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[QoL] First Attack JA for melee users.


Lupophobia
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Allow for melee users to JA their first combo of a PA without the need of basic attack, and allow for basic attack to auto JA at the start.

This allows for things like not needing to swing your slow sword around just for a JA to the first combo, Or axes
Or if your using slicers, skip the awkward initial swing and go straight into combos.

QoL, If it can't be done, can it  be changed so that the damage modifier is fixed to do JA damage for the first PA combo/ First basic attack swing.

Example: PSO2.
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Edit: Will keep up, but so far this discussion regarding this topic is closed.

Edited by Lupophobia
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This won't happen. It would be pretty unbalanced for a lot of pa's especially with the crit GAS options. Whats next making all MF's spells do crits or every gun shot?

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On 9/13/2021 at 3:24 PM, Coast said:

Whats next

Every monster in the game (and friendly npcs don't ask) killable with incap lv 1, and if it's not too much, bosses too? but only for basic class.... :D

 

Now for realsies...
While personally i don't understand what "JA", and possibilly going to feel stupid if it's something smiple :D
Using heavy weapons like axes has it's charm, they has high power at the cost of speed.

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On 9/13/2021 at 9:24 AM, Coast said:

This won't happen. It would be pretty unbalanced for a lot of pa's especially with the crit GAS options. Whats next making all MF's spells do crits or every gun shot?

Specifically for melee classes i meant, I didn't mean gun/tech users. which is why i stated, allow for the "first combo" of a melee PA to auto JA. 

Alot of the time as a melee user, instead of basic attacks, we just go straight into the PA without JA'ing the first combo, it's more for conveniences for not having to basic attack.
To add, JA's already function as a "crit" so it wouldnt change the output of the damage, Rather it would simply allow us to JA without needing to use basic attack for a variety of skills.

Edited by Lupophobia
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1 hour ago, Fruzsina said:

Every monster in the game (and friendly npcs don't ask) killable with incap lv 1, and if it's not too much, bosses too? but only for basic class.... :D

 

Now for realsies...
While personally i don't understand what "JA", and possibilly going to feel stupid if it's something smiple :D
Using heavy weapons like axes has it's charm, they has high power at the cost of speed.

To clarify, JA is Just-Attack, Or Exact input timing for skills/bullets, and Technics. You can only JA after blocking with Technics or Shooting
Melee users do it immediately, after a basic attack, or during their combos. This is a JA

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To clarify, 

this is something we can do by default  for 2nd and 3rd combo. It wouldn't be massively game changing, like giving "crits" to shotgun or "crits" for techs after the first cast, that would be disgusting and very imbalanced. and no where near as impactful as allowing this for melee users. as it would simply cut the start-up time of a PA rather than needing to basic attack to flow into a PA.
Every time you dont do this. your losing the damage output of the first PA-combo not getting a JA, and your not getting the damage output for having your first swing.

The reason why it's useful is because when your forced to run at a enemy, and do a basic swing just so you can maximize your PA's damage output, you run the risk of being knocked around like a ragdoll every 5 seconds. Tech users and Ranger users dont have to deal with this nearly as often cause their primary focus isnt always "close-quarters" .

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To my understanding, the numbers right now are balanced around the first part being non-JA which is part of playing melee IMO. It starts off meh so that the damage can be loaded at the end to give those satisfying last hits. And it's also partly about giving choice, like do you want to start with a normal to be more PP efficient, or go straight to part 1 for higher DPS but burn PP on low damage with part 1. Auto JA is also going to be really tough to balance for 1 part PAs like Jabroga, Grand Crusher, Vivi Dezza and Cyclone Dance.

Edited by Selphea
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33 minutes ago, Selphea said:

To my understanding, the numbers right now are balanced around the first part being non-JA which is part of playing melee IMO. It starts off meh so that the damage can be loaded at the end to give those satisfying last hits. And it's also partly about giving choice, like do you want to start with a normal to be more PP efficient, or go straight to part 1 for higher DPS but push the last hit back a bit. Auto JA is also going to be really tough to balance for 1 part PAs like Jabroga, Grand Crusher, Vivi Dezza and Cyclone Dance.

well for those it wouldnt be much of a difference, other than just not using first attack, but i get you. If its being balanced for the first combo doing more damage than i guess that already solves the issue.

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It's not so much that the first part hits harder, but that the last part on PAs tends to blow stuff up. Like on Evolution's path in the last room, when something dies, chances are it's because a Fighmaster Spinning Break'd it with the 3rd part. When averaged out, Striking DPS is good but that's because JA 2 and JA 3 make up for a non JA'd 1.

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2 hours ago, Lupophobia said:

well for those it wouldnt be much of a difference, other than just not using first attack, but i get you. If its being balanced for the first combo doing more damage than i guess that already solves the issue.

Its definitely balanced that way the main problem with this change would be skills like vivi dezza, cyclone dance etc that would just shred everything with this change.

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48 minutes ago, Coast said:

Its definitely balanced that way the main problem with this change would be skills like vivi dezza, cyclone dance etc that would just shred everything with this change.

Might not exactly be the best choice to balance around non-JA attacks too, it could make the first combo really really broken if you do JA the first PA combo, which is why having JA enabled for the first combo by default without scaling the PA's actual damage would be better in terms of balance.

 

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not much of a QoL but more of a make me better without having to play better imo

"Alot of the time as a melee user, instead of basic attacks, we just go straight into the PA without JA'ing the first combo, it's more for conveniences for not having to basic attack."
this is simply not true, maybe new novice players but nah

"You can only JA after blocking with Technics or Shooting"
This is a JC (just counter) not a JA

"To add, JA's already function as a "crit" so it wouldnt change the output of the damage, Rather it would simply allow us to JA without needing to use basic attack for a variety of skills."
functions as a crit isn't exactly the best way to put it when JA/JC is much different from a crit

"The reason why it's useful is because when your forced to run at a enemy, and do a basic swing just so you can maximize your PA's damage output, you run the risk of being knocked around like a ragdoll every 5 seconds"
melee is more of a skill oriented fighting style and relies on positioning and timing, it's a part of the melee classes identities and adds risk/reward play styles

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10 hours ago, Lupophobia said:

JA is Just-Attack, Or Exact input timing for skills/bullets, and Technics

So the hard attack thingy for the "crits", right?

10 hours ago, Lupophobia said:

You can only JA after blocking with Technics or Shooting

That's something alright, since you can tech/shoot from longer distance. But it would be cool to see if we could "time" them too. Like, we would take a little time in-between shooting/teching instead of button mesh? But generally i feel like, laser beams/line PA-s would gain extreme CC rate with it, with their infinite target counter in line. So it's something that wouldn't really work for them i believe.

10 hours ago, Lupophobia said:

Melee users do it immediately, after a basic attack, or during their combos.

That's something alright as well! As already mentioned, attacking with an item such as axe, or sword. As @Selphea mentioned earlier, certain PA would break out of the ballance, because they have only one attack. However i feel like, a few other PA would gain extreme benefit, would make them a little too powerful. Such as Gravity break, and Anga Redda. But not only the heavy weapons would gain too much advantage. Playing as Acrotifgter, i feel like PA's such as Buten, or Rekku (or any slicer PA really) would be a crit rain.

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I see no reason for this to be done. Move in, use a normal attack, and then start your PA JA chain. Done. What you're asking for just removes a single step that isn't even that much trouble to begin with. Why even bother?

Edited by ScarletMel
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13 hours ago, ScarletMel said:

What you're asking for just removes a single step that isn't even that much trouble to begin with

I play as FM and AF, i find this idea a little bit crazy....

I personally LOVE axes, they're heavy, goofy, and none the less really good at dealing damage.
Anga Jabroga is something what people were called "Jabroken" Now imagine, if it's going to be JA no metter what, with out first swing.
Vivi Dezza Would be smiliar for Melee AT
Rekku Chouhi-jin Tank for days (and yes, this attack has more than one attack)
And for the funzies i can say Gravity Break I'd totally go only with the first attack for DPS, and i wouldn't have to worry about tossing the enemies away.

And many other PA on the list, but i'll let you figure out the rest.

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On 9/14/2021 at 4:39 PM, Lupophobia said:

Specifically for melee classes i meant, I didn't mean gun/tech users. which is why i stated, allow for the "first combo" of a melee PA to auto JA. 

Alot of the time as a melee user, instead of basic attacks, we just go straight into the PA without JA'ing the first combo, it's more for conveniences for not having to basic attack.
To add, JA's already function as a "crit" so it wouldnt change the output of the damage, Rather it would simply allow us to JA without needing to use basic attack for a variety of skills.

skills like jabroga, gravity break, cyclone dance, grand crusher, sougacho, shousen, dezza, would all become far too strong if you didn't have to normal attack first for the crit.

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Just now, milranduil said:

skills like jabroga, gravity break, cyclone dance, grand crusher, sougacho, shousen, dezza, would all become far too strong if you didn't have to normal attack first for the crit.

If that was the case then the damage would be tweak specifically for those PA's,
Jabroga also misses if your too slow. also the damage is high but you need to take into account the damage that could've been done by any other weapon from its charge time. That's the whole reason why it's attack scaling is high, to compensate.
Grand crusher comes out much faster, but it's still fairly weak, Decent for bosses but not "gamebreaking", I still think its weak even though mines is 42. Also if your interrupted at all, you lose your hits. It just has to deal with that issue less than jabroga due to it's actual speed.
Sougacho's attack power feels lacking, over all, not only this, it's hitbox is very weird. claw's first swing isn't that slow so it wouldnt be nearly as impacful.
Actually, after the patch it really seemed like alot of the recent buffs were made to address the no JA on some PA's, And honestly that feels alot more "broken" then just having them JA. without needing any buffer.
Everytime i look at an axe and see inflated numbers, I'm constantly reminded at how weak they actually are due to their speed.
Gravity break's damage is also kinda meh too. Slow start up for big numbers, and can miss. Second combo launches, And depending on the enemy, will roll them away so you can miss your third combo.
Cyclones damage is decent, but it can still be beaten by other PAs in terms of actually dps, Not only this, the last hit knocks enemies away. So it's situational, and would be better for bosses.
Dezza's broken.
shousen come's out fast even after first swing, it wouldnt really be too impactful, Must also consider that the knock up can sometimes fling enemies too far back to hit them.

But if at the same time, I'm perfectly fine with that because it ultimately means extremely high damage on PA's first combo if you were to JA now.<--this is broken scaling, which is why im perfectly fine with these PA's being changed like this.
But i'm also concerned for reasons as to why some of these PAs were overtuned:

I assume, it may seem very strong currently, We're still in S2 mind you, only getting stronger, ect. S3's HP scaling will be something entirely different. Which is why I haven't commented on the power of some of the already existing PAs that arent from psp2.
I need to wait until I see more S3 enemies, I was hoping rumbling ruins would reflect that, but i think the mission in particular might just have weird enemies scaling, But if not, and 180 enemies at the end reflect what we might be seeing in the future, then it would make more sense.

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27 minutes ago, Lupophobia said:

If that was the case then the damage would be tweak specifically for those PA's,
Jabroga also misses if your too slow. also the damage is high but you need to take into account the damage that could've been done by any other weapon from its charge time. That's the whole reason why it's attack scaling is high, to compensate.
Grand crusher comes out much faster, but it's still fairly weak, Decent for bosses but not "gamebreaking", I still think its weak even though mines is 42. Also if your interrupted at all, you lose your hits. It just has to deal with that issue less than jabroga due to it's actual speed.
Sougacho's attack power feels lacking, over all, not only this, it's hitbox is very weird. claw's first swing isn't that slow so it wouldnt be nearly as impacful.
Actually, after the patch it really seemed like alot of the recent buffs were made to address the no JA on some PA's, And honestly that feels alot more "broken" then just having them JA. without needing any buffer.
Everytime i look at an axe and see inflated numbers, I'm constantly reminded at how weak they actually are due to their speed.
Gravity break's damage is also kinda meh too. Slow start up for big numbers, and can miss. Second combo launches, And depending on the enemy, will roll them away so you can miss your third combo.
Cyclones damage is decent, but it can still be beaten by other PAs in terms of actually dps, Not only this, the last hit knocks enemies away. So it's situational, and would be better for bosses.
Dezza's broken.
shousen come's out fast even after first swing, it wouldnt really be too impactful, Must also consider that the knock up can sometimes fling enemies too far back to hit them.

But if at the same time, I'm perfectly fine with that because it ultimately means extremely high damage on PA's first combo if you were to JA now.<--this is broken scaling, which is why im perfectly fine with these PA's being changed like this.
But i'm also concerned for reasons as to why some of these PAs were overtuned:

I assume, it may seem very strong currently, We're still in S2 mind you, only getting stronger, ect. S3's HP scaling will be something entirely different. Which is why I haven't commented on the power of some of the already existing PAs that arent from psp2.
I need to wait until I see more S3 enemies, I was hoping rumbling ruins would reflect that, but i think the mission in particular might just have weird enemies scaling, But if not, and 180 enemies at the end reflect what we might be seeing in the future, then it would make more sense.

Its not that simple either as reducing the power of those pa's. A lot of the later playstyles with AF AT and a bit of WT is using them is fishing for counters and getting Just Counters for more damage out of them. Reducing the power of the pa's effectively makes that pointless and the pa's worse off. Regardless its all a moot point in the end since we are not going to change how first hits work.

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1 minute ago, Coast said:

Its not that simple either as reducing the power of those pa's. A lot of the later playstyles with AF AT and a bit of WT is using them is fishing for counters and getting Just Counters for more damage out of them. Reducing the power of the pa's effectively makes that pointless and the pa's worse off. Regardless its all a moot point in the end since we are not going to change how first hits work.

This is assuming the first combo of every PA got nerfed, which is what i'm not implying, But Seems like everyones really just against the idea.
This was more in response to how I felt about how weak the first combo is to a PA even when you JA,
and the fact that first combo is usually spent without getting a JA for any other PA that isn't single combo.

But again, if first combos are going to get massively buffed to make it worth while to JA the first combo then it's a non-issue, It'll just end in a situation where, some melee PA's become too overtuned.
My current issue with it is how much damage is lost when you don't JA. if that was minimized without just simply buffing/nerfing PAs then it would be a better solution.

 

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8 hours ago, Fruzsina said:

I play as FM and AF, i find this idea a little bit crazy....

I personally LOVE axes, they're heavy, goofy, and none the less really good at dealing damage.
Anga Jabroga is something what people were called "Jabroken" Now imagine, if it's going to be JA no metter what, with out first swing.
Vivi Dezza Would be smiliar for Melee AT
Rekku Chouhi-jin Tank for days (and yes, this attack has more than one attack)
And for the funzies i can say Gravity Break I'd totally go only with the first attack for DPS, and i wouldn't have to worry about tossing the enemies away.

And many other PA on the list, but i'll let you figure out the rest.

I can't tell if you're just explaining that for the TC's sake, or if you misunderstood that I believe making first attacks for melee always JA isn't something that should be done, thus being against it.

 

6 hours ago, Lupophobia said:

My current issue with it is how much damage is lost when you don't JA. if that was minimized without just simply buffing/nerfing PAs then it would be a better solution.

The better solution is to just do what everyone already does, and what things are balanced for. Do a normal attack first, and then JA your PA off that. If you don't manage to get the JA off, then that's just something you gotta live with. It happens. If you just don't know the JA frames, it's a matter of learning them and developing muscle memory (I'm going to assume you know the frames for the weapons you use). If you just mistime your press like everyone has no doubt done now and then, then your engagement just takes a little longer. That's all. What you're asking for further removes any need to use normal attacks. I mean yeah, they recover PP, but that's pennies and nickles compared to just swapping to another weapon and continuing your assault.

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On 9/16/2021 at 7:55 AM, Lupophobia said:

Dezza's broken.

🙄

Oh yeah, let's just nerf a PA that only 3 2 classes can use and one has max skills at 20. 

This discussion is moot. Taking out JA's would fundamentally change melee classes just to save a second or two when attacking. Use basic attacks when you feel it's right to JA or don't. If that's too hard, play a gunner.

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15 hours ago, Seority said:

🙄

Oh yeah, let's just nerf a PA that only 3 2 classes can use and one has max skills at 20. 

This discussion is moot. Taking out JA's would fundamentally change melee classes just to save a second or two when attacking. Use basic attacks when you feel it's right to JA or don't. If that's too hard, play a gunner.

I need to clarify somethings because various opinions of current PA balance is also overlapping with the discussion which was adding JA which has been unanimous shared their opinion against it. So end of that discussion.

My opinion of a PA's damage does not mean that i think it should be nerfed rather, it my opinion of PA's appearing stronger currently has to due with my opinion of the current balance of clementine as of S2. This is unrelated.
I'm also not saying every single PA in the game needs a nerf, This is also in response to a set of PAs being listed with my suggestion, then that exact response was applied to a different scenario entirely and that may have taken somethings out of context.

Yes I said Dezza is broken. But I also believe it's broken for a reason. And that reason my be how further difficulties would be balanced to counter these exact changes. Also take into consideration that AT has 50 buffs/debuffs, and with gas would be able to hit lvl 30 skills.
In the future it would only get better. But as of "S2" its definitely broken like alot of other PAs. But should it change? No. Rather than just nerfing everything, balance around it. It's why despite "Gravity breaks high damage" I still call it a weak PA due to its slow damage output, while also being able to miss.

But again, this:

On 9/14/2021 at 8:11 PM, Selphea said:

To my understanding, the numbers right now are balanced around the first part being non-JA which is part of playing melee IMO. It starts off meh so that the damage can be loaded at the end to give those satisfying last hits. And it's also partly about giving choice, like do you want to start with a normal to be more PP efficient, or go straight to part 1 for higher DPS but burn PP on low damage with part 1. Auto JA is also going to be really tough to balance for 1 part PAs like Jabroga, Grand Crusher, Vivi Dezza and Cyclone Dance.

In the future, this could bring about a whole new level of PA imbalance if you follow the trend of buffing a PA for Non-JA. It would just mean that if you do JA the first combo you would get significantly higher damage out of that same exact combo,
I'm even noticing that faster PAs are dealing similar damage to that of gravity break, but they come out significantly faster, and have higher over all DPS just because of this. So, disregarding the auto JA from the beginning, minimizing some of the damage lost would still be better as to not overtuning a PA's first combo. I'm saying this because  its currently 129 patch, and we haven't seen the more broken weapons that add PA damage by 20% or so while also having insane amounts of weapon damage. It the damage would scale significantly too high, I wouldn't be surprised to even see some PAs hit 25~30k"Per spot" for some of the hard hitting PAs. But again, my opinion on PA balance isn't exactly the point of this discussion.

I honestly brought this up due to how weak some of the first combo's to some PA's can be to the point it could be completely disregarded and skipped for their second and third combo's damage.
Sorry for sharing my suggestion without taking in the the consideration of how PA's are currently functioning.

 

On 9/14/2021 at 11:08 PM, Coast said:

Its definitely balanced that way the main problem with this change would be skills like vivi dezza, cyclone dance etc that would just shred everything with this change.

I want to bring light to this though. Even if we didnt have the first combo of a PA auto JA, Again as Seority has stated, it would only take 1~2 seconds off before pulling this off. Having a combo's first combo become too overtuned will indeed cause issues with how PA's are balanced in the future as more weapons with high PA modifiers are released. I'm more concerned about that rather than the suggestion I've made, but this would be better represent in a discussion about PA's. 

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