Somethings I need to get off my chest (rant, feel free to drop your rants here too!)

[Lupophobia]

I know I mentioned it before in some other posts, but I'll probably address it again more directly. 

This is about direction of the difficulty scaling on clementine, and also the drops again.
I understand that in PSUC, players some players may have wanted harder difficulty scaling, but I feel it's important that it probably should've been left as official, and instead,
offer more GAMs (guardian's advanced missions) for harder content with appropriate loot to compensate the limitations around type level, and player levels, It would alter what weapons players can use for that particular content. The issue currently is that there wasn't really much of an option for the players that didn't want this change to begin with.
This would be perfect for old events like IC where you can experience the mission as it was intended rather than having to make it a generally easier experience for everyone.
GAM is design in a way that it's meant for party play for doing harder content, Strategically,
A lot of time's i've noticed whenever someone complained about the difficulty, the only answer to that was... what.. do a lower difficulty instead of what was originally intended for your level?
PSU wasn't exactly designed to be a hardcore game in particular, but forcing that onto players isn't exactly a good idea to begin with.
We always had the option, but in the current state of clementine, we currently do not. GAM should be more of an endgame feature, maybe revamp all the existing missions with a new twist, enemy patterns and gimmicks, there's so much potential that could be done inside of GAMs and it's really where the hardcore focus should be. 

Maybe I should just ask for core systems of the game to come back in some light as there's now plans for gas to be implemented at some point?

It's like when Kritika NA had already more difficult than original "existing" content made even harder because players were running it too quickly, and then the patch came and everything was made overly difficult for little rewards, (atleast they made drops slightly higher at the time while also having linear progression..) and that's why the game died in the hands of Enmasse.
Now with its re-release its dying cause its p2w af lul.

In the case of clementine, content was made harder
Not exactly harder, just enemies are tankier and more and more enemies have sword and shield buffs now meaning some enemies can one shot you because they're also overscaled,
Drops were also nerfed, not in just value, but physically as its very uncommon for just basic mobs to drop anything at all, and to add, community was also smaller than official server, so having a steady supply of something is also an issue. Item's like Twin Caladblog, don't really exist due to it being on A rank difficulty and no one farms it. 
it would be healthier if more enemies dropped more items rather it being tied to a clear box that usually holds nothing but note seeds and photons. <--- Materials like these should be removed from the clear boxes and clear rewards should be more rewarding for the effort you put in.  There's been many more times where I wouldn't even see a single weapon drops, iirc the drops were made in accordance to not knowing the existing drop formula the official server used, so that's also understandable. I could be entirely wrong, so if I am, please slap me. 


It's demotivating sometimes when you go into a mission, run out of PP chargers, kill a boss and leave with maybe just.. 10k? cause the money drops on enemies were also nerfed into the ground, and don't scale appropriately at higher levels, also with enemies being scaled higher, something like a random foie crit or an enemy freezing you in place without being able to move, you end up dying, or on some other cases, maybe the player doesn't have higher than 21 stamina, and doesn't have Vijeri / resist, then your going to be replenishing Scapes, then you replenish your Trimates and stars, and buy all 10 of your photon chargers over and over, sometimes It feels like I lose money rather than gain it, until maybe one drop maybe. (there's been many more times where I wouldn't even see a single weapon drop) iirc the drops were made in accordance to not knowing the existing drop formula the official server used, so that's also understandable.

And before its brought up, not every class can attack from range and deal appropriate damage to deal with these sort of situations where you don't need to be near an enemy, and not everyone plays the exact same way. That would be pretty boring, and not how PSU was designed to begin with. A lot of changes have been put into the game in accordance to the new difficulty alterations, like techs gaining wider range, having LB built into the class from the start, bullets being buffed to deal alot more damage than they used to, and bullet/techs having higher SEs. I'm not saying these are bad changes, but it doesn't solve all the issues in the game even when the other PAs are out.

I feel like if the game was too easy before hand, Then why are some mechanics not being worked on to improve the difficulty, like enemy Debuffs and functional turrets with proper damage scaling, or having explosives deal 80% of Max HP? instead enemies were made artificially stronger with cheap alterations to their stats so they can cheap shot you with spells, enemies getting stronger due to the fact people joined my missions isn't exactly fun when you consider some specific enemies have absurd amounts of HP, so while it may work for most enemies, it really sucks for those tankier mobs if players can't tackle it accordingly.

Restricting player level and increasing the enemy level to be higher creates a new issue for players which cause them to mission alot more than they're used to, and there's no way around it currently as our level cap is 119, but our enemies are 150~170. In the cause of Robotanical Gardens, Enemies have gone from being 140, to 170. yet for our S2 cap. Not only this, drops don't exactly get easier the higher the difficulty goes, missions remain rather dry over all. Not only this, but it seems players are adjusting their playstyle to suit these difficulty changes rather than playing the class they'd like to enjoy. It's forcing players to shit to a sort of meta.

For example more and more players are playing hybrids to take care of two issues, Enemies having high defense, or enemies being weak to incapacitate.
Is one thing being so strong that it completely negates the need for the others?
Then it needs readjustments if its too good, or other aspects of the classes need to be brought forward to compete.
It seems like alot of classes have a way to get around their weaknesses except for some melee classes, unless you have things like incap weapons, or something to deal with annoying mobs.
so I would like to suggest something like either Super armor where melee users can take a hit, without being knocked 50 yards and having to run back to hit their enemy, And allowing some weapons to pierce enemy defenses like spears, great swords, axes, maybe even rifles and shotguns. but are readjusted so the damage doesn't end up just being like bows being spammed all over again.

It's funny seeing people say the game is easy when they use like 1 or two tools to completely trivialize the games difficulty, regardless of how strong that enemy may be. If it's too powerful then its something that needs to be readjusted and looked at because it will only seem to get better and better as the difficulty increases and player level caps grows.
Anyway, what are your thoughts? What are your disagreements/agreements to my statements?
Feel free to also drop your own rant below. Getting out frustrations is a good way relieve some stress. Just keep it civil, and mature and give constructive criticisms.
No one is ever right in their opinions, but also keep in mind to not devalue those opinions, and be mindful of them. 

[Zeta]

11 minutes ago, Lupophobia said:

It's demotivating sometimes when you go into a mission, run out of PP chargers, kill a boss and leave with maybe just.. 10k? cause the money drops on enemies were also nerfed into the ground, and don't scale appropriately at higher levels, also with enemies being scaled higher, something like a random foie crit or an enemy freezing you in place without being able to move, you end up dying, or on some other cases, maybe the player doesn't have higher than 21 stamina, and doesn't have Vijeri / resist, then your going to be replenishing Scapes, then you replenish your Trimates and stars, and buy all 10 of your photon chargers over and over, sometimes It feels like I lose money rather than gain it, until maybe one drop maybe. (there's been many more times where I wouldn't even see a single weapon drop) iirc the drops were made in accordance to not knowing the existing drop formula the official server used, so that's also understandable.

I think the issue here (cost of consumables sucking your meseta away) is that of 'classes without support techs' vs 'classes with support techs'. On my Wartecher I can get through some missions spending close to 0 meseta on consumables, because I have Resta/Giresta/Megistar. Meanwhile on my Acrofighter I have to chug mates every time I need to heal, Megistarides every 3 minutes for buffs (or Agatarides at the cost of missing more often, taking more damage and dealing less RCSM damage), and... well, no equivalent of Giresta's regen unless I give up my extra slot for a regen unit (which is not generally worth it compared to an SUV or +End unit).

It wouldn't be so bad if every class was equally meseta taxed by consumables, but classes that can't use support techs end up playing exponentially more for consumables. It's just way less meseta efficient to play a class that can't use support techs (unless you're constantly partied with people who can).

[Aelphasy]

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It's demotivating sometimes when you go into a mission, run out of PP chargers, kill a boss and leave with maybe just.. 10k?

Something like Plains Overlord S gives around 15-20k per run (minimum, taking into account loot at the end, payout, copernia / olpad). Even in A, average missions give around 8-12k. Which mission in what rank gave you 10k ?

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And before its brought up, not every class can attack from range and deal appropriate damage to deal with these sort of situations where you don't need to be near an enemy, and not everyone plays the exact same way. That would be pretty boring, and not how PSU was designed to begin with. A lot of changes have been put into the game in accordance to the new difficulty alterations, like techs gaining wider range, having LB built into the class from the start, bullets being buffed to deal alot more damage than they used to, and bullet/techs having higher SEs. I'm not saying these are bad changes, but it doesn't solve all the issues in the game even when the other PAs are out.
 

Even with all that, for some mission, FF/FM have better clear time. 

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For example more and more players are playing hybrids to take care of two issues

What makes you say that ? I feel that there is a good balance between the classes played.

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It's funny seeing people say the game is easy when they use like 1 or two tools to completely trivialize the games difficulty

Care to elaborate that point ? 

[Seority]

If we're speaking purely on opinions/feelings/hypothesis towards on PSUC then:

I don't see the game as difficult, however I play on a hybrid class that can use techs. Currently, it is way easier to solo as AT than AF and I agree that's very odd to me. My damage is only slightly better on AF which probably shouldn't be the case, but none of my skill PAs are above 30, so that may attribute to my views.

There will always be a meta, that's just how games are. If the best items are found at the most difficult missions, then those are the missions people will run. A casual can easily run a few S's and gain a palette that's acceptable. However, the need to play meta should be minimal and only apply to those who desire to be:

If people who dislike playing meta are pushed towards it simply to play, that's a problem. I do see that a bit currently, but not a severe problem for now. As for the current meta of incap being too good, that's probably because it's the best option for the most popular missions at this time. 

As for enjoyment playing PSUC, I still love doing what I do best (support-main-always ) but it does get tiring. Soloing as AT is easy, but I lose intetest since I have no access to a travel PA. Even if my runs are slower and I end up spending more meseta per run, playing AF is so much more engaging. Since PSU is a interactive-intense game, having to spend a few seconds to a minute or so just moving the direction stick after pressing auto-run to get to the next mob? Super boring. 

The point of PSU is a treasure-hunt game of course, where you run missions, to get drops, to run better missions, to get better drops, to run better missions, so on and so on. Drop rate is a huge deal for this reason and while I'm fine with some items being really hard to get, spending 15-30 mins on a solo run just for lv150+ enemies and S2 mission boxes to drop C rank items, hurts. It invalidates my time and effort greatly, specially when even a 7* synth item will at least sell for a few hundred meseta and a few of those would fund the mates I used to do the mission.

As for deal-breakers when it comes to PSUC. I have none. 

PSUC is PSU and I love it dearly. While there will always be a better PSUC to strive for, I'm honestly satisfied with what it is now. Everything is just a minor issue I have. Sure, if it was better I would play it more, but maybe it's good that I don't only play PSU.  

[Killroy]

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like Twin Caladblog, don't really exist due to it being on A rank difficulty and no one farms it.

Uhhh have you play the recent update that added next wave of S2? I have found so many of that weapon in S2 https://psu-clementine.net/wiki/index.php/Robotanical_Gardens

Thanks to the tier down drop system.

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maybe the player doesn't have higher than 21 stamina, and doesn't have Vijeri / resist

Vijeri / resist is like 1m in the player shop lol. Not that hard to make a mil 

 

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Restricting player level and increasing the enemy level to be higher creates a new issue for players which cause them to mission alot more than they're used to, and there's no way around it currently as our level cap is 119, but our enemies are 150~170. In the cause of Robotanical Gardens, Enemies have gone from being 140, to 170. yet for our S2 cap. Not only this, drops don't exactly get easier the higher the difficulty goes, missions remain rather dry over all. Not only this, but it seems players are adjusting their playstyle to suit these difficulty changes rather than playing the class they'd like to enjoy. It's forcing players to shit to a sort of meta.

If you participate the IC event and manage to find Pacifist, Catastrophe, Daylight scar Astral blade, or ticket weapon. you should be able to do fine at next S2 wave. Its not that hard if you fully gear up. TAs and efficient player able to solo just fine since they have correct gear. Casual player just want to play casual and chill talk in the lobby. Thats just how PSU ment to be play, I like this diffculty changes but it is not perfect because we are indeed taking damage similar to S3 and S4. Adjusting ATP/TP by little bit should be a fine spot. 

Honestly Im having fun time in clementine at this stage tbh lol.

[Zeta]

1 hour ago, Seority said:

I don't see the game as difficult, however I play on a hybrid class that can use techs. Currently, it is way easier to solo as AT than AF and I agree that's very odd to me. My damage is only slightly better on AF which probably shouldn't be the case, but none of my skill PAs are above 30, so that may attribute to my views.

I've ran the numbers for this (back when someone was proposing skill 30 on AT), and nope you're correct. Acrofighter's damage is really not that much better, given equal weaponry. Like, 5-10% better depending on weapon (higher ATP weaponry being more favorable to the AF).

And that's assuming the AT doesn't use Zalure. With Zalure, Acrotecher outdamages AF by a fair bit (>10%).

[Seority]

1 hour ago, Killroy said:

Vijeri / resist is like 1m in the player shop lol. Not that hard to make a mil .

If it so easy, please let us poor folks in on how it's done!

1 hour ago, Killroy said:

If you participate the IC event and manage to find Pacifist, Catastrophe, Daylight scar Astral blade, or ticket weapon. you should be able to do fine at next S2 wave. Its not that hard if you fully gear up.

What do those of us whom weren't able to participate in events get the best gear?

Should we just not play until an even happens?

[Aelphasy]

If you missed an event, basically you missed an event, like if someone join this in 2023, well, it will have a hard time ""catching up"" below 5k IDs which are still playing regularly. Idk ?

Anyway, what I see is that an average run against 160+ monsters is done in 6-9min. And we are level 119. And the next update should mechanically make the game even easier, for the early game at least but not only but will see.

So what's, exactly, the issue ?

[Killroy]

Enemies on S2 dieing really fast tbh lol. AT buff is overkill. The trade off is for enemies to do more damage to us if you have right elements armor to take less damage. If you miss a limited time event then im sorry you miss it. You can get these item from player shop or they re release these item as a drop in one of normal mission. 

Edited August 28, 2021 by Killroy

[Lupophobia]

2 hours ago, Aelphasy said:

Something like Plains Overlord S gives around 15-20k per run (minimum, taking into account loot at the end, payout, copernia / olpad). Even in A, average missions give around 8-12k. Which mission in what rank gave you 10k ?

Even with all that, for some mission, FF/FM have better clear time. 

What makes you say that ? I feel that there is a good balance between the classes played.

Care to elaborate that point ? 

Man I always have issues quoting, I also took a small nap so It'll take some time to reply to everyone.
Specifically missions like Robotanical gardens, and S2 White beast. Yes the occasional material drop appears that's like 175 meseta and so on, but that's the equivalent of picking up pennies  in a mission. and yes this is as a FM/AF at times,
runs are fast in a party, but solo is a different story entirely. And it's really just RNG gutting me at times because there was a time I wasn't getting any items to drop for approx. like 15 missions then I do a party run with someone else and they finally get the weapon I'm looking for back to back while I'm sitting here puzzled, and then they also immediately get a rare. 
With my Newman, running out of PP charger is a non-issue or other resources is a non-issue.. Especially when I have incapacitate on MF, and there has been many more times where I found nothing in a run besides materials and the clear payout, then you have to adjust for the actual amount for items that are not reimbursed at the end. I actually felt more peace of mind playing MF over the classes I really enjoy because I wasn't wasting resources.

A great example is GT who can ignore enemy defenses with bows, have crossbows that allow for pistol like fire rate while containing the power of a shotgun pre buff, and access to kill shot.
WT has the benefit of being a fighter similarly to that of a FF with buffs and debuffs equipped and have a easy time with incapacitate with lvl 40 megid, but whenever they run into a Jarba they could always opt for bows to ignore defenses.

Even FT has bows with lvl 30 bullets and Megid and can handle these annoying enemies.

FG and GM can handle both situations to a similar degree.

Even seeing FF. Yes they can brute force just about anything, they're the strongest melee class in the game, and with FG being scaled to up to perform like FF they're both should in theory be in similar situations,
But it doesn't mean they can handle every enemy at the same pace as these other classes.

AT basically specializes in single handed combat better than the AF class, I think the class just needs a buff. But alot of the time I'm told to just use a single dagger PA because it spits absurd amounts of damage rather than playing towards a style I was comfortable with in official and didn't have an issue with before. If you have to play a specific way to enjoy your class then that means other aspects of the class are just weak. I believe the emphasis on making the class's single handed combat "Better" has overshadow the other tools it has to use. Great at single handed, But dual wielding weapons should perform just as well or they wouldn't have been included in the class. Two hands are better than one. 
and before its stated, Yes I know two-handed weapons aren't this class focus. I meant only the dual-wielding aspect should be stronger. But it still wouldn't exactly solve the issue of needing to use incapacitate to bypass some enemies.


WT honestly can do every class at once for melee, And while yes GT and WT are good classes, the only class that seems to be really lacking is AF, and while yes AF and FM have travel and can handle their targets quickly, when presented with enemies that cut their damage they don't exactly have a good way to handle them, AF has access to incap weapons, but FM is  handicapped for those situations.
How do you handle these better? save your SUV/Nano specifically for those? What about outside of that?

The key word here is "some missions" FM/FF can clear faster. But it doesn't mean they can't struggle.

 

2 hours ago, Killroy said:

Uhhh have you play the recent update that added next wave of S2? I have found so many of that weapon in S2 https://psu-clementine.net/wiki/index.php/Robotanical_Gardens

Thanks to the tier down drop system.

Vijeri / resist is like 1m in the player shop lol. Not that hard to make a mil 

If you participate the IC event and manage to find Pacifist, Catastrophe, Daylight scar Astral blade, or ticket weapon. you should be able to do fine at next S2 wave. Its not that hard if you fully gear up. TAs and efficient player able to solo just fine since they have correct gear. Casual player just want to play casual and chill talk in the lobby. Thats just how PSU ment to be play, I like this diffculty changes but it is not perfect because we are indeed taking damage similar to S3 and S4. Adjusting ATP/TP by little bit should be a fine spot. 

Honestly Im having fun time in clementine at this stage tbh lol.

Yes I have, that's exactly what I've been doing actually, and yes i have done IC on S2, My bamboo revear ended up fairly low in percentage, My astral blades had DA but low element, And I can't use items like Pacifist, Daylight Scar, Astral blade. the issue isn't my gear as I'm fine on that, its the long clear times for other missions whenever I go solo other things,  like Mad Beasts S2 and then having 3 jarbas chucking megid at you that each do like 2k dmg with armor that's 45%+
 most of the money I accumulated during IC went towards getting all the armor, and exterminator for my friend. as for vijeri / resist.. I didn't see any that were 1mil at the time, last i checked they were at 5m? incap isn't much of an issue on my AF than it is on my FM cause  having 21 stamina doesn't seem like its enough. and still feels like a 50/50 chance on whether or not I die on megid.(And alot of the time it seems more like 80%) the only mission that drops megid also have turrets that incapacity

2 minutes ago, Killroy said:

Enemies on S2 dieing really fast tbh lol. AT buff is overkill. The trade off is for enemies to do more damage to us if you have right elements armor to take less damage. If you miss a limited time event then im sorry you miss it. You can get these item from player shop or they re release these item as a drop in one of normal mission. 

Yeah the AT buffs is nice, not only that gas should also bring their skills to 30 at some point too making their A rank daggers have some serious usage.

[Zeta]

8 minutes ago, Lupophobia said:

AT basically specializes in single handed combat better than the AF class, I think the class just needs a buff. But alot of the time I'm told to just use a single dagger PA because it spits absurd amounts of damage rather than playing towards a style I was comfortable with in official and didn't have an issue with before. If you have to play a specific way to enjoy your class then that means other aspects of the class are just weak. I believe the emphasis on making the class's single handed combat "Better" has overshadow the other tools it has to use. Great at single handed, But dual wielding weapons should perform just as well or they wouldn't have been included in the class. Two hands are better than one. 
and before its stated, Yes I know two-handed weapons aren't this class focus. I meant only the dual-wielding aspect should be stronger. But it still wouldn't exactly solve the issue of needing to use incapacitate to bypass some enemies.

I'm curious what exactly you're looking for in regards to Acrofighter and two handed weapons. Like, are there specific PAs that you'd like to see buffs to?

In my experience Twin Sabers with Assault Crush is quite powerful, and I've used Twin Handguns for ranged DPS since their first buff (they're quite nice damage since they got buffed again). Haven't explored Twin Daggers or Twin Claws that much (partially because of the 36 PA limit, partially because I haven't gotten my hands on good enough daggers/claws quite yet).

[Selphea]

Overall I appreciate the work being done on Clem. I started playing around the same time PSO2NGS launched, so that should say a lot about how much faith I have in the Clem team compared to Sega! That said here's my concern with balance.

We have a burst damage meta.

Enemy DFP and MST stopped scaling at 100, so player damage is inflated. Zalure is multiplicative, so player damage is inflated even more. Twin Mayalee applies Lv5 Zalure so solo GM damage is also inflated. There's also the prototype system where DA amps your damage. Types will keep scaling in stats past Type 20 so they can squeeze out even more ATP and TP (not to mention a problem with changing the game from horizontal progression across different types to vertical progression speccing in a single type). There's some weapons that have Lv50 numbers at Lv40 and so on. And on the SE side, if something is vulnerable to incap and you use anything other than incap, like y'know, the element they're weak to, you're frankly wasting your time.

I can solo fine, I just need to abuse the broken stuff, like whichever PA has really high numbers on the DPS chart spreadsheet or using incap.

It's just that I can't shake off the feeling that I'm abusing broken stuff. Should I think about hitting enemies from behind so I hit less 0s? Nah waste of time after the change, gotta shave those seconds off my run. Should I try a non-meta build like EVP instead of stacking elemental % and going for Shijin or whatever high ATP set bonus in the current tier? Not worth. Should I use Cross Hurricane? Hahahahahahaha... no. Also most arm units are noob traps, just get an arm unit with 250+ ATP.

It's not that classes are very unbalanced, it's just that viable options within a class is quite one dimensional.

Edited August 29, 2021 by Selphea

[Lupophobia]

8 minutes ago, Zeta said:

I'm curious what exactly you're looking for in regards to Acrofighter and two handed weapons. Like, are there specific PAs that you'd like to see buffs to?

In my experience Twin Sabers with Assault Crush is quite powerful, and I've used Twin Handguns for ranged DPS since their first buff (they're quite nice damage since they got buffed again). Haven't explored Twin Daggers or Twin Claws that much (partially because of the 36 PA limit, partially because I haven't gotten my hands on good enough daggers/claws quite yet).

I think I mean in general for A rank weapons in general. Assault crush being buffed is nice considering it was my favorite PA to begin with, the issue with Twin sabers is more of a class limitation rather than the the actual abilities itself, end game the statistical difference between the best A rank twin saber and the best S rank twin saber is somewhere like 300~400 while these weapons also get things like PA damage amplifications to further widen the gap between S and A ranks. But overall in comparison to other classes it still drops off alot, esp. since both FF and FI use S and their attack scaling will be significantly higher than AF will even with their speed, Though this is more of an issue with sega's weapon scaling design to begin with as there's some really powerful A rank alternative for both A and S rank claws for example, but not exactly one for every A rank in the game. currently the balance between the two are fine as we're only on S2, but it'll definitely stand out alot more once S3 and S4 are out and even stronger weapons come out. it's more along the lines of, theres alot of overlapping items that dont really perform any better currently, so definitely my opinion will change later on. It's more of a current frustration with the class rather than actual endgame cause I can see getting some drops items that were almost nearly impossible to obtain in official (like needing 80 GBs  and masterswordman for some items..)  being potentially less annoying in clementine.

 

8 minutes ago, Selphea said:

Overall I appreciate the work being done on Clem. I started playing around the same time PSO2NGS launched, so that should say a lot about how much faith I have in the Clem team compared to Sega! That said here's my concern with balance.

We have a burst damage meta.

Enemy DFP and MST stopped scaling at 100, so player damage is inflated. Zalure is multiplicative, so player damage is inflated even more. Twin Mayalee applies Lv5 Zalure so solo GM damage is also inflated. There's also the prototype system where DA amps your damage. Types will keep scaling in stats so they can squeeze out even more ATP and TP. There's some weapons that have Lv50 numbers at Lv40 and so on. And on the SE side, if something is vulnerable to incap if you use anything other than incap, like y'know, the element they're weak to, you're frankly wasting your time.

I can solo fine, I just need to abuse the broken stuff, like whichever PA has really high numbers on the DPS chart spreadsheet or using incap.

It's just that I can't shake off the feeling that I'm abusing broken stuff. Should I think about hitting enemies from behind so I hit less 0s? Nah waste of time after the change, gotta shave those seconds off my run. Should I try a non-meta build like EVP instead of stacking elemental % and going for Shijin or whatever high ATP set bonus in the current tier? Not worth. Should I use Cross Hurricane? Hahahahahahaha... no. Also most arm units are noob traps, just get an arm unit with 250+ ATP.

It's not that classes are very unbalanced, it's just that viable options within a class is quite one dimensional.

Thank you for this as it seems this is exactly what I'm trying to say. If I'm playing a class I'm not exactly playing it because I want to use something that would melt my enemy, rather I like to play my class because I enjoy it.
It's like what an older user once mentioned about travel PA's being the main reason why they no longer play, I don't play FM/AF because i want to run around everywhere super fast, I mean it's convenient, yes but I play these classes because I love both the use of twin sabers, claws, and  DS and feel that attack speed really makes some pa's function better or have a better flow to them. I would assume anyone farming the most recent content, with some of the best equipment they have to offer would be doing content fast and very efficient, but this is just unrealistic to assume everyone would always have the best gear of that content, just to do that content. 
It really feels linear in terms of how your MEANT to play a class rather than actually just playing the class you enjoy. Again I could be wrong, but this is how it appears to me.

Also in regards to A ranks drops also applying to S2, I thought this was always a case that the lowest tier item would also be within that pool, the recent update seems to have adjusted based on how I thought it worked before? but for some reason I havent seen any of the lower tier items.. I havent found any orochi agitos and twin caladbolgs in my drops from robotantical gardens... maybe my luck is just really really really shit, geez.. Now i'm.. more puzzled. 
 

[milranduil]

1 hour ago, Selphea said:

Overall I appreciate the work being done on Clem. I started playing around the same time PSO2NGS launched, so that should say a lot about how much faith I have in the Clem team compared to Sega! That said here's my concern with balance.

We have a burst damage meta.

Enemy DFP and MST stopped scaling at 100, so player damage is inflated. Zalure is multiplicative, so player damage is inflated even more.

DFP/MST stopped scaling because if it went on much further, player damage would get throttled hard by % reduction on enemies with the new damage formula. Enemies with 350DFP take 26% reduced damage which is already much, much more effective as a stat than even 1000DFP was before the change. Buffs/debuffs were changed to be multiplicative because before zalure was *useless*. The only way to keep it effective is for it to be multiplicative due to the damage formula (old or new).

The majority of the power creep comes from several different sources:

・we have much stronger weapons at S2 than we ever did on official. MUCH stronger. i personally view this as necessary to spread out the drops more. otherwise, everyone would be weak as shit going into s3 where just EVERYTHING drops, and it makes progression feel worse. the introduction of more items into the system to help balance out the curve of available weapons will help the progression feel better (the whole GC system Marm has talked about), but it's too late and not really necessary to nerf what we already have access to. 

・many PAs have been adjusted/buffed compared to official, but not all. there are plenty of PAs that never see the light of day simply because they have not been buffed enough, adjusted correctly, or don't have a large hitbox to reliably hit stuff.

To be frank, even on S4 official, stuff just died fast in a party. That's how it was, that's how PSU is. By trying to make stuff overly tanky without adjusting PP usage or how much PP weapons have, the game just becomes tedious rather than more difficult. Right now, enemy HP is a fair bit higher than official, but it's not enough to make it tedious yet though I think they need to be careful not to overdo it further with S3/S4 HP or it quickly will become very boring, especially since bosses are buffed by a lot compared to official as is.

Ignoring drops, by far the largest problem is the other enemy stat buffs (ATP/ATA/TP/EVP).

・enemies currently are dealing MORE than many S4 enemies dealt on official, and S4 was already difficult as it stood WITH GAS. again, without changing a lot about the game, just throwing more stats at the enemies doesn't make them "tougher", it just makes the game feel tedious.

・various enemies need adjustments/fixes due to getting the sword icons (all humanoids). the extra ATP they have from the base enemy file on top of the sword icon they shouldn't have makes them essentially impossible to fight on S2. 

・as if getting hit for 1500 wasn't enough, the enemies have more ATA too meaning you're less likely to counter when you aren't getting one shot. because the default hit rate formula multiplies enemy ATA by 10 (which is normal), even the small enemy ATA buff feels impactful.

・0s by themselves were already a problem to begin with on official, so giving enemies increased EVP is just a big no-no. 

Edited August 29, 2021 by milranduil

[Lupophobia]

11 minutes ago, milranduil said:

DFP/MST stopped scaling because if it went on much further, player damage would get throttled hard by % reduction on enemies with the new damage formula. Enemies with 350DFP take 26% reduced damage which is already much, much more effective as a stat than even 1000DFP was before the change. Buffs/debuffs were changed to be multiplicative because before zalure was *useless*. The only way to keep it effective is for it to be multiplicative due to the damage formula (old or new).

To be frank, even on S4 official, stuff just died fast in a party. That's how it was, that's how PSU is. By trying to make stuff overly tanky without adjusting PP usage or how much PP weapons have, the game just becomes tedious rather than more difficult. Right now, enemy HP is a fair bit higher than official, but it's not enough to make it tedious yet though I think they need to be careful not to overdo it further with S3/S4 HP or it quickly will become very boring, especially since bosses are buffed by a lot compared to official as is.

Depending on the enemy, the scaling feels "just right" for the enemies at their current level, but when it comes to enemies with sword+shield buff and the fact that enemies can also buff themselves to deal more damage causes some situations to be a bit dreadful, and it's not every enemy either.  As for the damage scaling on enemies right now, it definitely needs some tweaking cause i'm still taking 1100 damage on foie with 45% fire armor and a waist unit tha further increases my resistance to the elements,

One thing to note is that because of this players have shifted from settling with just one armor, to absolutely needing 6 armors to take up their inventory, so when armor becomes rare, it ends up being a similar issue to how striking weapons in the game are handled. rather it seems like the damage scaling was in adjustment to having 50% elemental armor for almost every element, and when there's missions that have various enemies that deal multiple different elemental attacks and having their own element then it it's like your juggling through so many systems just to accomodate that, I feel armor element should be buffed to 60%, and that for every off elemental attack then it would apply half that value rather than having to switch back and forth, However the element that your weak to will  scale all of that damage at once. (assuming you have vijeri rainbow and 60% armor, thats +85% to a foie being chucked at you with your nice sparkly ice armor.)

[Selphea]

For the record I'm okay with stuff dying fast. It's what makes TAs fun to watch.

Parties will always clear fast because missions were designed to be soloable. I would be very concerned if 6 players can't clear a soloable mission fast! Unless it's something like Ohtori but that should be party-focused content.

The main issue I have is (A)TP's value keeps getting preserved or going up but the value of every other stat is dropping.

The other issue i have is that enemy levels and HPs are getting inflated to compensate for the lack of DFP and MST scaling. I would rather see enemies with lower level but with DFP and MST scaling slightly. At least there's less chance of ATA / EVP / etc breakage.

Edited August 29, 2021 by Selphea

[milranduil]

11 minutes ago, Lupophobia said:

Depending on the enemy, the scaling feels "just right" for the enemies at their current level, but when it comes to enemies with sword+shield buff and the fact that enemies can also buff themselves to deal more damage causes some situations to be a bit dreadful, and it's not every enemy either.  As for the damage scaling on enemies right now, it definitely needs some tweaking cause i'm still taking 1100 damage on foie with 45% fire armor and a waist unit tha further increases my resistance to the elements,

One thing to note is that because of this players have shifted from settling with just one armor, to absolutely needing 6 armors to take up their inventory, so when armor becomes rare, it ends up being a similar issue to how striking weapons in the game are handled. rather it seems like the damage scaling was in adjustment to having 50% elemental armor for almost every element, and when there's missions that have various enemies that deal multiple different elemental attacks and having their own element then it it's like your juggling through so many systems just to accomodate that, I feel armor element should be buffed to 60%, and that for every off elemental attack then it would apply half that value rather than having to switch back and forth, However the element that your weak to will  scale all of that damage at once. (assuming you have vijeri rainbow and 60% armor, thats +85% to a foie being chucked at you with your nice sparkly ice armor.)

I honestly don't know how anyone can think enemies without their sword/shield feels "just right". I go fight a Lv155 Go Vahra (without sword) with 46% lightning armor on + rainbow unit and take 500 non-crit. Last room of Robo Gardens has Ubakradas and Shinowas (neither are buffed), whichever element I'm not wearing, I take 1000s per hit. These enemies run into you super fast, so it's not like anyone can sit back and "play safe"; enemy AI has been sped up so they run into you purposefully. The current state of enemy ATP/TP isn't "challenge" by any means.

9 minutes ago, Selphea said:

For the record I'm okay with stuff dying fast. It's what makes TAs fun to watch.

Parties will always clear fast because missions were designed to be soloable. I would be very concerned if 6 players can't clear a soloable mission fast! Unless it's something like Ohtori but that should be party-focused content.

The main issue I have is ATP's value keeps going up but the value of every other stat is dropping.

ATA remains enormously important the entire game, especially if the 0s change goes through. You choose LKK in a mission with Deljabens, you're going to feel the damage decrease a lot from the ATA with the higher variance. EVP is one of techer's most important stats since you want to JC hold techs. Enemy to player formula also uses a % reduction for DFP, so that stays useful through S4 in particular.

Edited August 29, 2021 by milranduil
rewarded 1st paragraph

[Selphea]

1 minute ago, milranduil said:

ATA remains enormously important the entire game, especially if the 0s change goes through. You choose LKK in a mission with Deljabens, you're going to feel the damage decrease a lot from the ATA with the higher variance. EVP is one of techer's most important stats since you want to JC hold techs. Enemy to player formula also uses a % reduction for DFP, so that stays useful through S4 in particular.

I'm referring to the upcoming change where you won't hit 0s anymore, so the impact of each ATA point is lower.

As for EVP, what I mean is enemy ATA is so high that what used to give you a 50% chance to evade may only give 40%, so the impact of each point of EVP is lower.

We're saying the same thing really.

[Lupophobia]

10 minutes ago, milranduil said:

I honestly don't know how anyone can think enemies without their sword/shield feels "just right". I go fight a Lv155 Go Vahra (without sword) with 46% lightning armor on + rainbow unit and take 500 non-crit. Last room of Robo Gardens has Ubakradas and Shinowas (neither are buffed), whichever element I'm not wearing, I take 1000s per hit. These enemies run into you super fast, so it's not like anyone can sit back and "play safe"; enemy AI has been sped up so they run into you purposefully. The current state of enemy ATP/TP isn't "challenge" by any means.

Yeah, but something like a polty isn't nearly as bad, I feel like there definitely needs to be a balance as to how the enemy damage formula is done because its can work for some enemies, but other enemies still taking a large considerable amount of damage even though you have resistance to that enemy can be disgusting, alot of the time smaller mobs didn't use to do much and at some point you would end up not taking damage from them at all, but like the example you just provided, Shinowas and ubakradas  dealing like 1200 per hit is rough, especially when you consider the fact that the robots in the same mission cast foie at you, and in the case of ubakradas is like "Do i want to put on ICE armor so I don't take huge chunks of damage from this thing" or "do I want FIRE on so i don't get mowed down by a spam of low level fire techs"  and its not even just this mission that does this, its how enemies that can cast techs function period.. they like to always switch up their elements alot of the time, Like Jarbas, Do you want dambarta? or do you want Megid? did i mention that this enemy can also buff itself? Kamazli's love throwing ice at you, so  its like, do I want Ice armor on even though there's a swarm of ground based boomas that like to do 1k damage while they also swarm you? Usually getting stunned or frozen also means your most likely going to get killed, so do you sacrifice your damage resistance to prevent yourself from being trapped by rng? It's a mess, But I dont think it would be too bad if we weren't also restricted by our current levels, as the additional stats would've helped with some of the enemy damage scaling, and players missing. the issue is, currently we're dealing far more damage than original, and there's also no damage cap in place to prevent this like there was in official.

[milranduil]

6 minutes ago, Lupophobia said:

Yeah, but something like a polty isn't nearly as bad, I feel like there definitely needs to be a balance as to how the enemy damage formula is done because its can work for some enemies, but other enemies still taking a large considerable amount of damage even though you have resistance to that enemy can be disgusting, alot of the time smaller mobs didn't use to do much and at some point you would end up not taking damage from them at all, but like the example you just provided, Shinowas and ubakradas  dealing like 1200 per hit is rough, especially when you consider the fact that the robots in the same mission cast foie at you, and in the case of ubakradas is like "Do i want to put on ICE armor so I don't take huge chunks of damage from this thing" or "do I want FIRE on so i don't get mowed down by a spam of low level fire techs"  and its not even just this mission that does this, its how enemies that can cast techs function period.. they like to always switch up their elements alot of the time, Like Jarbas, Do you want dambarta? or do you want Megid? did i mention that this enemy can also buff itself? Kamazli's love throwing ice at you, so  its like, do I want Ice armor on even though there's a swarm of ground based boomas that like to do 1k damage while they also swarm you? Usually getting stunned or frozen also means your most likely going to get killed, so do you sacrifice your damage resistance to prevent yourself from being trapped by rng? It's a mess, But I dont think it would be too bad if we weren't also restricted by our current levels, as the additional stats would've helped with some of the enemy damage scaling, and players missing. the issue is, currently we're dealing far more damage than original, and there's also no damage cap in place to prevent this like there was in official.

I'm confused what you have a problem with then... small mobs should do low to no damage if you have strong, endgame armor equipped with matching element. Polties do lowER damage because of their individual modifier (75% ATP of normal), but if you don't have lightning armor on, you'll still get bopped for a few hits for 200-300 each. 

I did True Darkness the other day and a Bel Pannon's tiny damdiga was hitting me as a capped MF for 300s, knocking me back every hit. The shit should be doing ZERO damage to me lol

Edited August 29, 2021 by milranduil

[Lupophobia]

2 minutes ago, milranduil said:

I'm confused what you have a problem with then... small mobs should do low to no damage if you have strong, endgame armor equipped with matching element. Polties do lowER damage because of their individual modifier (75% ATP of normal), but if you don't have lightning armor on, you'll still get bopped for a few hits for 200-300 each. 

I'm saying smaller enemies are definitely more manageable than other enemies, and that yes there are definitely some enemies that are tuned to high that seem to almost disregard your elemental resistances to them.
if that clears it up, i'm saying that if the system that was made to be more difficult then enemies hitting slightly harder is fine, but it has to be done in moderation, and not to the degree at what we are at currently.
We shouldn't be getting 1~3 shotted by nearly every other enemy, and 1~2 shotted by enemies on S2, when there's two more difficulty tiers to also come out.

Edited August 29, 2021 by Lupophobia
just to clear up some confusion.

[Lupophobia]

Working as intended. Nothing wrong with this.

[milranduil]

No, you can watch someone play fF or FM and they still take a fuck ton of damage from physical attacks. They just have more HP to survive so they don't get 2 shotted. The enemy attack is the problem right now, not the formula.

[Lupophobia]

3 minutes ago, Selphea said:

Just a random thought here but the impression i get is the MF player is getting hit a lot harder by physical attacks and the FM player is getting hit a lot harder by techs.

That to me sounds like a side effect of giving DFP and MST more impact than retail. Enemy damage has to go up to scale with the average, but the extreme low end like MF DFP and FM MST runs into problems because their scaling doesn't keep up.

 

Just now, milranduil said:

No, you can watch someone play fF or FM and they still take a fuck ton of damage from physical attacks. They just have more HP to survive so they don't get 2 shotted. The enemy attack is the problem right now, not the formula.

Yep,  Specifically in that image above, I'm on AF specifically. I took 2k from a megid shortly after too, my MST is lower than that of a FM but definitely much higher than that of a FF.

But to be fair, these jarba's are busted, and buff and it was my mistake for not having dark armor on in time. but still very punishing considering that THING can one shot on RNG, this mission likes to have 3 of them placed in one spot too.

[milranduil]

Even when the base enemy stats are fixed, Jarbas will still do a lot of damage, and that's just normal. They are very difficult enemies to fight for any class. The other thing that makes jarbas more frustrating than normal is that their megid pushes back when it shouldn't so it's easy to get stun locked.