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A really, really crazy discussion about all of the things.


Marmalade
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What are your overall feelings toward the changes detailed in this post?  

154 members have voted

  1. 1. How do you feel about the Character Progression detailed in this post?

    • I like raising the Level Cap by a full difficulty tier instead of 4~5 levels every update.
      115
    • I like the experience bonus to new characters.
      127
    • I like the removal of enemy tagging requirement.
      126
    • I like the MP requirement for basic types being reduced.
      120
    • I like the MP payout being increased by 50%.
      131
    • I like that Dying no longer reduced clear rank.
      102
    • I like that Limit Break hitboxes are enabled for all levels.
      94
    • I like that all of the clothing is in the clothing store, instead of Exchange MIssions.
      114
    • I like the increase to Rare Enemies and Rare Mission probabilities.
      129
    • I like the removal of the Lobby Restrictions for new players.
      120
    • I like the idea of relaxing Mission Level Requirements.
      83
    • I like that Attack Accuracy affects variance instead of hitting 0.
      113
    • I like the ideas for the Meseta Sink.
      91
    • I like the idea of relaxing Guardians Daily and Weekly Quests.
      121
    • No Comment
      6
  2. 2. How do you feel about the Prototype and Grinding suggestions?

    • I like the idea of using The Upgrade Device for weapon repairs.
      86
    • I like the idea of lowering the chance of Max Grind reduction when failing a Grind.
      81
    • I like the idea of Prototypes having Max Grind Potential of 15 instead of the current system.
      93
    • I like the idea of Attribute Grinders to customize my weapon how I want.
      106
    • No Comment
      25
  3. 3. How do you feel about the approach to Drops in this post?

    • I like the idea of filling the gap between good and bad items.
      114
    • I like the idea of Weapons dropping with lower Max Grind Potential to bolster drops and keep The Upgrade Device relevant.
      71
    • I like the idea of Weapons and Shields dropping with lower Element %, again to bolster drops and increase the chance of items dropping.
      87
    • I like the idea of having an Item Sink in exchange for an alternative currency to use in guaranteed rewards.
      117
    • I like the idea of all Synthesis items having the ability to drop in missions.
      110
    • No Comment
      15


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I believe it comes back to weapon depth and the lack thereof. Depth has slowly been stripped away from weapons in Clementine due to what I would say is a major misunderstanding of the problems at hand. Similar to what Gaz mentioned in their stream, there is simply 0/10 and 10/10. There's no longer an in-between and the item will only ever be its best or its worst. I touched on this in my original post, and why it's important to have weapon depth, and why it really needs to be reinstated. People are afraid of it because they think it will be terrible and awful and it will take them 5 months to find one item and 500 grinders to 10/10 it, but that simply isn't the case.

If every weapon dropped at 50%, which is for some reason very slowly creeping up, and every weapon can 10/10 with ease, then you can expect the drop rates to become more difficult and the market price to rocket even more. This has already happened, and it's pretty much the reason we're in the position we are with drops. The elemental floor was raised, and the chance of 45-50%'s was massively increased, so now items have less depth and they drop in pristine condition more often. As a result, drop rates go down, Meseta income goes down, the item becomes even more unpleasant to hunt, and the market price goes into unaffordable territory.

Having 5/5's on the market is good and so is 1/1, especially with the inclusion of The Upgrade Device, because it gives people another option besides 500+ runs. As I've said in a previous post, it's the same as buying junk online, restoring it, and then flipping it for a profit or keeping it. Say you want an old Playstation 1 game, and your choices are Disc Only $10 / With cracked case and no manual $15 / Light scratches, case, manual $50 / Unopened factory sealed $1,000. You could easily piece together a respectable copy for less than $50 or $1,000, if you wanted to put the time in. Now remove those options except the unopened factory copy, and all you've got is work hard for money or hope you come across one somehow. That's Clem.

So, right now if I want something, I can either run the mission as many times as it takes, or I can just not. Alternatively, I could hunt until I find a "bad" one, or I could get a "bad" one off the market, then I could repair it, and hurray. I did it in less time and effort than if I had to hunt for a good one and got nothing while I did it.

There are, or were, multiple roles to play here, and it's different for everyone. Some people like hunting difficult items, some people like grinding weapons all day, some people like synthesizing goods, and some people just like making Meseta. The idea is that people fill their part and have options to obtain what they want through their own means, but right now those options are also removed, and everyone is expected to do the same thing. There is more to PSU than running the same missions 1000 times, but there is also more than just grinding a weapon to 10/10. I don't agree that 10/10'ing a weapon is considered the overall end game, but it is an end point for something and some people. The inclusion of GAS will be another end game goal for players that want to take part.

People will argue that repairing it is pointless and that they might as well not break, but because of what I've explained above, it should be somewhat obvious why there's more to it than just adding an extra step to grinding, and why broken weapons hold value to people. You will (or should) sell your junk 40% 0/3 on the market because someone will buy it and repair it. They make money off your junk, and they can feed that money back to you. Do this enough and you will have enough Meseta to buy a 10/10. Item depth is important to the game and the community, even if people don't think it to be.

Now, this is where I get incredibly confused, and I can only assume people have somewhat misunderstood me in the past. I'm afraid people think I'm trying to make things even more difficult when I'm not. I'm trying to make things better. A lot of people voted that they liked the idea of filling the gap between good and bad items (I.E 10/10 and 0/10), but have then voted against bringing item depth back in some form or another. They are mutually necessary. The more "bad" items that can drop, the higher the drop rate can be, the more Meseta people can gain, and the more option there is on the player market. Options are important, and so is stimulation! Both of which is something that has seemingly been removed from Clementine through a barrage of complaints and a misunderstanding of those complaints.

If weapons aren't going to break through grind failure, then weapons should have the potential to drop with less than 10 max grind potential, because the drop rate will be higher, and you can repair it or sell it for Meseta for... essentially free. I could argue that this is better than getting nothing at all. If grind fails break weapons again, then they can continue to drop at 0/10 no problem, but pushing all of the item depth into elemental percent alone isn't fair, especially for striking.

3 hours ago, Seority said:

Is there a way to make both camps satisified with the grinding system? Probably not completely. What about weapons break and can be fixed back to x/10 but at a great cost? Then statistically, those whom play the most will have a higher chance of obtaining 10/10s and it's still an available option to everyone.

No, not particularly. Someone will always hate something about it, and not just grinding in particular, but people hate things for different reasons. I see why people like weapons breaking and all that, and I can see why people would rather just be handed a 10/10 after 2 runs. Really, it all comes down to options and stimulation, which are being removed rather than added. I'm not against the idea of weapon repairs, because I know that it can be made in a way that isn't a tedious and time-wasting mechanic, but I'm afraid people think it will be what it is now, but with the added bonus of a 2 minute run to the 5th floor between grinds. Just... no. Getting your weapon to 10/10 will be less time consuming than it is now, and will cost you less resources, with the added bonus of there being more options to obtain that weapon, for everyone else.

3 hours ago, Seority said:

I heard some say for the market. Why would one be excited about selling a 6/6 when a 0/10 would possibility be worth more? Is this in assumption that drop rates will also increase because of this? If one desires 4/4s or 2/2s, etc. then why not just grind to 2/10 and stop? 

Well the drop rates would increase! Which is something everyone likes to hear, I'm sure. Grinding to 2/10 isn't entirely the same as 2/2, because the potential has value as well, even with the ability to repair it. Either in the form of it CAN go to 10/10 or it may cost less to repair in order to 10/10. The value of an irreparable 2/2 is beyond me though, but humans also have a fascinating relationship with numbers.

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If we go back to the old system of weapons breaking, can we at least keep the 'grinders below +10 are actually usable' bit of the current one? A big part of the reason I never touched grinding S rank weapons before the change was the fact that only +10s were worth using, which is a huge problem when you're playing a striking class and need to grind like 6x (7x if including neutral) as many weapons as tech or ranged focused characters do. 

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1 hour ago, Zeta said:

If we go back to the old system of weapons breaking, can we at least keep the 'grinders below +10 are actually usable' bit of the current one? A big part of the reason I never touched grinding S rank weapons before the change was the fact that only +10s were worth using, which is a huge problem when you're playing a striking class and need to grind like 6x (7x if including neutral) as many weapons as tech or ranged focused characters do. 

Yeah, but how they remain useful is up for debate. I'd be fine if it was like +10 added +10%, and +1 added +1%. Or if it was needing +1 to get 1/10, and +10 to get 10/10. There are a lot of grinders though, and if it were viable I'd probably lean more on the side of only having a few, rather than 10 of each. Of course infinity grinders become useful again as well, so, that's fun.

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If The Upgrade Device is coming, the people who want broken weapons can have broken weapons, the people who want to 10/10 every weapon will be able to 10/10 every weapon by fixing the heck out of it. It seems like that should make both sides happy.

On grinders being usable, I have an unpopular opinion about that. I would rather have +10 grinders be the only usable ones if  that means we spend 90% less time at the NPC. If the idea is we need to trash a lot of grinders to 10/10 a weapon I'd rather trash them all at the same time at the NPC shop than 1 at a time at an NPC with a slow ass loading bar. Right now it's just ridiculous, even getting something to +6 it breaks so darn often and you have to sloooowly climb back up from 0. It's not even a risk getting to +6, just a waiting game.

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3 hours ago, Marmalade said:

Yeah, but how they remain useful is up for debate. I'd be fine if it was like +10 added +10%, and +1 added +1%. Or if it was needing +1 to get 1/10, and +10 to get 10/10. There are a lot of grinders though, and if it were viable I'd probably lean more on the side of only having a few, rather than 10 of each. Of course infinity grinders become useful again as well, so, that's fun.

I'm fine with how it is currently in that you can use a variety of grinders for the lower grinds, then focus on +10's after like 6/10 or 8/10 depending on how lucky  you feel. I would however request that we move away from most of the grinders coming from Copernia/Olpad. It's just another step that makes grinding more tedious, or you pay the market extra to the people who spend an hour exchanging their 3 stacks of each. I should mention copernia/olpad were definitely not the source of most grinders on official either. Right now, you get the vast majority of your grinder market from copernia/olpad in boss boxes, not area drops from running any mission. It's very common to run for a while and come out with like 5 grinder base S drops (the item itself).

To adjust grinder drop rates to be more consistent, I would suggest:
-replace copernia/olpad with grinder base S in boss boxes, but decrease the rate to 1/3 or 1/4 (not 1/2, see below)
-increase the drop rate of grinder base S as a global area drop by a lot (specifically that on difficulty S or above a grinder base is almost always S, not A)

Players shouldn't have to run boss missions just to... find grinders but that's pretty much how it is right now. There are a lot of worthwhile missions that people run (robotanical, sakura blast soon, military subway, etc.) that just don't drop a lot of grinders simply because there are no boss boxes.

Copernia/olpad should be a bonus for more grinders, not the source imo.

Edited by milranduil
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18 minutes ago, milranduil said:

-add grinder base A to synthesis shop for cheap; grinding A-ranks should remain easy and cheap

Agree with most of your post but just wanted to say Grinder Base A is already in the synth shop for 1000 each. I've been buying batches of them to make and grind my As.

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shows how much i grind A-ranks LOL i'll remove that part then.

edit: i want to add that my point about upping area drop grinders doesn't just mean most of them should be S, but that they should drop a LOT more often as well. it's not uncommon to do 4-5 runs and walk away with 0 grinder base A/S currently.

Edited by milranduil
added point regarding area drop grinders
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17 hours ago, Selphea said:

If The Upgrade Device is coming, the people who want broken weapons can have broken weapons, the people who want to 10/10 every weapon will be able to 10/10 every weapon by fixing the heck out of it. It seems like that should make both sides happy.

That's the problem I have understanding when it comes to breaking items. What's the point of an item breaking if it can be fixed? Nothing will be permanently broken. For those whom advocate for items breaking, it should be for permanent breaks with no fixing, for it to actually be different than what the system is down. Hense, a break&repair system won't satisfy those players.

My post was more a question to those who would prefer unrepairable breaks. What makes that system better than the one we have now? If people just want to see numbers change for whatever reason, I'm seriously lacking some information as to why this is needed, when in theory it changes nothing in the end (except take extra resources and time.)

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24 minutes ago, Seority said:

  

That's the problem I have understanding when it comes to breaking items. What's the point of an item breaking if it can be fixed? Nothing will be permanently broken. For those whom advocate for items breaking, it should be for permanent breaks with no fixing, for it to actually be different than what the system is down. Hense, a break&repair system won't satisfy those players.

My post was more a question to those who would prefer unrepairable breaks. What makes that system better than the one we have now? If people just want to see number change for whatever reason, I'm seriously lacking some information as to why this is needed, when in theory it changes nothing in the end (except take extra resources and time.)

As Marm has said, the point is to up the drop rates, but allow for a larger spectrum of items and broken items/drops to exist. Meaning if you have plenty of GC due to farming a lot and you get a broken item as a drop or from the shop, you can 40%, 10/10 it, change the element, whatever.

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5 hours ago, milranduil said:

As Marm has said, the point is to up the drop rates, but allow for a larger spectrum of items and broken items/drops to exist. Meaning if you have plenty of GC due to farming a lot and you get a broken item as a drop or from the shop, you can 40%, 10/10 it, change the element, whatever.

4 hours ago, Selphea said:

The point of the item breaking is to reduce it's market value so that they can go on the market for cheap and the people who want items to break can buy those.

The point of them being fixable is the same as the point of re-hunting a copy of the same item. Either way you spend time to get another chance to 10/10 it.

I understand this. I like this. I agree with this. 
This isn't what I'm talking about however.

Someone who prefers weapons breaking with no option to fix, will remain unhappy with this system. To this person, 10/10's should be rare and hard to achieve, making them special and desirable. If items start dropping lower than 0/10, then all the better I'm assuming to the these players. Unless the option of repair is challenging to achieve, I don't see the ones who were chanting for weapons breaking in Gaz's discussion enjoying the next grinding changes. 

Personally, I'm looking forward to the new changes, even though I'm not keen with weapons breaking. 👍 (Weapons that drop as 0/X<10 is fine with me.)

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1 hour ago, Seority said:

 That's the problem I have understanding when it comes to breaking items. What's the point of an item breaking if it can be fixed? Nothing will be permanently broken. For those whom advocate for items breaking, it should be for permanent breaks with no fixing, for it to actually be different than what the system is down. Hense, a break&repair system won't satisfy those players.

The point of the item breaking is to reduce it's market value so that they can go on the market for cheap and the people who want items to break can buy those.

The point of them being fixable is the same as the point of re-hunting a copy of the same item. Either way you spend time to get another chance to 10/10 it.

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On 9/8/2021 at 10:12 AM, Selphea said:

The point of the item breaking is to reduce it's market value so that they can go on the market for cheap and the people who want items to break can buy those.

The point of them being fixable is the same as the point of re-hunting a copy of the same item. Either way you spend time to get another chance to 10/10 it.

Agreed that while it may seem that more players would just put junk weapons on the market, This is definitely not always the case
A lot of the time weapons are just NPC'd. If this weren't the case, there would be alot more variety to melee weapons on the market than it is currently even with double clear box rewards.
Trash will remain trash, if the upgrade device only goes to 40% (like official) not many striking users would want it. I suggest boosting it to 50%

If you can't get an item to 50% then it will also become an item that striking users would just not opt for, thats anywhere from a 1~10% difference.
Look at how the price spikes for items that are 49% and 50%, even a 1% difference has a inflated value.
Yes it would add more depth and make 40~50%s, more valuable, but at the same time it would be similar to the grinder situation, there's no possible way to get that existing item to 50%.
I would suggest reducing the % of weapons considerably,  at a minimum a weapon could have should be 10~15%, and never drop above 39% when the new system is introduced.
But also allow more ways to craft items so that they can achieve 50% instead of only having that item drop in a mission and also not have a board for it.

Currently things that are  more expensive items are the prototypes, and 50%s
To melee users, they typically only wanting/needing DA/EE items, 50% weapons dropped off slightly in value, but are still sought after.

Even low ele DA weapons are looked down upon, it has to be 50% or the value is completely lost, So I would highly recommend the upgrade device to allow for elements to go to +50%, to keep prices from further inflating.

 

On 9/7/2021 at 5:57 PM, Marmalade said:

I believe it comes back to weapon depth and the lack thereof. Depth has slowly been stripped away from weapons in Clementine due to what I would say is a major misunderstanding of the problems at hand. Similar to what Gaz mentioned in their stream, there is simply 0/10 and 10/10. There's no longer an in-between and the item will only ever be its best or its worst. I touched on this in my original post, and why it's important to have weapon depth, and why it really needs to be reinstated. People are afraid of it because they think it will be terrible and awful and it will take them 5 months to find one item and 500 grinders to 10/10 it, but that simply isn't the case.

If every weapon dropped at 50%, which is for some reason very slowly creeping up, and every weapon can 10/10 with ease, then you can expect the drop rates to become more difficult and the market price to rocket even more. This has already happened, and it's pretty much the reason we're in the position we are with drops. The elemental floor was raised, and the chance of 45-50%'s was massively increased, so now items have less depth and they drop in pristine condition more often. As a result, drop rates go down, Meseta income goes down, the item becomes even more unpleasant to hunt, and the market price goes into unaffordable territory.

Having 5/5's on the market is good and so is 1/1, especially with the inclusion of The Upgrade Device, because it gives people another option besides 500+ runs. As I've said in a previous post, it's the same as buying junk online, restoring it, and then flipping it for a profit or keeping it. Say you want an old Playstation 1 game, and your choices are Disc Only $10 / With cracked case and no manual $15 / Light scratches, case, manual $50 / Unopened factory sealed $1,000. You could easily piece together a respectable copy for less than $50 or $1,000, if you wanted to put the time in. Now remove those options except the unopened factory copy, and all you've got is work hard for money or hope you come across one somehow. That's Clem.

So, right now if I want something, I can either run the mission as many times as it takes, or I can just not. Alternatively, I could hunt until I find a "bad" one, or I could get a "bad" one off the market, then I could repair it, and hurray. I did it in less time and effort than if I had to hunt for a good one and got nothing while I did it.

There are, or were, multiple roles to play here, and it's different for everyone. Some people like hunting difficult items, some people like grinding weapons all day, some people like synthesizing goods, and some people just like making Meseta. The idea is that people fill their part and have options to obtain what they want through their own means, but right now those options are also removed, and everyone is expected to do the same thing. There is more to PSU than running the same missions 1000 times, but there is also more than just grinding a weapon to 10/10. I don't agree that 10/10'ing a weapon is considered the overall end game, but it is an end point for something and some people. The inclusion of GAS will be another end game goal for players that want to take part.

People will argue that repairing it is pointless and that they might as well not break, but because of what I've explained above, it should be somewhat obvious why there's more to it than just adding an extra step to grinding, and why broken weapons hold value to people. You will (or should) sell your junk 40% 0/3 on the market because someone will buy it and repair it. They make money off your junk, and they can feed that money back to you. Do this enough and you will have enough Meseta to buy a 10/10. Item depth is important to the game and the community, even if people don't think it to be.

Now, this is where I get incredibly confused, and I can only assume people have somewhat misunderstood me in the past. I'm afraid people think I'm trying to make things even more difficult when I'm not. I'm trying to make things better. A lot of people voted that they liked the idea of filling the gap between good and bad items (I.E 10/10 and 0/10), but have then voted against bringing item depth back in some form or another. They are mutually necessary. The more "bad" items that can drop, the higher the drop rate can be, the more Meseta people can gain, and the more option there is on the player market. Options are important, and so is stimulation! Both of which is something that has seemingly been removed from Clementine through a barrage of complaints and a misunderstanding of those complaints.

If weapons aren't going to break through grind failure, then weapons should have the potential to drop with less than 10 max grind potential, because the drop rate will be higher, and you can repair it or sell it for Meseta for... essentially free. I could argue that this is better than getting nothing at all. If grind fails break weapons again, then they can continue to drop at 0/10 no problem, but pushing all of the item depth into elemental percent alone isn't fair, especially for striking.

No, not particularly. Someone will always hate something about it, and not just grinding in particular, but people hate things for different reasons. I see why people like weapons breaking and all that, and I can see why people would rather just be handed a 10/10 after 2 runs. Really, it all comes down to options and stimulation, which are being removed rather than added. I'm not against the idea of weapon repairs, because I know that it can be made in a way that isn't a tedious and time-wasting mechanic, but I'm afraid people think it will be what it is now, but with the added bonus of a 2 minute run to the 5th floor between grinds. Just... no. Getting your weapon to 10/10 will be less time consuming than it is now, and will cost you less resources, with the added bonus of there being more options to obtain that weapon, for everyone else.

Well the drop rates would increase! Which is something everyone likes to hear, I'm sure. Grinding to 2/10 isn't entirely the same as 2/2, because the potential has value as well, even with the ability to repair it. Either in the form of it CAN go to 10/10 or it may cost less to repair in order to 10/10. The value of an irreparable 2/2 is beyond me though, but humans also have a fascinating relationship with numbers.

After reading all this, the impression I got was, by making striking weapons and armors have specifically higher %,  it resulted in ALL Items having low drop rate, meseta amounts being lower, ect.
But this doesn't account for tech users, or range users who's items drops were also made to drop infrequently aswell. Or why enemies hardly ever drop any weapon at all. the boards themselves shouldn't also be this rare when you have to make them. I think I was the one who brought up the fact that having items drop at an excessively low rate but the % is completely random as melee was kind of an issue back in an old CBT, If I had knew drops would only become even more infrequent then I would have never suggested something like that. I don't think item's losing the max grind on their initial drop would be nice, It would be better to just have the player find the item for the first time, then attempt to grind it, before given the chance to repair it.

It just seems like: 
by devaluing elemental % items and ALSO reducing their maximum potential, we can have a normalized drop rate.
But on top of this, also resetting the grind system to it's original state.
Because a new system of GC will be introduced to handle it, along with the upgrade device.

My only issue is that it doesn't explain why certain items were so rare when they don't have an elemental % or can be grinded, or why the value of so many items were made so cheap that it overall devalued an item's retail price? I guess the response to this would that we need more sinks to help with the economy, but I guess if drops are more frequent then  I would have more items to sell, unless their values are made even cheaper. 
Enemies still  don't exactly drop much meseta even on S2, official, it was easily thousands, and 10s of thousands, but here its barely anything over 200~800, and that would've helped with costs of consumables before hand, but hopefully the increase drop rates will also see an increase to enemy drop rates too, cause those are even more scarce then clear box rewards, and more rewards are tied to clears rather than some enemies, which would've added more variety to missions overall.

=========================================================================================================================================


While the idea that having specialized grinders drop may seem like a good idea, I would personally keep it away from further increasing weapon damage from it's intended values, increased PP/Range/Accuracy would be a better choice. instead of it being 10/15, lets keep it to 10/11 but you can select one trait of the following:
Let's say there's two options, the damage-type option(name changer), and the QoL option(PP/Range/Accuracy.)(shows as 10/11 or 11/11)
As for existing DA/EE weapons, I would suggest keeping the system an option, the only change would be the items name like currently, but you have to get a specialized grinder from either farming for it that would allow you to select the weapon to become either a DA, EE or SE weapon(i would love a SE boost on melee weapons too.) Like an DA/EE/SE-EX👀 grinder.

Edited by Lupophobia
Typo's, Sentence fragmentation.
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Y'know... with all that's being discussed I also gotta ask:

Are there any plans to raise the max amount of PAs we can have at a time? Is that even possible? I mean I don't even remember a detail like what the cap was on official, plus I don't know if even something like this would be hard coded or not (I'm sure dumber things in games have been hard coded).

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16 hours ago, ScarletMel said:

Y'know... with all that's being discussed I also gotta ask:

Are there any plans to raise the max amount of PAs we can have at a time? Is that even possible? I mean I don't even remember a detail like what the cap was on official, plus I don't know if even something like this would be hard coded or not (I'm sure dumber things in games have been hard coded).

this and just overall inventory management, like 100 instead of 60, since so many people are carrying around multiple armors, SE resists ect.

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Also @Marmalade while these changes sound nice, I would like to point out one other thing, The voting for something, but arguing against that same thing players voted for. 
It's really good to see both sides of an argument,  So i tend to play more of a chaotic role when discussing subjects. Its usually to dissect an issue and see all viewpoints of that topic to show it's pro's and it's con's.

I would enjoy a simpler game, But at the same time I'm perfectly fine with the way the game is, at the same time. Both have their issues, and nothing will ever be perfect, it's usually better to follow things in steps rather than trying to pop every balloon with a needle. 

Take your time, and don't feel too pressured on anything, The games population fluctuates on down time, But in all honesty, The average seems to always be above 100 players, The hardcore fanbase won't exactly just leave unless there's really nothing else to do, and that's okay, games grow old.

While saying that, I would also like to say, lean away from making the best items of that tier tradeable. Not everything in psu was tradeable, There should definitely be more independent progression that isn't entirely locked to rng. The way PSU handled these sorts of things was by trades, and some aspects of those trades had some randomness to them, but it's really important that not every item should be solely handled by meseta, or just rng drops.
There should be a reward for hard effort. And I do believe there's a place for higher difficulty missions, Maybe even more difficult then IC (at it's original scaling), I welcome it.

But also don't lean to heavily into changes that would force a meta, or a specific playstyle.

Edited by Lupophobia
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On 9/9/2021 at 12:32 AM, ScarletMel said:

Y'know... with all that's being discussed I also gotta ask:

Are there any plans to raise the max amount of PAs we can have at a time? Is that even possible? I mean I don't even remember a detail like what the cap was on official, plus I don't know if even something like this would be hard coded or not (I'm sure dumber things in games have been hard coded).

 

20 hours ago, Lupophobia said:

this and just overall inventory management, like 100 instead of 60, since so many people are carrying around multiple armors, SE resists ect.

Short answer is no. Not 100% sure of the details, but how I understand it, it's impossible to program. The game breaks if goes beyond these set of arbitrary numbers.

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23 minutes ago, Seority said:

 

Short answer is no. Not 100% sure of the details, but how I understand it, it's impossible to program. The game breaks if goes beyond these set of arbitrary numbers.

Yeah, I figured this would be the response, the way psu was handled is kind of a mess, At least we can store things away from the item shop so its not too big of an issue, 
I'd expect it would be possible if it was like completely overhauled, but then we'd run into the issue of trying to get items to sync all over again and that would be a big hassle, if it isn't broken, don't fix it I guess.

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Coming back to this as the weeklies and dailies were brought up on Discord, so...

On 8/17/2021 at 7:24 AM, Marmalade said:

Guardians Quest System

I mean, this one is fairly straightforward. I know that they got cut down significantly already, but I still think I’d like to see them become based around the idea that you just get rewarded for playing. At least Daily Quests.

If it’s a daily chore, then I think it should stay within the bounds of, say, Clear 5 missions, Break 50 Boxes, Kill 100 Enemies. Just simple shit that you do without having to go out of your way to accomplish.

Weekly quests, I don’t particularly have a big issue with them being something specific. Go and kill De Ragan, Go and kill whatever enemy. But I also think that Weekly quests should steer clear of being a chore. I’d mentioned this in another post a while back, but Weekly quests shouldn’t be a week long chore, it should be something you finish and then you get the rest of the week off.

Like cleaning your house, you don’t do it all day every day, you just do it once or twice a week and then it’s done and you feel good.

Personally, I think the quests should be a welfare mechanic for players without much time to avoid falling too far behind.

If I want 20,000 meseta, I can run most S2 missions with a boss at the end, get a bunch of drops, sell them off and make more than 20k in a single run. But if someone on C or without good gear wants 20k, they probably have a tougher time.

If I want 24 PA Fragments, I can run 12 De Ragans and get that in about 2 hours. But if someone can't clear S boss quests quickly then it won't be as easy.

To me that should be the baseline. A daily or weekly shouldn't be slower than regular mission runs. Of course it's possible to stack both missions and daily/weekly so that it's a BOGO, but that's only once a day or week. Chances are I'll still want to run more than 1 mission a day or 12 a week because I want something besides meseta and PA frags.

I also feel Grinding could be part of the daily quests. That would ease up on Grinder Base S shortage as well as sink some meseta. Something like "Craft an S Grinder to get 3 Grinder Base S daily". So that encourages sinking 50k meseta every 5 days and helps ease up the rarity of Grinder Base S.

Edited by Selphea
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Here's an interesting GDC talk regarding Diablo 3 (Diablo 1 being arguably the biggest influence on PSO's design).

 


FWIW as someone who would gladly play 5-10 hours a week, I haven't played in months because I get absolute jack shit for the the time put in. Not being capped means I can't play with anybody, and soloing to cap is about as far away from fun as I could imagine. PSU's design relies on there being a relatively high, active player base—something that Clem does not and likely will never have (not a knock to the team, it's just a very niche game). While the current, almost forced meta of how to play the game is enjoyable—or at least tolerable—to some players, it's just as or more likely to drive people away from the game. Thus, I'm all for any changes. 

I'm also all for events/updates being communicated further ahead of time, but that's a different discussion.

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On 9/20/2021 at 10:41 AM, Maverick said:

FWIW as someone who would gladly play 5-10 hours a week, I haven't played in months because I get absolute jack shit for the the time put in. Not being capped means I can't play with anybody, and soloing to cap is about as far away from fun as I could imagine. PSU's design relies on there being a relatively high, active player base—something that Clem does not and likely will never have (not a knock to the team, it's just a very niche game). While the current, almost forced meta of how to play the game is enjoyable—or at least tolerable—to some players, it's just as or more likely to drive people away from the game. Thus, I'm all for any changes. 

Watched the vid, but I'll respond to your post first.

With each update the game does change, so I would suggest logging in from time to time to see if those changes fix some of the issues you have with the game. If you aren't capped, then the exp boost we've had for the past month along with the new missions have helped many new players/characters find groups and level up quickly. As far as "get(ting) jack shit," I'm unsure what you mean, but if you're also not capped, the stuff you're looking for probably wasn't obtainable anyway.
Most jank stuff can be bought on the player shops for extremely cheap, and if you're low on meseta, then that's a problem I can totally understand. Feel free to reach out on the Discord if you need a hand. You may find that some people are happy to help you.
One may argue that almost all mmos are structured around large player bases and yes PSU is no different. It's the challenge that every private server takes on. I'm curious as to what "forced meta" you are implying. Care to indulge about that?

---------------------------------~~----------------------------------

As for the video, the speaker made many interesting points.

The balancing of 'reasons to play the game' vs 'rewards for playing them game' was nice to hear about. They couldn't go only off raid drops since that means people may never get what they want. The opposite was also bad because the game became more a job where if you clock in enough hours, then you'll get what's desired. Having a mix of raid drops but also guaranteed trade in items to get gear seems to be the perfect scenario.

I enjoy that they started to give certain items purpose rather than just treating everything like a board to stick stats to. "An item that gives a buff when picking up gold," sounds fun! Noting when he specified that items that change the way a player plays were the most interesting. Making every item useful, or at the very least interesting is something PSU definitely needs. 

The closing statements to the final two points are eye-opening. 
"It's better for players to feel awesome than for everything to be balanced."
"It's better to solve the problem of players having everything they want than of them not having what they want."

Those sentences pretty much sum up the whole point of this colossal thread. Glad to see that most of us are open for change, we just need to be patient now and wait for changes to come.

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  • 2 weeks later...
37 minutes ago, gotanks0407 said:

I would rather you not lose max grind potential. It be more like PSO2 armor grinding like you said. maybe lose a few grind levels or something. losing a max grind potential ruins the weapon.

You already lose grind level when one grind fails. Also, Marm explained above or the previous page why it has to be "necessary". Still a debate tho, but I think, with the upgrade device thing, his argument is good

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6 minutes ago, Aelphasy said:

You already lose grind level when one grind fails. Also, Marm explained above or the previous page why it has to be "necessary". Still a debate tho, but I think, with the upgrade device thing, his argument is good

i failed a frind yesterday and it was reset to 0 but it was still a 0/10 potential on it. 

the GC Upgrade Device was mostly just a way for SEGA to get people to pay more money. But I have not read Marm's response on the last page and I will go read it.

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