What made PSU Easy? (official, And clementine.)

[milranduil]

If you want to make a comparison of tanky vs squishy classes, wouldn't it make the most sense to use the same buffs? FM vs MF for example, both with megi?

[Selphea]

24 minutes ago, milranduil said:

If you want to make a comparison of tanky vs squishy classes, wouldn't it make the most sense to use the same buffs? FM vs MF for example, both with megi?

From various threads this is what I gather:

• Seo plays AT, can solo fine
• Zeta plays WT, can solo fine, switched away from MF because MF was dying
• Lupo plays FM and AF, dying
• You're playing MF, dying

I said previously, if it was just the DFP change, that wouldn't be so bad. It's around the 10% you described. It's DFP change and Buffs sitting on a multiplicative layer and there's dummy thicc DFP classes with self-buffs on top.

To me the solution should be

• Enemy ATP should go down a lot
• Deband and Jellen should go down somewhat

Makes sense?

Edited September 1, 2021 by Selphea

[milranduil]

The definition of "fine" here is hilariously skewing your interpretation of what is considered acceptable. There is an AT in our group that gets 1 or 2tapped like the rest of us, buffs don't fix the issue.

I've drawn this up to give an accurate comparison both of how low/high DFP classes deal with damage, as well as how much leveling does or does not change that. I initially thought enemy TP was more of a problem than it is, but it's actually fine. Only ATP is the issue. It *does* need to be buffed compared to official to give the same sort of #s, just the 63% is obviously overkill.

Edited September 1, 2021 by milranduil
fixed 1 formula typo

[Selphea]

9 minutes ago, milranduil said:

I've drawn this up to give an accurate comparison both of how low/high DFP classes deal with damage, as well as how much leveling does or does not change that. I initially thought enemy TP was more of a problem than it is, but it's actually fine. Only ATP is the issue. It *does* need to be buffed compared to official to give the same sort of #s, just the 63% is obviously overkill.

Agree with the intent, 63% is indeed overkill and I also agree the final numbers should be close-ish to retail.

As for the exact numbers, that really depends on what line shield, GAS abilities, units, buffs, debuffs and so on are being considered as the baseline. That's not my decision to make so I won't go into details on that. Ultimately I just want things to be reasonably soloable for all races and classes in decent gear.

[Lupophobia]

14 minutes ago, Selphea said:

Agree with the intent, 63% is indeed overkill and I also agree the final numbers should be close-ish to retail.

As for the exact numbers, that really depends on what line shield, GAS abilities, units, buffs, debuffs and so on are being considered as the baseline. That's not my decision to make so I won't go into details on that. Ultimately I just want things to be reasonably soloable for all races and classes in decent gear.

One thing that i'm also concerned with is GAS scaling, and how it would effect this aswell. Also having it locked behind max level wouldn't really be an ideal solution either, as it usually means players would need to hit 180 before they can alter their stats appropriately.

also math hard. my brain hurts. uploads aren't done. are they necessary? D:

[Selphea]

16 minutes ago, Lupophobia said:

also math hard. my brain hurts. uploads aren't done. are they necessary? D:

Main takeaway for now is try using Megistaride! Won't completely fix the ridiculous ATP but will mitigate it a bit. If you're AF, Riela's Lance, Promoto Duke, Stec Duke might help a bit too.

Not that I advocate using specific gear as a band-aid and not that it will completely fix the problem but I'm a player not a game designer

Edited September 1, 2021 by Selphea

[KanameChidori]

I mean I don't think any of this should be balanced around a maxed out GAS'd character. They are supposed to be end game additions that make you more powerful. So gimping your defense the entire time until you get fully GAS'd is a bad idea. Idk how they will handle GAS, it will either be level 180 like it always was, or perhaps we will start accruing AEXP whenever we hit cap and can start saving for the future (since the total exp is massive).

Edited September 1, 2021 by KanameChidori

[Lupophobia]

12 minutes ago, Selphea said:

Main takeaway for now is try using Megistaride! Won't completely fix the ridiculous ATP but will mitigate it a bit. If you're AF, Riela's Lance, Promoto Duke, Stec Duke might help a bit too.

Not that I advocate using specific gear as a band-aid and not that it will completely fix the problem but I'm a player not a game designer

I always use megistaride, cause it also fix accuracy issues and retaride also boosts mst so its like having deband, but for techs, which is kind of a must as a beast.
Rather it would be better to use a freeze RCSM to debiliate enemy movements while also using demonic muramasa to incapacitate them without being knocked around.

Techs will hurt regardless. the additional tech damage increase just kinda sucks when you consider that this is only S2, the ATP scaling is definitely worse.
Having to alter my play style to get around the ridiculous scaling isn't exactly fun either, it just leans more into that whole aspect of needing to play a specific way to enjoy the game, and already abusing incap sucks.

[Selphea]

Agree with that on Mizura, I was thinking about the Svaltus spawn.

Personally I can't comment too much on things being difficult because I'm working on my Cast gunner right now and there's a lot of ways to avoid taking damage altogether. I can park far away or stand in a blind spot and rifle, I can stun laser, I can strafe-kite, use traps, corner them with grenades, spam MAGA bullet, and Killer Shot deals with a good chunk of the half-guard enemies that I should be respecting and so on. I never played Gunner on retail so there's a lot to learn and it's fun. At any given time either they can't reach me or they're stunlocked. But I know if I said things are easy everyone would tell me to STFU, and justifiably so! When I switch to a melee class I have to respect so many more mechanics and the risk-reward just makes me go "ehh".

Looking at the drop distribution though, the good shields like Armas Line, Bugei Senba, components for Divine Shield, even Ouryu to complete the Shijin set are all in robot quests, and if I had to choose whether to run as a Fighter or a Gunner, yes I feel dirty for saying this but of course I'd choose Gunner. I do want to play other classes eventually though, and I'd like for them to be fun to play.

Edited September 1, 2021 by Selphea

[Seority]

9 hours ago, Selphea said:

When I switch to a melee class I have to respect so many more mechanics and the risk-reward just makes me go "ehh".

... if I had to choose whether to run as a Fighter or a Gunner, yes I feel dirty for saying this but of course I'd choose Gunner. 

Isn't this why FM was the best on official damage wise? They have the highest risk to reward, as well as having to deal with loads of RNG to get a decent palette. (50% weapons and 10/10 six for each element. )

I was unware of how multiplicative the damage was when it goes against those with low DPS or any poor soul whom lacks lv 40+ buffs/debuffs. This doesn't seem right at all.

I'm with you @Selphea. If I were to make a dps class currently, it would definitely be gun-focused for sure. Also, the yummy ATA and DFP of CASTs make them more tempting to pair with.

[Zeta]

13 hours ago, Selphea said:

This might be a "was" rather than "is" a legit strategy. Retail Deband Lv2 reduced the damage you took by around 5% depending on a few factors. Clem Deband Lv2 reduces the damage you take by a multiplicative 15% based on the new damage formula (it's DEFENSE BUFF MOD there). I have a feeling things are balanced around the new multiplicative formula hence you need to stack more things than retail.

Nah, I go without deband on some easier missions. Stuff like Unsafe Passage S2 or Scarred Planet S2 are fine with no deband. Saves meseta and means I don't have to deal with the backlash damage of megistaride, which is definitely more annoying when you're not a techer with (gi)resta.

13 hours ago, Selphea said:

Try it! 

I've swung around some Kronos Scythes on my low leveled FM (leveling on White Beast) and it's nice when it procs. Not really into the 'spam off element incap attacks just for the incap proc' gameplay but I'll probably cave on that eventually and buy megid for WT. Might farm Demonic Muramasa sometime, but getting a whole set in acceptable element%s will be a pain. Though that's just life as striking.

10 hours ago, Selphea said:

• Zeta plays WT, can solo fine, switched away from MF because MF was dying

I main Human Acrofighter actually. I have a Newman Wartecher (ex-Masterforce) that I made because some missions just aren't reasonably doable as a striking class (that and because I just like leveling new characters and trying different types.) 

10 hours ago, Selphea said:

When I switch to a melee class I have to respect so many more mechanics and the risk-reward just makes me go "ehh".

 

2 hours ago, Seority said:

I'm with you @Selphea. If I were to make a dps class currently, it would definitely be gun-focused for sure.

Striking main is pretty much playing PSU on Hard Mode. Harder to gear, harder to play, meseta inefficient because of consumables. I love it anyway but some parts of the striking experience are not exactly great right now.

13 hours ago, Selphea said:

Looking at the drop distribution though, the good shields like Armas Line, Bugei Senba, components for Divine Shield, even Ouryu to complete the Shijin set are all in robot quests, and if I had to choose whether to run as a Fighter or a Gunner, yes I feel dirty for saying this but of course I'd choose Gunner. I do want to play other classes eventually though, and I'd like for them to be fun to play.

And this is one of them.

[Lupophobia]

7 hours ago, Seority said:

Isn't this why FM was the best on official damage wise? They have the highest risk to reward, as well as having to deal with loads of RNG to get a decent palette. (50% weapons and 10/10 six for each element. )

I was unware of how multiplicative the damage was when it goes against those with low DPS or any poor soul whom lacks lv 40+ buffs/debuffs. This doesn't seem right at all.

I'm with you @Selphea. If I were to make a dps class currently, it would definitely be gun-focused for sure. Also, the yummy ATA and DFP of CASTs make them more tempting to pair with.

It would actually be very helpful to see what overall DPS is like for every type/class and weapon combination currently to see where classes are at in the current setting, cause even for some basic mobbing I'm finding it hard to keep up with just basic gunners  unless its a large enemy with multiple spots, that thing is getting shredded, but for single target enemies, Regardless if I'm  using a dagger or not, a point blank shotgun/crossbow shot will still erase the enemy, or bows will deal with tankier enemies,  or incap will deal with enemies that are weak to it,
And if you line it up just right with crossbows/shotguns, you can apply that same amount of damage to maybe 2 enemies at a time. Easily hitting 10k+ in a single shot,
or you know, just use a bow it hits equally as hard in a single shot or harder. It ignores defense regardless of how hard it scales, while also remaining incredibly powerful, easily out damaging rifles in those situations, and if your a beast? or a cast with that bow? the damage scales much higher, especially combined with those buffs, and debuffs.. actually DO debuffs matter when your using a bow..?
Would that scale as negative defense? How does that work?
I wouldn't know cause I personally find the weapon repulsive and broken vs retail and I tend to avoid the most overpowered thing in a class.

Gunners got things like increased se, added bullet counts, increased damage, and more utility options.
Techers got increased range, higher SE, QoL buffs, and LB.

Fighters need something that can also keep up with these changes that aren't just "inflate ATP" even though it would be nice.
I mean its nice, but there needs to be something else. Something besides traps, or buffing bullets on a melee focused class.
Like knockback resist during PAs, or change how certain PA's function so that they flow together.
I love spiral, but that fucking 2nd combo does NOT flow well with its third combo. Knock down, blowaway (bye enemies.) blowaway 3x? eugh.

Gravity break be like: 
"TWO STRONG SLASHES! AN UPPERCUT-- Wait that Koltova is too far! I CAN'T REEEEE-" third combo wasted, And on top of that its slow. But if knock-up was changed to knockdown on gravity it would flow ALOT better, maybe even make it so it can never miss.
Absolute dance? Just knocking Koltova everywhere, What's the point of that third combo? And don't get me started on
Splenda® Crush's third combo... But Somehow Rising crush mostly works.. Attack speed fixes alot of the issues though with PAs not flowing appropriately, because the timings are closer. These are reasons why I hate WT, FF, and FG. For the things i need them for, they move too slow to flow together for some skills, which means you would opt for something else.

I can understand if melee 1~2 shots a tech/ranged user because their attacks are usually used at a distance rather than up-close alot of the time(unless shotgun/crossbow.)

Also could be me but... seems like there's been a severe decline in protransers..?
I could be wrong, but it definitely seems like a lot of people avoid the class now, Do they have a incapacitate option?
From my knowledge I'm only aware of demonic muramasa and Kronos having incapacitate, lvl 2 (would a higher SE on these weapons help with their SE proc rates? I assumed it was made that it had a set chance for melee.)

Usually Techers are tankier in terms of blocking tech damage(which doesn't scale nearly as hard as ATP currently) so they have that for balance.
much like techs would melt a melee user, but they (used to) resist melee attacks.
in order for some melee classes like Fi, FF, FM, AF to keep up with that ridiculous scaling, they should be adjusted to resist more melee hits. It wont fix  the fact that techs are hitting harder because the enemy level is currently significantly higher than retail, but I would  assume players being able to level and reach a higher having higher levels would address this issue, the problem really lies with the ATP scaling currently, as its slow turning into a more consistent "foie" that melee users have to put up with.

[Lupophobia]

Also I haven't even done my FM run yet, Haven't been sleeping all too well with the heat currently, Hope everyone's having a fantastic day. 

[Selphea]

13 hours ago, Lupophobia said:

And if you line it up just right with crossbows/shotguns, you can apply that same amount of damage to maybe 2 enemies at a time. Easily hitting 10k+ in a single shot,
or you know, just use a bow it hits equally as hard in a single shot or harder. It ignores defense regardless of how hard it scales, while also remaining incredibly powerful, easily out damaging rifles in those situations, and if your a beast? or a cast with that bow? the damage scales much higher, especially combined with those buffs, and debuffs..

actually DO debuffs matter when your using a bow..? Would that scale as negative defense? How does that work?

Crossbow actually only hits 1 target, it's Shotgun that can hit 2 (or 3 with Zagenga). Both are good weapons with their own uses of course.

As for Longbow, that's a good point that I haven't thought about. So Zalure will always multiply damage. That's what I mean by sitting on its own multiplicative layer. If your arrow hits for 1000 without Zalure, with Lv41 it will hit 1270.

But Ignore Defense means it might also be ignoring the extra defense calculation part of Clem's formula. On most mobs with 350 DFP, 1000 raw damage gets x0.74'd to become 740 damage. If Longbows ignore that 0.74, in theory Longbow they might be doing 35% more damage than retail ! In the same vein, Ikk Hikk too, just that Ikk Hikk has a ton of risk attached since it's slow, close range and has no CC.

So with Lv4 Zalure, a solo Guntecher's Longbows might actually be hitting around 58% more damage more than Retail...

If that's true I kinda feel like Ignore DFP should be changed to Half DFP.

13 hours ago, Lupophobia said:

Gunners got things like increased se, added bullet counts, increased damage, and more utility options.
Techers got increased range, higher SE, QoL buffs, and LB.

Fighters need something that can also keep up with these changes that aren't just "inflate ATP" even though it would be nice.
I mean its nice, but there needs to be something else. Something besides traps, or buffing bullets on a melee focused class.

I'm more on the conservative side. Move too many things at the same time and they tend to break each other. To me a "safe" Step 1 would be more Retail-like enemy stats and address some of the outliers caused by changes like SE override, DFP calculation, buff calculation and so on. After that change, check for new outliers -- unexpected side effects will always happen -- then try to change again.

Edited September 2, 2021 by Selphea

[Zeta]

As a striking player, the things I'd like to see are:

- Address the 'meseta cost per run' of being unable to use support TECHNICs. On a run with my AF I could spend up to 10k on consumables. On a run with my WT I often spend 0 meseta on consumables, sometimes 1k or 2k on photon charges alone. The cost of buff items has been significantly increased from retail. Agataride et al used to be 150 meseta, whereas Megistaride was 300. At the very least this should be reverted. A reduction in the cost of trimates would also be nice (to 300, maybe?)

- A Level 150 enemy on retail has 1017 EVP. A level 150 enemy on Clementine has 1117. So the enemies have boosted base EVP, which when combined with enemy levels generally being higher in Clementine results in too many zeroes. At the least we should revert enemy base EVP to retail values. Maybe even a touch lower than retail to make up for the boosted enemy levels.

- Shield buff and strike resist should not stack (probably true for bullet resist too). Doing half damage against something is one thing, doing one third damage is another. There's just no reason for this. Strike resist alone is enough to encourage you to use a different damage type (and or status ailments / SUV). 

- Spread the line shields out to missions that are not filled with strike resist bots. It's fine to have different types do better with different missions, but when striking does badly on pretty much every mission that drops the best line shields... yeah it sucks.

Buffs to lesser used/weaker striking PAs would be nice too.

[packor]

On 8/31/2021 at 3:33 PM, KanameChidori said:

I think people just mix up hard with tedious. PSU was never hard in a difficultly sense (and shouldn't be really) but was tedious. Running the same mission 300 times and getting nothing is not hard that's just obnoxious tedium. When you have very high damaging enemies mixed with low drop rates or what feels like overly tedious drop rates you have what Clem is currently. Ofc there are always going to be people that find shit right away or constantly get lucky and say things are fine, but that's not the majority. Idk about others but I sure as hell don't like giving up my 2 or so hours of free time every day, logging in, doing 15 maybe 20 runs and getting nothing for it and then repeating for weeks on end. Then having to NPC/sell every single thing I find to make any sort of meseta, and that's not even mentioning the ridiculously inflated stats on 140+ enemies and all that.

 

This problem was not nearly as big on retail because you had many more options of income. On Clem it's you either sell everything you find or get a single big ticket item in the first few weeks before they lower in price. 

Pretty much this: tedious.  The gameplay is fun, I don't really pay too much attention to the cries about how x needs to be able to clear faster or y's weapon is too functional(or how this game is too easy, but enemies dodge too much), but yes, getting things is tedious.

[Selphea]

2 hours ago, Zeta said:

- Shield buff and strike resist should not stack (probably true for bullet resist too). Doing half damage against something is one thing, doing one third damage is another. There's just no reason for this. Strike resist alone is enough to encourage you to use a different damage type (and or status ailments / SUV). 

Agree with your post but just wanted to ask, what happens when you Ikk Hikk or Longbow a shield buffed enemy? Not saying this should be the long-term solution but just curious about how much of that is coming from the DFP formula.

[Zeta]

21 hours ago, Selphea said:

Agree with your post but just wanted to ask, what happens when you Ikk Hikk or Longbow a shield buffed enemy? Not saying this should be the long-term solution but just curious about how much of that is coming from the DFP formula.

Well it'd ignore the boosted DFP, so it'd just be like if you were attacking an enemy without a shield buff... though you'll still have to deal with the boosted EVP that (some?) shield enemies get. Gaozoran's entry claims that it halves ranged damage instead of boosting EVP but I'm guessing that's an odd special case.

Does Ikk Hikk ignore DFP? Because it doesn't say anything about that on the wiki.

[milranduil]

They removed shield causing ranged half damage since many enemies appear with it extraneously (humanoids, most Bal Sozas, some robots, etc.)