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Limit Break of Dam-techs on Acrotecher


Seority
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Apologies if this has been discussed previously, but I'm curious as to why Acrotechers have dam-tech limit breaks?

For a set of techs that require you stay in place, with little use of the increased casting speed (only cast once then hold), along with limiting TP from being only on wands or TCSMs (and the max 4% elemental bonus) compared to rods seems a bit useless. The only reason I can see for this is because AT is very melee focused class so close ranged techs, like dam-techs, would fit.

Wouldn't single or line techs limit breaks be more fitting for Acrotecher? They gain an advantage with the increased casting speed of wand's/TSCM's and the Acrotecher's and don't miss out on much TP from not being on rods (since casting speed can negate the difference to a minimal amount.) If SE was the purpose for this decision, then level 3 SE's from max level 30 Dam-techs are also on Gi-techs, which AT has the LB for anyway. Also, they compliment AT's quick and agile style of play, since you're not stuck in one place (I'm lookin at you whip PAs! 👈😠)

If this came to be because the different types of techs (single, line, gi-, dam-, zon-, etc.) limit breaks had to be equally distributed among the tech classes, then why not switch MF's single/line tech LB with AT's dam-tech one? Masterforce can use dam-techs in better fashion (rods = +12% elemental damage and more TP) than AT's can. However, if this is not the case, then just switch out dam-techs for line/single techs on AT.

Again, not sure why this is. Doesn't really make sense. Any thoughts? 🤷‍♀️

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As you mentioned, AT most likely acquired LB Dam-TECHs so that each Limit Break category is equally distributed. With the way LB TECHs were introduced and distributed on JP, it "made sense" for AT to get LB-Dam TECHs... I never liked using them for the exact same reasons you brought up.

I 100% agree that LB Single TECHs are compatible with Acrotecher's quick, close range playstyle. LB Single TECHs adds to and compliments Acrotecher's toolkit far more than LB Dam-TECHs ever will. You're not alone in thinking this, as I've brought this up before as well.

However, hard disagree for switching LB Dam-TECHs on AT with LB Basic on MF. You would completely gut Masterforce's ability to fight multi-target enemies just to give Acrotechers slightly more TECH utility. LB Simple is a MUST on Masterforce.

In addition, LB Dam-TECH proficiency is one of Fortetecher's defining attributes. Fortetecher's AoE DPS is slightly higher than Masterforce's in certain situations because of it. If Masterforce had LB Dam-TECHs, it and Fortetecher would start to play too similarly. 

The easiest solution: Just give Guntecher, Wartecher AND Acrotecher LB Single TECHs. Leave LB Line TECHs for FT and MF only.

This solution maintains the "equally distributed Limit Breaks" rule: Each Hybrid would have 3 Limit Breaks, and FT / MF would still have the upper hand with 4 Limit Breaks. Although it would be nice, I really don't see LB Line adding much to any hybrid-techer toolkit the way LB Simple does.

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As someone who love to play as AT (and as a newman) ^_^

i think i would love to protect this idea of having dam spell on limit break (especially since we have no SA spells yet)

I love the idea that i can counter lots of monsters in tight spot in front of me, without any target cap. (sadly LB dosen't gives the unrestricted hits, but it is for the best)

Other than that, the only class that has it available, is fortetechy, which also makes sense, because they have no gi. But if AT wouldn't get it, a class would needlessly "must" take it, to make at least two LB for the dam spell. But more to the point, if it's not dam spell, then what would be the best for AT?

Here's my list a concept why wouldn't it be a good idea.

Line: almost equal value with the dam spell, not going to lie, i'd like to have it, for a bit more ranged ability, but at the end, i know i'm not going to be a ble to enjoy the line spell's advantage, as i should get closer, to heal, debuff, and tagging monsters.

Single: Hit restriction + 2 target + grants.... This is something what i do to level my masterforce :*D It would make the class a little bit broken, because the same cast speed, but cheaper.

Ra: Already has Gi.

Nos: Imagine, if casting dam spell is anoying, then imagine concentrate on Nos! it's worse, and you have card weapons, which i find better solution on ranged alternative on flying bosses, like De ragan.

 

But to answer on certain aspects on your post (and maybe the answer):

18 hours ago, Seority said:

For a set of techs that require you stay in place, with little use of the increased casting speed

(just for the record, the cast speed metters if you fight anoying monsters such as Golmoro who would run jump back right before the gi spell would hit them. Also if the monster would cleverly jump out of it's range, you can maintain it, and the  next move he will get hit. If it's dambarta they can get frozen, even better, no more  jumpy-jumpy.

18 hours ago, Seority said:

limiting TP

It's a support class sweetheart, your task isn't to out dps masterforce or fortetecher.

18 hours ago, Seority said:

wands or TCSMs (and the max 4% elemental bonus)

Accroding to the wiki: TECHNICs

Two TECHNICS: 7% elemental bonus (For Rods) 10% elemental bonus (for Wand/TCSM)

It's a hidden bonus.
as it says...
In-game, the values will still display as 0%, 4%, 8%, or 12%, but the extra added percent is hidden.

But i agreed, i'd take A rank rods for AT

18 hours ago, Seority said:

Wouldn't single or line techs limit breaks be more fitting for Acrotecher?

Line would be hard to maintain, since you must anchor yourself in the middle of everything especially if you play around more than one melee. (and some case more the ranged ones can get in trobule as well, so maintain line advantage is harder, than stick with the melee.)

Single LB would be broken as above mentioned, if you would go with grants, and then gi.or just grants till dead.

18 hours ago, Seority said:

level 3 SE's from max level 30 Dam-techs are also on Gi-techs

Dam spell proc faster than recast GI, also if a monster enter the radius, while the spell is ongoing, just try to listen the effect, it's hearable (especially with dambarta's crystal like sound, so neat) that they get hit soon as they enter the radius, even if the next damage is not affect the monster that is still in the radius.

Dam spell is underestimated :( altough, play as AT, the range isn't way too legendary compare to FT (Or MF, but they has no LB)

18 hours ago, Seority said:

(I'm lookin at you whip PAs! 👈😠)

^_^*

Whips have it's own use, especially if you attack bosses, and you have a  powerful whip, aaaaand if you're not a newman ^_^* for speed i'd just use saber :3

18 hours ago, Seority said:

then why not switch MF's single/line tech LB with AT's dam-tech one? Masterforce can use dam-techs in better fashion

They wont get dam because FT already has, and they're def not going to be happy to give up Si spell LB for dam ^_^*

18 hours ago, Seority said:

rods = +12% elemental damage

Once again

TECHNICs

Four TECHNICS: 21% elemental bonus, but already mentioned.

14 hours ago, Giro said:

The easiest solution: Just give Guntecher, Wartecher AND Acrotecher LB Single TECHs. Leave LB Line TECHs for FT and MF only.

No...

The solution isn't lie in Si spells, let alone take away SI from MF. Especially that they start with it at lv 1 for a reason.

14 hours ago, Giro said:

This solution maintains the "equally distributed Limit Breaks"

Each class is meant to play in a different way, therefore the solution would be "how to use it" rat her than playing with numbers.

So forte is a frail class, thus having RA is a must because you can keep distace, Si and line would give that advantage too.
Master's Gi would make awful decision, but they cast faster, it's sort of risk /  reward. But  they have Si and line too. to maintain ranged advantage.
Hybrids aren't mean to use Only spells, making GT's Ra and WT's Gi reasonable. Giving them  Nos is questionable, but sure has a high range to begin with. Altough GT will just use their precious bow instead. But that's GT life  :P
Lastly AT

As above mentioned, certain spells will make more or less useful, however, using any of them even without LB is perfectly fine, since AT is as versetile as a support can be.

-----------------------------------

But good thing to say to the AT

that we have range bonus at 41+ bur most support spell aspect . ^_^

But true question here....

Dam spell = hold the button, and the spell exist long as you hold it....

Regrant, and Megiverse  the same.... Should they get it dam bonus too?

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On 8/27/2021 at 7:34 AM, Fruzsina said:

(just for the record, the cast speed metters if you fight anoying monsters such as Golmoro who would run jump back right before the gi spell would hit them. Also if the monster would cleverly jump out of it's range, you can maintain it, and the  next move he will get hit. If it's dambarta they can get frozen, even better, no more  jumpy-jumpy.

Speed matters more when you cast more spells. If you only need to cast a tech once, it's better to wait a half second longer to do more damage, not to mention the range on TCSMs and wands compared to rods being smaller as well.

On 8/27/2021 at 7:34 AM, Fruzsina said:

It's a support class sweetheart, your task isn't to out dps masterforce or fortetecher.

anne-hathaway-im-not-your-baby.gif

Am I stating that AT should out DPS an MF or FT? I wish I could understand your hatred for doing more DPS as a support class if it's an option. 😩

On 8/27/2021 at 7:34 AM, Fruzsina said:

Accroding to the wiki: TECHNICs

Two TECHNICS: 7% elemental bonus (For Rods) 10% elemental bonus (for Wand/TCSM)

It's a hidden bonus.
as it says...
In-game, the values will still display as 0%, 4%, 8%, or 12%, but the extra added percent is hidden.

But i agreed, i'd take A rank rods for AT

Thank you for looking this up. I was not made aware that it's different from what it shows in game. However, rods go against the AT play style (quick and mobile,) so I'll disagree with that.

On 8/27/2021 at 7:34 AM, Fruzsina said:

Dam spell proc faster than recast GI

 Both tech types have level 3 SE of their respective elements. (LV3 burn, LV3 freeze, etc.) It's true that Dam-techs will tick faster than casting Gi-tech's repetitively, but not by a significant amount. The major down-point to Dam-techs is that you are stuck in one spot to do so, while Gi-techs give you more freedom. You can quickly do a Gi-tech then let off a heal in-between casts. That's not an option with Dam-techs.  

On 8/27/2021 at 7:34 AM, Fruzsina said:

Each class is meant to play in a different way, therefore the solution would be "how to use it" rat her than playing with numbers.

Going along with what I stated above, Dam-techs play against the nature of Acrotecher. You can't heal or buff or move. ATs should be speedy and mobile, not stuck in one place, operating as a worse Freeze EX (until the JP techs come out that is. 😋

I, with you, would also say, "Well, that's how it is and we just have to deal with it," if this was still an official server where we had zero say in what things are. That not being the case here, I find it healthy to question the structure of things, specially since we can do something about it.

On 8/27/2021 at 7:34 AM, Fruzsina said:

So forte is a frail class, thus having RA is a must because you can keep distace, 

For some reason I was under the impression that the Forte's are the tankiest versions of each class, however that's not the case for Techer. 
(Fortetecher stats on left, Masterforce on right)

spacer.pngerQHkzw.png

Why (at level 20) does MF have 20% more DFP then FT and only 12% less HP??? 
If any class deserves the title of, "Glass Cannon," it should be MF! This is something that should be discussed at some point. If FT is basically worse-MF, why the heck would one play one? 😤

 

Anyway, if this is down to, "Dam-techs should be used for SE effects," then I would propose their SE levels to be increased, or (somehow) boost the SE proc rate on Acrotechers specifically to justify the sacrifice to mobility and the ignorance to AT's increased cast speed. Same would go for Regrant and Megiverse.

 

Edited by Seority
Thanks Zeta for correcting my stat statement error.
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3 hours ago, Fruzsina said:

Single: Hit restriction + 2 target + grants.... This is something what i do to level my masterforce :*D It would make the class a little bit broken, because the same cast speed, but cheaper.

Single LB would be broken as above mentioned, if you would go with grants, and then gi.or just grants till dead.

LB Simple TECHs are not broken in general. If they're not broken on FT or MF, why would it be broken on any of the hybrids? They have smaller hitboxes and do less damage overall on the hybrids.

The point of giving LB Simple TECHs to AT is to fill it's lacking toolkit against multi-target enemies. More specifically, on enemies with Skill Half Guard (skill resistance) or Bullet Half Guard (bullet resistance).

A good example, facing a Polavohra: You do more damage with Skills on AT than you would with TECHs on this enemy, even on a Newman. 

 

3 hours ago, Fruzsina said:

No...

The solution isn't lie in Si spells, let alone take away SI from MF. Especially that they start with it at lv 1 for a reason.

In my previous post, I firmly disagreed taking away LB Simple from MF. I even said "LB Simple is a MUST on MF."

My solution just gives LB Simple to ALL techers. This is what each class would have with my solution implemented:

MF: Simple, Line, Gi, Nos

FT: Simple, Line, Ra, Dam

GT: Simple, Ra, Nos

WT: Simple, Gi, Nos

AT: Simple, Gi, Dam

 

3 hours ago, Fruzsina said:

Each class is meant to play in a different way, therefore the solution would be "how to use it" rather than playing with numbers.

As above mentioned, certain spells will make more or less useful, however, using any of them even without LB is perfectly fine, since AT is as versetile as a support can be.

I agree that LB TECH capabilities are meant to enforce a certain playstyle and each techer has it's own unique advantages because of it.

However, AT won't play all that differently with LB Simple TECHs because it already has a close-ranged playstlye. It's just an additional tool for enemies it struggles with. 

See my Polovohra example above again: LB Gidiga won't outDPS Saber or Dagger Skills because they're designed for 4+ target situations / bossing. LB Dam-TECHs don't have hit restriction removal, so they're completely out of the equation in this situation. There are a handful of other examples where LB Gi- or LB Dam- TECHs do nothing for Acrotecher where LB Simple would.

It's no longer a matter of "each class is meant to play in a different way" when there are questionable gaps in how this class deals with some enemies. Sure, you can just use Skills. But that doesn't address the incompatibility of LB Dam-TECHs on AT when there a more useful LB could take it's place. (LB Simple). See Seority's point below...

41 minutes ago, Seority said:

...Dam-techs play against the nature of Acrotecher. You can't heal or buff or move. ATs should be speedy and mobile...

 

TL;DR - My solution doesn't take away any LB capabilities classes already have, it doesn't change how AT plays, it fills questionable gaps in AT's TECH toolkit and it certainly isn't balance breaking.

Edited by Giro
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19 hours ago, Giro said:

However, hard disagree for switching LB Dam-TECHs on AT with LB Basic on MF. You would completely gut Masterforce's ability to fight multi-target enemies just to give Acrotechers slightly more TECH utility. LB Simple is a MUST on Masterforce.

 

4 hours ago, Fruzsina said:

Hybrids aren't mean to use Only spells, making GT's Ra and WT's Gi reasonable. Giving them  Nos is questionable, but sure has a high range to begin with. Altough GT will just use their precious bow instead. But that's GT life  :P

 

If keeping the LB's semi-equal was the point then let's see what we have currently:

GT - Ra@10, Nos@15
WT - Gi@10, Nos@15
FT - S&L@5, Ra@10, Dam@15
AT - Gi@10, Dam@15
MF - S@1, Gi@5, L@10, Nos@15

So:

2 Ra's, 2 singles, 2 lines, 3 gi's, 2 dam's, 3 nos's. Not exactly equal, but at least two classes have access to each.

Not sure how or why this came to be (again, if true) but let's see how we could shuffle this around to make more sense.

Dam on AT is obviously one I'd say needs to be moved. Nos on WT is also very odd and questionable. WT is a melee-based class so Dam would make more sense that way as well as access to level 40 techs. How about we take Dam off of AT, give it WT replacing Nos, and just add Single tech LB to AT? (Essentially trade 1 Nos for 1 Line or Single.)

This is what I think the list should be:

GT - Ra@10, Nos@15
WT - Gi@10, Dam@15
FT - S&L@5, Ra@10, Dam@15
AT - S@10, Gi@15
MF - S@1, Gi@5, L@10, Nos@15

Does this seem fair at all?

Agreed @Giro LB's should be distributed based on each classes ability to use it, rather than evening out their access between the classes.

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1 hour ago, Seority said:

Speed matters more when you cast more spells.

Yes... but dam spell actually cast faster, on the disadvantage of only attacks limitlessly anything in front of you. And yes... You need to stay stationary as well.

32 minutes ago, Seority said:

Am I stating that AT should out DPS an MF or FT? I wish I could understand your hatred for doing more DPS as a support class if it's an option.

You misunderstood me here ^_^*

I don't say that AT must be the weakest class since it's a support, because i can play really well as AT (especially since i've learned from several of my own mistakes i've made ever since i've joined ^_^)

Accroding to your post, you know the power of Sa spells right? :3
Taking TCSM with both of them, and you can counter almost literally everything. 

Once the Sa spells done  their deals, you can use stay near them for gi/dam spells without worry. Then if the effect is done, simply recast. and use gi/dam again.

It will take more time, but i can assure you it's a a little bit broken :/

So fingers crossed they release that spell soon hahaha :D

Under the picture, i'd comment... I didn't said such thing!

32 minutes ago, Seority said:

Thank you for looking this up, I was not made aware that it's different from what it shows in game.

You're welcome

32 minutes ago, Seority said:

However, rods go against the AT play style (quick and mobile,) so I'll disagree with that.

Well i've only mention that, since there are no class with A rank rod only. Not because the  play style.

32 minutes ago, Seority said:

Both tech types have level 3 SE of their respective elements. (LV3 burn, LV3 freeze, etc.) It's true that Dam-techs will tick faster than casting Gi-tech's repetitively, but not by a significant amount.

There are certain missions/areas, where this speed will be the actual reason you would pick dam instead of gi.

32 minutes ago, Seority said:

The major down-point to Dam-techs is that you are stuck in one spot to do so

Even with that...

34 minutes ago, Seority said:

You can't heal or buff or move

Yeah, but if  the party allow it, then you can spend some time dealing damage. Depends how strong  the party is, you can either use "heavier" spells, than quicker. But if you're the main damage dealer in the party, something went wrong ^_^* or you're leveling low levels.

38 minutes ago, Seority said:

if this was still an official server where we had zero say in what things are. That not being the case here, I find it healthy to question the structure of things, specially since we can do something about it.

Well i know it's not the official server, however, we both can have opinions. And if they're not matching, feel free to talk about it ^_^
Sure there will some disagrees, but after all, if we're not talk about it, things can get out of hands.

43 minutes ago, Seority said:

For some reason I was under the impression that the Forte's are the tankiest versions of each class, however that's not the case for Techer. 

And wartechy?

Well statwise forte is better, but you can't deny the fact that casting faster, is key for gibarta. on moving bosses, such as De ragan, or monsters, with trample damage. Where's the healing should be near.

47 minutes ago, Seority said:

If any class deserves the title of, "Glass Cannon," it should be MF!

That is why i said....

3 hours ago, Fruzsina said:

but they cast faster, it's sort of risk /  reward.

They have low HP, but really sweet damage on the other hand.

50 minutes ago, Seority said:

If FT is basically worse-MF, why the heck would one play one?

FT is has it's power too!!!
Their Ra LB is something i really enjoy when i were unlocking MF, which is something that isn't available for MF.

Playing as FT even in early game i died less ^_^

So FT is good too! MF is good too, But this post is about AT am i right?, Which is ALSO good ^_^

56 minutes ago, Seority said:

Anyway, if this is down to, "Dam-techs should be used for SE effects,"

I use it for that till SA spells ^_^  that's for sure. Once Sa spells will be available, Dam spells will be.... forgotten from AT's gear i'm affraid....

58 minutes ago, Seority said:

SE proc rate on Acrotechers specifically to justify the sacrifice to mobility and the ignorance to AT's increased cast speed

That is something what i wonder if the devs have the power to it....

59 minutes ago, Seority said:

Same would go for Regrant and Megiverse.

Yasss

See, we can agreed on things :3

28 minutes ago, Giro said:

LB Simple TECHs are not broken in general

(looking at my grants, that i can stunlock stuff, and make things have lowered MST)
Yup, it's not broken ^_^

But thing is, Forte and master are the Main casters, they can't wont use other broken things, such as axes, crossbows. So don't take away their love ^_^

32 minutes ago, Giro said:

MF: Basic, Line, Gi, Nos

FT: Basic, Line, Ra, Dam

GT: Basic, Ra, Nos

WT: Basic, Gi, Nos

AT: Basic, Gi, Dam

Let's just assume Basic = Single
+  you've forgotten Mastery at lv 20

MF: Already done
FT: Once again... It's something they have
GT: I won t start it .... You can read my holy war i've opened in a different topic
WT: Single targets are actually taken care of in a way better soluti on, Which is axes, and certain A rank swords with gravity.
AT: That would make me smile, and would drop MF leveling right away (I'm serious)

And an appolgise for misunderstood your post about taking Si away.

42 minutes ago, Giro said:

However, AT won't play all that differently with LB Simple TECHs because it already has a close-ranged playstlye

That is one of the reason i'm playing MF for a bit, the other is that i want to unlock it to lv 20.
Once i'm lv 20 MF, i'm back to AT. If in the meanwhile AT gains Si buff, dropping MF for AT ^_^ which is already lv 20+

49 minutes ago, Giro said:

It's no longer a matter of "each class is meant to play in a different way" when there are questionable gaps in how this class deals with some enemies.

There are gaps, which is going to make a hybrid decide what part of their advantage they're willing to use, or not.

For the same reason you wouldn't would only decide pick cast as a masterforce.

If you're playing as a hybrid, (and i'd willingly call AT as a hybrid in this case)

Playing as newman, you might decide to use your  advantage, and use more magic.
Playing as a cast, you might use whips, or sabers more, than a Si spell in the end.

---------------------------------------

5 minutes ago, Seority said:

WT - Gi@10, Dam@15

Taking away Nos from WT is sort of unfair... As can use it efficiently to reach up for monsters  such as De ragan, or De rol Le with it.

7 minutes ago, Seority said:

AT - Gi@10, Line@15

Line is equal in power as dam (an is what LB dose)

But i'd stick with dam, would be more awesome if regrant and megiverse gain would gain benefit

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Am I getting this right then @Fruzsina?

Dam-tech limit breaks are better than any other limit breaks on Acrotecher because:

They can tick faster than recasting Gi-techs.

They then, theoretically, can SE more than Gi-techs.

Despite the fact that they limit your options for casting other spells and take away all movement, which hinders the point of the class which is support.

This is ok because parties should allow you to be unavailable for a certain period of time, even though dealing dps is in your words, "if you're the main damage dealer in the party, something went wrong ^_^* or you're leveling low levels."

And AT can not have single or line LBs because, "Hybrids aren't mean to use Only spells,"

Am I missing something here?

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1 hour ago, Seority said:

WT - Gi@10, Dam@15

I'd probably quit wartecher if this happens. Losing Nosmegid means WT now has no way to kill multi hitbox light enemies with TECHNICs (and we already lack a way to kill multi hitbox dark enemies, since no single LB for Grants), and losing the single target DPS of Nosdiga would be a huge hit to the class. 20% more damage on dam technics does not even close to compensate.

Edited by Zeta
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9 minutes ago, Zeta said:

I'd probably quit wartecher if this happens. Losing Nosmegid means WT now has no way to kill multi hitbox light enemies with TECHNICs (and we already lack a way to kill multi hitbox dark enemies, since no single LB for Grants), and losing the single target DPS of Nosdiga would be a huge hit to the class. 20% more damage on dam technics does not even close to compensate.

That's a fair point. TBH, if Acro's had Nos, that would be the same for them. And they dont even have bows. 😏

Seems like Dam-techs are just... 💩 unless you can use a rod.

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I'd have to disagree with one thing about RA techs when the idea of GAS is brought up, and that while I agree that AT has ways to play up-close with daggers/whips with its increased attack speed,
it essentially just becomes budget WT by doing so, so although I'm a strong advocate for it, I'll play against it for awhile say that AT needs more range capabilities, and having access to single/line I feel should've been a standard for all classes regardless, and that MF and FT should have access to every LB as they are the core advancements to tech based classes.
* the only difference i would say is their use of RA/GT as one would have to get close while they other stays further way

Having single/Line tech would make that lvl 40 tech buff make even more sense, While AT would gain lvl 40 techs at some point through gas like it used to, would also increase it's Ra-techs hit count by +1 While also complementing the range of their Gitechs. And for FT I would put their Ra techs at +2 instead of +1 at lvl 41 (as GAS would come to to also further boost their outputs.) the would mean with LB their Ra-techs could hit 6 targets instead of the regular 5 with LB, making them even more capable with their techs than before. and with these buffs, and also mean MF can hit 5 targets with Ra techs without relying on LB. This would add more reason to play FT than MF as they would have lvl 50 techs, lvl 40 buffs, and their own way with handling enemies without needing to get close to them, While also allowing classes like WT/GT/AT with more utility for their techs aswell. 

The only class I won't exactly mention in this discussion is gun techer because...
It's guntecher, most if not all its gun-capabilities can do what techs and are somewhat irrelevant, I'll only acknowledge it as a support gunner class.
 

Edited by Lupophobia
p.s. if it weren't for Seority's like i wouldn't have realized how much I butchered this response, the first time, AHHH!!
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I'm leaning towards LB Ra because the Singles are really strong. I know LB Single is tempting and I wouldn't mind it but historically PSU had a problem where Diga is used just about everywhere even though many other techs exist. As it stands, afaik on Zoal Goug even a Fortetecher is better off LB Diga-ing the neck than using LB Radiga. I have a feeling LB Ra could use a tiny buff like a +10% damage but it's hard to tell unless Ra techs get more use.

By Sega's design AT has Lv30 Attack Techs but Lv20 Skills and Bullets. That to me looks like it was meant to use Attack Techs more often so it seems fine to give it 1 more LB than Wartecher or Guntecher which had 40 Skills / Bullets and 30 Attack Techs.

Another option is I wouldn't mind saving that extra LB to make an exclusive one for Support techs, like an LB Sa tech that allows Sa techs to do damage like Infinity...

In fairness to Dam techs, speed isn't the only thing AT has. Dam techs have nice iframes off a counter and who better to counter than a class with one of the highest EVPs and Zoldeel. Not to mention the 80% regen to hold it for a long time. Also LBs came with Counter Bonus so there's an additional multiplier that isn't here yet. But generally Dam techs are kind of gimmicky I agree.

10 hours ago, Seority said:

Why (at level 20) does MF have 20% more DFP then FT and only 2% less HP??? 
If any class deserves the title of, "Glass Cannon," it should be MF! This is something that should be discussed at some point. If FT is basically worse-MF, why the heck would one play one? 😤

I always thought it was because FT could Deband and Jellen 😆

Edited by Selphea
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11 hours ago, Seority said:

Dam-tech limit breaks are better than any other limit breaks on Acrotecher because

*sigh* Like i said, it has it's situational use! But i wont going to repeat myself over and over again.

In certain missions you'll most likely use a Dam spell, over Gi spell spell because it has hit cap. So use it like an offensive shield, untill Sa spells in my book. Needless to mention, once Sa spells become available, AT's "offensive role" will "change", Once the barriers become available, the support will make your life about, cast them over and over and over again. And if you have free time, cast sa spell, giresta, buff or debuff.  The better the positioning, the better chanse you can keep a party in say S3 handy keep alive, eyes closed.

One of the unquestionable good thing with it (out of the many other situational use), is if someone would attempt to attack a weak character (Either because of bad gear, lack of experience, low level ....) You can certainly protect him/her with offensive metter, by cast a dam spell on the person. Anyone whom would attack him, will get pushed back, and chanse to take status effect.

Same you "could" do with regrant, but that would just upset them, toss away.
Same you "could" do with megiverse, but it's rather costy.

And if the person is bothered by the spell, because it's making him anoyed

There's a Chat Commands, that will prevent the blinding power, and you can happily protect your pupil
/noblind - Enables/disables the display of other players' high level TECHNICs. When enabled, this will show other players' TECHNICs at lv20 or below.

11 hours ago, Seority said:

And they dont even have bows.

(head pat crying card weapons)

I know bows have better range, but you can hit dragon mid air with it, if you fancy, so....
And they're homing missiles, so if your target run/fly at top speed, the  card will hit them.  You can see them at various bosses. Such as dragon kinds, and onmagoug (aka pretty)

11 hours ago, Lupophobia said:

The only class I won't exactly mention in this discussion is gun techer because...
It's guntecher

Welcome to the club ^_^

5 hours ago, Selphea said:

I always thought it was because FT could Deband and Jellen

MF wins, because the remastered foverse apply the best MST down debuff. LB on Nos(diga) and Gi, cast speed.

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8 hours ago, Fruzsina said:

*sigh* Like i said, it has it's situational use! But i wont going to repeat myself over and over again.

So what was stated previously was correct then?

If that's the case, and I'm not misunderstanding you, then I disagree wholeheartedly. Can Dam-techs be useful on Acrotechers? Yes. Is it the best option for limit break on Acrotecher? Well, you haven't convinced me.

  • We both agree that Dam-techs stifle flexibility, but I see this as a huge negative, while you seem to not to agree about that. 
  • You say that Dam-techs are better than Gi-techs since they SE better because of tick speed compared to re-casting Gi-techs. While I do agree with this, it is a minimal difference. The SE level (aka proc rate per tick) is the same on Gis and Dams.
    • The fact that Dam-techs are so restricting with movement&options while using it, greatly outweighs this small advantage of tick speed and goes against the very nature of an AcrotecherSee? Now I'm repeating myself.  
  • A reason to why Dam-techs LBs are better than the rest hasn't been stated yet. @Giro made great points to why single's would be better, but your response in a sense was, "That's just the way things are." That's not a justifiable reason.

 We can agree to disagree if you're done explaining and that's fine. I simply asked because it's difficult to understand your points and I didn't want to take your stance out of context. (My inner English teacher is screaming right now heh.) Perhaps one day we can both experiment with these ideas and flesh them out a bit more beyond numbers and opinions. 

8 hours ago, Fruzsina said:

One of the unquestionable good thing with it (out of the many other situational use), is if someone would attempt to attack a weak character (Either because of bad gear, lack of experience, low level ....) You can certainly protect him/her with offensive metter, by cast a dam spell on the person. Anyone whom would attack him, will get pushed back, and chanse to take status effect.

When it comes to protecting a static ally, say another force casting Dam-techs, (😏) your Dam-tech is one option and may work better than Gi-s in that situation (as long as a majority of the threat is coming from a certain direction.) However, with this specific case, if enemies are surrounding them on all sides, whips would be a preferred idea since whips will hit more and faster than Dam-techs. Also, you'll have the option of blow-back if needed. AT's should protect their party for sure, however, if the ally is being assaulted majorly from one direction, then wouldn't line techs be a better option?

8 hours ago, Fruzsina said:

I know bows have better range, but you can hit dragon mid air with it, if you fancy, so....

As a ranged weapon, bows are the best. They have greater range and you can aim them much easier than cards. Cards let you have more mobility, but since you can't decently aim with them, they are mid-range at best. It's the same deal when it comes to Weak Bullet vs. Megid. Sure, Megid can hit more targets, but it's slow and it has limited aim. WT has access to both cards and bows, while AT does not. Aside from Noszonde and Nosmegid, AT has no long range capabilities. Another reason why even Nos-tech LBs would be preferred over Dam-techs. 🤷‍♀️

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20 hours ago, Seority said:

That's a fair point. TBH, if Acro's had Nos, that would be the same for them. And they dont even have bows. 😏

Seems like Dam-techs are just... 💩 unless you can use a rod.

There's also the fact that not all LBs are created equal. Line and Dam LBs are lackluster in comparison to the rest - all they do is a small damage increase. Every other type of LB fundamentally changes how the TECHNIC works (and sometimes also adds damage). Particularly dramatically in the case of Nos techs (well, Nos LB doesn't fundamentally change how nosdiga works but 50% power increase can't be argued with, this makes it strong enough to be useful for off element single target DPS). For Dam and Line techs, you can use them without the LB and all that happens is that you do a bit less damage. Nos techs without the LB? I doubt you'd even bother. Maybe nosdiga just to stun things. Maybe.

Unrelatedly.

On 8/27/2021 at 11:22 AM, Seority said:

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Why (at level 20) does MF have 20% more DFP then FT and only 2% less HP??? 
If any class deserves the title of, "Glass Cannon," it should be MF! This is something that should be discussed at some point. If FT is basically worse-MF, why the heck would one play one? 😤

You misread the tables a bit - you're looking at Type Level 100, not 20. At 20, FT has 12% more HP. I'm not sure how I feel about MF getting an extra 10% HP at 100 whereas FT doesn't, though. Looks like they get ATP instead (probably for bows).

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@Seority Out of respect, i decide to stop answer on this topic.

We're repeating eachother over and over.... I guess we have some sort of language barrier (probably my english, because i'm not native speaker...) somehow we can't skip, no metter how differently i try to shape my words....  I couldn't explain why's it really good ^_^

But prehaps one day, if we meet on the game, i can show you in action :3 Which may or may not convince you... But for the record, luckily it's only affect damage, not range. So if you take it away from me, it's just not going to give me a huge inpact, other than the 20% dmg :P. And so will still can protect my allies with it. So i'm not "aganst to become powerful" by you would suggest Si  :P  But okay i'm """convinced""" even if surely not ^_^*

----------------------------------------------------
But let me finish this with my final lines, if  you don't mind. On these i will answer if you have any question, but i don't think i need to praise dam spells, if it's not your taste, just let me keep my powers <3

So... In theory, i wait with being "offensive" till Sa spells are out. Because it would be awful if we would gain a temporaly buff. But even if it "could" stay. Then having the dmg buff from the Dam spell would make even more sense (this one applies if you would attempt solo run), because you'd simply freeze/shock lock them. And pop dam spell on the cornered army of monsters. Which is going to be good till Sa spells

10 hours ago, Fruzsina said:

once Sa spells become available, AT's "offensive role" will "change"


And for the ranged ability, the same way you feel bad about bows, the same ways you should understand the benefit of cards.
Less range, but you can move while attack.  At max level you're attacking with 4 cards on one target. Which IF only hits 500/attack 500*4 now add buff, and debuff.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Lastly, out of curioucity, we're talking a shielding spell, you wouldn't give it to a close combat support class, for either line or single. If i understand this post properly, right?... Who would get it, and for what price? I ask it because each and every LB has at least two class to gain reasonable benefir (Totally not going to bother myself about guntecher, so don't even bring it up other than they have "rightfully" claim for Nos and Ra LB)

Before you would start with give AT SI spell, i'll remind you this line....

23 hours ago, Fruzsina said:

That is one of the reason i'm playing MF for a bit, the other is that i want to unlock it to lv 20.
Once i'm lv 20 MF, i'm back to AT. If in the meanwhile AT gains Si buff, dropping MF for AT ^_^

I'm serious! If AT gains SI, It's going to make me swap right away. And solo the toughest missions.
I'd even stop leveling FM too :P until the devs set it back.
(Which of course means, dropping MF leveling, and my other toons)

 

Edit: wow i took a lot of  time into this post, and haven't see Zeta already post an hour ago....

Quickly quoute something i agree:
"For Dam and Line techs, you can use them without the LB and all that happens is that you do a bit less damage."
I use Dam spells enough to gain that damage up reasonable ^_^* But not going to lie, it could be stronger....

Edited by Fruzsina
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