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[Major feature Suggestion] Guardian Cash System Reimplementation as Clementine Contribution System


Lupophobia
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The Guardian's Cash Shop is notoriously known for its P2W system in PSU JP. It offered systems like changing ele, Guaranteeing an items success from 0->8 with 100% rate as long as you had the GC currency. It even had a system that allowed you to get a higher element on a weapon up to 40%, adding +1% per exchange, and if a weapon has no element, you could change it for an element and add +10% to it.

If you ignore the monetary aspect of the system, these changes seem very enticing, and I believe re-adding the system, but as a free method(for legal reasons obv), but have these systems become obtainable through A~S4+ mission farming.

For example, 
A:5
S1:10GC
S2:25GC
S3:40GC
S4:55GC

Higher difficulty, Higher the reward, More runs means players are rewarded for their efforts.
Some changes I was thinking of was 

Keeping GC untradeable and doesn't directly influence the market
Item's used through this system become Account Bound.

Add in the prototype-Exchange system. Allowing players to convert non-prototypes to other prototypes. but make it something like 2500 for the upgrade on S rank weapons. but 1750 for A rank weapons 
This means on a bare minimum of S2 a single weapon would take at least 100 runs to turn into a prototype per weapon for S grade, but 70 runs for an A grade.
When you consider that players may want to do this for every single weapon on their setup, this ends up being 15000 maximum cost if all weapons are S grade, which is 600 runs of S2 but if a player was doing S4, It would be cut down the time by over 50%

Allow attribute increase, change the 40% cap to 50%
This allows melee users to reach there maximum potential in fighting power, but should not be as cheap to do. Each 1% should be 250 cost regardless of rarity, So  to improve your weapon by 1% would only cost 10 runs on S2, or half the time on S4. but isn't nearly as time consuming as unlocking their prototype exchange upgrade. 

Grinding... This is still a messy subject, as there's still disagreements on the system being too difficult, or for others too easy. Some too expensive, etc..

If the grinding system was reverted, the GC system could be used to repair broken weapons, But only in increments of 1 with a standard cost of 300. this would take 12 S2 runs to increase the limit by 1.
The guaranteed grinding system could also be added,

1100 GC per grind for S rank, But only up to +7 instead of +8 like the old system.  Even on S4, This would mean, Each grind would be the equivalent of 20 runs to get a perfect grind.
Now this may sound silly, as it shouldn't be too hard to get your weapon to +7 <---This is risk, as the grind system would have in place the same old break system that reduces your maximum grind, meaning if you fail 0~7 your maximum grind rate will be reduced by 1 and your minimum rate would be reset to 0 Meaning you have to go back and repair your weapon, and when your out of GC your forced back into that same old grind system. until you can recover. Remember, alot of players play with a full palette  of weapons,  and if your a techer?  maxing out only wands and TCSMs? that's 14 weapons that you need to work with to get to +10.

To repair your weapon should not make it untradeable, However, to use the guaranteed system will lock your weapon to your account.

Now each grind definitely doesn't have the same value, so amounts could be gradually altered for proper balance. 

There could also be trade based items such as:
PA EXP booster. 100%(1hr)
EXP booster 75%(1hr)
RDR booster 75% (1hr)
MP booster 75% (3hr)
Ex Grinder+10 (has slightly higher grind chance of success over the standard A/S+10, by about 5% maybe 10% max.)
Grind Success booster. 5% (30m)
Ex Infinity grinders. (which should be expensive, maybe costing as much as an 750 this would bind your weapon on your account. I say 750 because 750x3 if your going from 7~10 would cost a total of 2250
Unbind tickets.
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****Unbinding ticket. (this would allow weapons to be unbound, but should be the most expensive option as this would lead to player profits. Or like, don't add it?
It shouldn't impact the economy as getting this weapon to prototype+10+unbound would be somewhat time consuming.
I'm talking maybe 300+ runs depending on how expensive unbinding tickets are made.
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The whole idea of the system is to reward players who play for longer periods of time and run missions as a sort of progression to improve upon gear the currently have. instead of farming without much of a reward.
Of course this is just a suggestion, anyone's allowed to tweak, address issues, and come up with their own ideas.

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I'm all for any system that awards for your time rather than luck. These should only be awarded in S+ mission IMO. The point scale seems reasonable. Would it be too off to guess that approximately 1 GC = 1 min of time? (For soloing at least?)

10 hours ago, Lupophobia said:

When you consider that players may want to do this for every single weapon on their setup, this ends up being 15000 maximum cost if all weapons are S grade, which is 600 runs of S2 but if a player was doing S4, It would be cut down the time by over 50%

Going off this estimate, that's 250 hours of mission time (roughly) to achieve this. Just pointing this out to help understand the time costs of this point system. Seems fine to me, since players will be running missions anyway, so why not more bonuses? 😄

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I would certainly look forward to a system like this, as Ultima PSOBB employs something similar to this and it has worked out pretty good over the years for them IMHO.

Any donations to the server were counted as "Donation Tickets" in USD amounts (1$ USD = 1 Donation Ticket) which were in turn used in several ways.

There was also a Donation Ticket List of weapons, armors and items you could exchange and redeem for with a GM for your tickets.

DTs would also stay with your account here via the forums and kept a running tally as you used them.

They would even be used as a means of trade, along with Photon Drops, Photon Spheres or even other items found in-game.

I would encourage the Clementine staff to look into implementing such a system, fairly, while at the same time, I'm not a big proponent of pay to win.

Regardless, the incentive to donate and keep the server alive with the Donation Ticket system worked out pretty good for Larva and the Ultima server.

After 10 years or so of existence as a PSOBB server, I'd say it's a effective system and I've certainly never heard of any real issues with it during my time there.

Just my 2 pesos from an old PSOBB vet... ^_^

P.S.: If you guys are serious about looking into implementing something like this, SOLY is the guy you want to talk to on the Ultima forums, he set all of that up or at least helped, AFAIK.

Edited by Trigunman
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7 minutes ago, Trigunman said:

I would certainly look forward to a system like this, as Ultima PSOBB employs something similar to this and it has worked out pretty good over the years for them IMHO.

Any donations to the server were counted as "Donation Tickets" in USD amounts (1$ USD = 1 Donation Ticket) which were in turn used in several ways.

There was also a Donation Ticket List of weapons, armors and items you could exchange and redeem for with a GM for your tickets.

DTs would also stay with your account here via the forums and kept a running tally as you used them.

They would even be used as a means of trade, along with Photon Drops, Photon Spheres or even other items found in-game.

I would encourage the Clementine staff to look into implementing such a system, fairly, while at the same time, I'm not a big proponent of pay to win.

Regardless, the incentive to donate and keep the server alive with the Donation Ticket system worked out pretty good for Larva and the Ultima server.

After 10 years or so of existence as a PSOBB server, I'd say it's a effective system and I've certainly never heard of any real issues with it during my time there.

Just my 2 pesos from an old PSOBB vet... ^_^

P.S.: If you guys are serious about looking into implementing something like this, SOLY is the guy you want to talk to on the Ultima forums, he set all of that up or at least helped, AFAIK.

I'm all for a helping the server stay alive with donations, however I believe keeping this system purely free to play would be better,  as I don't think it's actually legal to do something like this. I believe if players do want to show support, then having something minor like name's being highlighted ingame or a decorative discord name would be better, It would rub players the wrong way to spend money for something like this, which is why having the system changed to be rewarded purely on progression would be the best idea.

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2 hours ago, Lupophobia said:

I'm all for a helping the server stay alive with donations, however I believe keeping this system purely free to play would be better,  as I don't think it's actually legal to do something like this. I believe if players do want to show support, then having something minor like name's being highlighted ingame or a decorative discord name would be better, It would rub players the wrong way to spend money for something like this, which is why having the system changed to be rewarded purely on progression would be the best idea.

The system is still free, you just have the option of donating and getting some things perhaps YOU want in return as a way of saying thanks for donating.

This works great for those folks who don't always have the time to grind for what they want (especially something very hard to get with a low drop rate) and have the money to "speed up" their progress. (time is money as they say)

The Donation List also didn't have EVERY single thing in the game available to purchase with the DT system, some things like Dark Meteor (strongest shotgun in the game) or the rest of the Dark weapons in the game were unavailable.

It can be tweaked to limit how much it requires to get said item on the list, therefore rather very rare items, the most sought after would be the most expensive obviously.

This would limit the system being abused I would think.

While I'm glad of your concerns of legality concerning this practice, I think you should consider that both servers are PRIVATE, therefore the respective server owner(s) have complete control and all legal interest in it to do as they please with said server up to my next point...  Considering the fact these server's software are using what is still technically SEGA's IP, we've long breached the grey area of legal matters long ago in that regard, what would this matter by now I would think?

Edited by Trigunman
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I wanted to also point out that the old GC feature allowed for weapons like Ely Sion to have an element other than Light on official, or weapons like Halp Serafi/Dagger of Serafi.
As for the legalities of running  a private server, I believe as there's no monetary aspect to towards playing on the server it should be legal iirc, I think the only issue that comes up is software piracy,
which is more of a case of taking paid content and redistributing it, PSU on PC was always free to play, and as it stands, no money is required to get on and play the game.
While I do not know what is and isn't legal I try to keep away from subjects that would result in the possibility that clementine would get taken down. There's also a debate about PSU being abandonedware,
as the game is no longer being hosted by sega, or updated.

 

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The same legalities that apply to PSO private servers should be the same towards our PSU one (even though much of the game has been backwards engineered to make it functional.)

People donate money, meaning no exchange of goods is happening, and they are then given tickets. If someone donates, but does not receive tickets, they legally cannot get a refund because it's a donation, not a purchase. Those tickets are then used in an in-game exchange for in-game items (lines of code for other lines of code.)

However, Marm & others have stated previously that they do not want to take donations like these for this server. Heck, it took years of convincing just to get a patreon going! Keeping this whole system in-game/free only is most likely and I'd argue the better option. (Sadly even if I'm one of those people who have more money then time. 😅 )

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A system like this definitely should NOT be one people can pay into. Sure, you can farm for it in game; you can earn it. But then this guy over here can go "Hmm... Well I want this faster so I'll throw cash at it." Congrats, you just entered mobile game territory. That is something that should be avoided like the plague, especially since the amount of features listed would "highly encourage" people to drop way too much money into it, and those who either can't or don't want to pay in get left in the dust. You will create the "free to play vs. pay to fast" dichotomy in an instant, and I think that's very bad.

 

Now the numbers presented... I think do need slight tweaking? The math kinda makes the prospect a little intimidating? 600 S2 runs for that 15,000 cost, or roughly 273 runs on S4 (which isn't a thing yet). Not to mention only starting it on A cuts newbies out of the loop until a certain level, which isn't very fair. Even if they only get pennies and nickles, C and B rank runs should let people earn it too.

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3 hours ago, ScarletMel said:

A system like this definitely should NOT be one people can pay into. Sure, you can farm for it in game; you can earn it. But then this guy over here can go "Hmm... Well I want this faster so I'll throw cash at it." Congrats, you just entered mobile game territory. That is something that should be avoided like the plague, especially since the amount of features listed would "highly encourage" people to drop way too much money into it, and those who either can't or don't want to pay in get left in the dust. You will create the "free to play vs. pay to fast" dichotomy in an instant, and I think that's very bad.

 

Now the numbers presented... I think do need slight tweaking? The math kinda makes the prospect a little intimidating? 600 S2 runs for that 15,000 cost, or roughly 273 runs on S4 (which isn't a thing yet). Not to mention only starting it on A cuts newbies out of the loop until a certain level, which isn't very fair. Even if they only get pennies and nickles, C and B rank runs should let people earn it too.

Yeah these numbers may definitely need some tweaking, It was more of an example if anything. With prototypes being as rare as they are, being able to choose your prototype shouldn't exactly be cheap, I wouldn't expect newbies to be hard grinding for a C~B rank just to get a prototype of it, but I'm sure if it was really necessary C~B prototype exchange could be added for a lesser cost.  It would also mean adding a value to the lower difficulties for the system. I kind of assumed that players would typically want to escape the beginner classes as soon as possible so I didn't give it much thought. The values are also high because I was thinking it would be something that the mid-endgame player would be focused on, I wouldn't expect something like this to be finished all in a single day or two, but something achieved throughout the play experience. It's just something to keep in mind when a player would decided on using alot of resources on a weapon they may want potentially keep forever. Which is why I also opted for A having a value as they could work on, as A rank's difficulty is more of the introduction to that midgame farm. New players would probably swap out their old weapons rather quickly aswell so constantly buying prototypes then tossing them immediately seems like a waste of resource, but there is systems in place like the EXP bonuses, so I can see something being worked out for C~B rank, but yes would be like scraping pennies, there wouldn't be much that a player would use GC/CCS on for early weapons.

The system may need to be adjusted, perhaps S1 needs like 400~ runs, but S2 requires 300~ runs for 6 weapons to be turned into prototypes for S grade, S3 approx. 225 and S4 150.
Weapons of lower rarities may require less time/ significantly reduced resources, like if C only earned 1 GC a mission it would only take 5 to upgrade a c rank to prototype, 
and if B earned 2 they would require 20 max for a B rank prototype.
It would also serve as an introduction to the system. Maybe the values themselves are fine, however maybe the amount earned could be improved for A~S4. Finding the sweet spot would be for the best, as I also don't like grinding for extensively long periods of time, It'll lead to burn out, but there does need to be a balance to the system.

The boosters should also have the lesser variants Like the ones from the daily quest system included for a low cost so that early players can work on the 25% EXP booster with enhanced duration, but later on work towards the improved one, not too expensive, but definitely maybe 3x the cost of the starter booster.
Perhaps even the daily system can be reworked so that it focuses on killing enemies within level range/Boxes for rewards, and doesn't restrict them to a specific enemy/boss, and have it reward GC too daily/weekly?
this way you can choose what rewards you want.

As for monetizing this system, I'm also against it.

Edited by Lupophobia
I'm stupid and left so many typo's geez.
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4 hours ago, Lupophobia said:

With prototypes being as rare as they are, being able to choose your prototype shouldn't exactly be cheap, I wouldn't expect newbies to be hard grinding for a C~B rank just to get a prototype of it, but I'm sure if it was really necessary C~B prototype exchange could be added for a lesser cost.  It would also mean adding a value to the lower difficulties for the system. I kind of assumed that players would typically want to escape the beginner classes as soon as possible so I didn't give it much thought.

Ah, sorry. I guess I should have phrased myself better. What I mean is that C~B rank should have payouts too in order to at least start them along the road that'll really pick up as they rise up in level to A~S2. Show new players that "Hey you'll be earning this as you clear missions, you'll earn more of if it as you challenge higher difficulties, AND it'll be really useful!" Whether they can buy C~B prototypes is... well I mean some people might buy B rank prototypes for polishing off those HU/RA/FO type levels.

Edited by ScarletMel
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