage and clear about the same amount of mobs, faster.

My slicer isn't BiS so it should reflect more of what it's average usage may appear to be in the best case scenario(could be better if catastrophe, but i dumped so many 👀 whoops.), as getting a 50% divine breath or a 50% Swift Demise will be more troublesome to acquire. (especially if its DA/EE)

Blade destruction(40): starts off very low in terms of damage from 1~30, But as soon as its at 40 it's alot better at wiping mobs/slaughtering large enemies, it feels good. (40)
Not much else to say other than it does its job well. The damage may seem high, but getting to the 3rd combo has its issues due to long animations. (spoiled by assaults crush's swiftness too.)

Bogga Ranpa(30): leveling from 1~10 is slow because of the single hit and the hit boxes for the uppercut tends to miss targets alot of the time, Same with part 2, it "can" hit 3 targets but i have trouble hitting anymore than just one target at a time. The damage is decent too on AF, If given wider hitbox range I feel this skill would shine alot better. Will tweak in response to lvl 40.

Sougacho Sekka(6... gave up.):The attack's hit boxes are strange, It could be good for maybe the dragon bosses, but it has heavy competition with so many skills in the game, that felt it would just be better to use renzan, for the exact way Sougacho was designed, killing bosses, And it also kills mobs more effectively too, This skill is very awkward to use.. and i'll level it, and give a final thought on its output, but for now, very unimpressed. Will give final opinion at lvl 40

Infinite storm(lvl14!?):So early, yet it shines.. So brightly,  Don't Sleep on this. Great for mobbing, Great overall DPS, Great boss Killer, Fast and easy to use, Excels on AF. Hits like a truck, and will only get better as I level it, Will give a final opinion at lvl 40.
My saber wasn't even 10/10, I need to find a better one...

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For Retsuzan, 1700 and 3000 sounds like you're JAing the first part. It's more of a straight spam PA where the first part is non-JA'd. In the span of a Blade Destruction you can do 2 Retsuzans that way. JA 1 is more for PP efficiency but gives up quite a bit of DPS since part 1 is kind of not worth JAing.

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33 minutes ago, Selphea said:

For Retsuzan, 1700 and 3000 sounds like you're JAing the first part. It's more of a straight spam PA where the first part is non-JA'd. In the span of a Blade Destruction you can do 2 Retsuzans that way. JA 1 is more for PP efficiency but gives up quite a bit of DPS since part 1 is kind of not worth JAing.

right but then it'll almost be like your not using the first combo at all. and that only does about 1000 non ja,
To add to this, BD's first three hits already match retsu's entire combo in a similar setting. finishing the combos spits on retsu. 

Edited by Lupophobia
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Comparing Blade Destruction to Retsuzan Souhi-jin feels a bit odd to me. It's kind of apples and oranges.

Blade Destruction is a 3-4-4 target melee attack.

Retsuzan Souhi-jin is an infinite target ranged attack.

If you've got 3-4 enemies right in front of you, Blade Destruction absolutely should be better.

If you've got 5+ enemies spread out in a line across the room, then Retsuzan should be better than having to run around and individually blade destruction things (or lure them into melee, etc).

Now, if it actually is faster to run around and individually Blade Destruction 5+ spread out mobs then yeah maybe that needs looking at.

 

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19 hours ago, Zeta said:

Comparing Blade Destruction to Retsuzan Souhi-jin feels a bit odd to me. It's kind of apples and oranges.

Blade Destruction is a 3-4-4 target melee attack.

Retsuzan Souhi-jin is an infinite target ranged attack.

If you've got 3-4 enemies right in front of you, Blade Destruction absolutely should be better.

If you've got 5+ enemies spread out in a line across the room, then Retsuzan should be better than having to run around and individually blade destruction things (or lure them into melee, etc).

Now, if it actually is faster to run around and individually Blade Destruction 5+ spread out mobs then yeah maybe that needs looking at.

 

this is exactly the case. after the first set of enemies are killed it's animation still plays out to kill other enemies. I'd rather BD than use Retsuzan in multiple instances. Much like I would rather use Renkai to kill those same exact mobs, Same with infinite storm, The issue isn't the target count, rather the first combo is just too weak, and the second combo doesnt adjust to it appropriately. There's alot of skills in the game that can hit 3~4targets, dish out much higher damage and faster, and can still kill the same number of enemies before retsu can. Infact a better competitor i'd say would be dezza, even non-JA dezza does so much damage, and hits 6 targets/spots, making it great for mobbing and killing bosses. It's great, and I don't think it needs to be nerfed, rather more PA's just need adjustments to remain competitive. Currently BD's really good at CC's if you have some twin sabers that also freeze(like Twin Calad) It has very wide range, (think of it like a circle around your character.) but suffers with anything directly infront of it, Think of it like dezza if you could move readjust your position before you use your final hit, just not as powerful as dezza, but it gets the job done.


I believe this is why later the damage of slicers reach like 900 atk and have a 20~30% PA multiplier on so many. the PA does ok damage, but in the current state of the clem, There's many more options it has to compete with. So currently slicers are weak, but may get better in the future.

Example of the slicers I was mentioning with PA modifiers.
http://re-psupedia.info/Fuma_Shuriken
http://re-psupedia.info/Draconic_Age_(skill_power_boost)
http://re-psupedia.info/Furinkazan
http://re-psupedia.info/Rainbow_Baton
http://re-psupedia.info/Mjolnir
http://re-psupedia.info/Kamade-hiken

Edited by Lupophobia
Some adjustments.
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It's because Retsuzan is really fast.

Suppose the animation was doubled, like the first part throws 4 times for the same damage per hit as right now, then the 2nd part throws 4 times for the same damage per hit right now. So the total animation time is doubled but DPS is actually the same. Would that feel better to use? That's the situation Retsuzan is in right now. AF speedboosted Retsuzan non-JA 1 followed by JA2 vs WT non-speedboosted normal into JA Dezza is very similar, just that the AF presses buttons 4 times compared to WT's 2.

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11 hours ago, Selphea said:

It's because Retsuzan is really fast.

Suppose the animation was doubled, like the first part throws 4 times for the same damage per hit as right now, then the 2nd part throws 4 times for the same damage per hit right now. So the total animation time is doubled but DPS is actually the same. Would that feel better to use? That's the situation Retsuzan is in right now. AF speedboosted Retsuzan non-JA 1 followed by JA2 vs WT non-speedboosted normal into JA Dezza is very similar, just that the AF presses buttons 4 times compared to WT's 2.

The animation speed i can understand, but we must also take into consideration if given the same situation, WT would also have slightly higher attack+ stronger buffs, slightly. There's also a matter of weapon availability and their outputs currently, So I can't really say for sure how much it would affect it, considering how much dezza spits damage. There's also two other factors: Lining up the enemy and the fact that dezza knocks back on last hit.

I would say AF's power comes in the form of support damage with slicers rather than actually dealing the damage to kill, but it would be nice if it did, I think its more of an issue of just not having the right tools yet to make it shine, But it will later. Especially since Rainbow baton exists and might be one of the slicers to become available for release in near future? though thats just me speculating.

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