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A really, really crazy discussion about all of the things.


Marmalade
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What are your overall feelings toward the changes detailed in this post?  

154 members have voted

  1. 1. How do you feel about the Character Progression detailed in this post?

    • I like raising the Level Cap by a full difficulty tier instead of 4~5 levels every update.
      115
    • I like the experience bonus to new characters.
      127
    • I like the removal of enemy tagging requirement.
      126
    • I like the MP requirement for basic types being reduced.
      120
    • I like the MP payout being increased by 50%.
      131
    • I like that Dying no longer reduced clear rank.
      102
    • I like that Limit Break hitboxes are enabled for all levels.
      94
    • I like that all of the clothing is in the clothing store, instead of Exchange MIssions.
      114
    • I like the increase to Rare Enemies and Rare Mission probabilities.
      129
    • I like the removal of the Lobby Restrictions for new players.
      120
    • I like the idea of relaxing Mission Level Requirements.
      83
    • I like that Attack Accuracy affects variance instead of hitting 0.
      113
    • I like the ideas for the Meseta Sink.
      91
    • I like the idea of relaxing Guardians Daily and Weekly Quests.
      121
    • No Comment
      6
  2. 2. How do you feel about the Prototype and Grinding suggestions?

    • I like the idea of using The Upgrade Device for weapon repairs.
      86
    • I like the idea of lowering the chance of Max Grind reduction when failing a Grind.
      81
    • I like the idea of Prototypes having Max Grind Potential of 15 instead of the current system.
      93
    • I like the idea of Attribute Grinders to customize my weapon how I want.
      106
    • No Comment
      25
  3. 3. How do you feel about the approach to Drops in this post?

    • I like the idea of filling the gap between good and bad items.
      114
    • I like the idea of Weapons dropping with lower Max Grind Potential to bolster drops and keep The Upgrade Device relevant.
      71
    • I like the idea of Weapons and Shields dropping with lower Element %, again to bolster drops and increase the chance of items dropping.
      87
    • I like the idea of having an Item Sink in exchange for an alternative currency to use in guaranteed rewards.
      117
    • I like the idea of all Synthesis items having the ability to drop in missions.
      110
    • No Comment
      15


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Well I tried to submit my vote... but it seems to be stuck, not sure if that will go through or not.  (I just went through while posting this.)

I have read the OP all the way through and a couple of the responses, and my overall impression is positive and seems like Clementine is moving in a good direction.

Some thoughts about certain voting points:

Removal of Enemy Tagging:  I understand that this is to help players lvl up faster, but something about this I just don't like.  If someone can just sit in B1 and get all the EXP for the entire block then it might need to be adjusted.

Dying no longer reduces clear rank:  I fear for this one, as it might cause some players trolls to intentionally play poorly in runs.  You can always leave the run, but this server at normal times typically isn't large enough to have multiple parties running the same run.  Even White Beast S2 or Robotanical Gardens S2 currently when I see them typically only have one open run going.  This will of course change during event runs, with plenty to pick from.

Increase MP Payout | Increase Rare Enemies and Rare Mission Rates:  I am all for this.  Since I have come to Clementine all I have ever done is solo and I have only gotten one Rare Mission this entire time and that Rare Mission came after I got the 500+ Solo Missions title or achievement (that is while mostly playing with 2 or 3 star fortune). The rate seems low compared to PC/PS2 and JP PSU rates having played on both of those servers for thousands of hours in the past.  I would also vote to have classes capped at lvl 20 as the "rewards" for 21+ just don't seem worth it at all for the time investment, its just showing off a number instead.

New Ideas about Grinding and The Upgrade Device:  First thing is first difficulty is overcome with skill, and RNG is overcome with persistence and eventually luck.  Grinding has nothing to do with difficulty as no one can be skilled at Grinding.  Insanely lucky:  yes  Skilled:  no.

Now with 100% less irl money spent The Upgrade Device seems like a really good thing to implement along with weapons having a chance to go down a max grind level.  You could even use The Upgrade Device as an alternative meseta sink if ideas are limited.  Prototype Weapons going to 15 max grinds instead of 10 max grinds is much better IMO than the current system as well.  What I like best about the grinding idea is that if you break a weapon that you would loose 1 - 3 current grinds (of course with the possibility of the max grind level going down), so if you broke a 7/10 weapon going to 8/10 the worst outcome would be 4/9.  That saves a lot of time grinding which I appreciate.  Grinding is a topic that is is impossible to please everyone with... you can only aim to please most people.

Lowering the Max Grind Potential of drops to help bolster The Upgrade Device:  This is bad.  With The Upgrade Device active it should and will always be relevant to everyone that has a want or a need for good/better gear without the need to make 0/5-0/9 weapons drop.  That is just punishing and a time a sink as the weapon will have to be 5/5 before you can get it to 5/6 in The Upgrade Device, and then 6/6 before it can get to 6/7, etc. (provided it works the same way as it did in JP PSU).

Item Sink:  I like this idea as currently I just find myself NPCing all sorts of items due to their value in the market not being worth trying to sell it for 1-5k extra meseta.

Also think about the particular Missions not giving PA Frag rewards, and potentially adding in title rewards if you cleared Robotanical Gardens S or S2 with an S Rank a certain number of times it could give you some PA Frags.  Not sure if that could be done or not.

As stated above my overall impression is very positive, and most of this seems like Clementine will be advancing in a positive direction.  Thank you to Marm and everyone behind the scenes making this possible. 

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Is there any particular reason that we can't have a mission counter where every active party in the game can be joined?

I think we need a first launch tutorial, per account. Give it options for "Teach me about PSU" - "Teach me about Clementine" - "I'll figure it out on my own" - right at the beginning, before it even loads you into the spaceport.

At a certain point, you need to keep a certain amount of grind(as in work, not weapon upgrades) in the game, or it won't be PSU. Everybody thinks they hate grind. If you just pull grind from the game though, it becomes a bad chat server with minigame.  In truth, a grind game is about the journey. Most of us who played PSU on official no longer have lives that provide that kind of free time anymore though. It's a difficult hurdle for any game developer to solve. It kills most successful MMORPGs.

 

The rest of this is about Meseta and the Economy.

 

I think a lot of the endgame itemization concerns could be adressed with meseta sinks. In the endgame, Meseta is so underutilized, it boggles the mind. What if you could repair a weapon..... with meseta??? Iit doesn't have to be cheap. An S rank repair could be worth something along the lines of what a max level player could farm in a day.

what if... flights to lobbies were more expensive?

What if special flights... weren't free?

what if you could buy improvements to a weapon or armors elemental modifier?

what if you could buy any material from an NPC, but the price was a 40% markup from the average player sale price (some system here to prevent exploitation)

what if you could buy attempts at rare missions.

What if you could buy all the clothes in the game from one counter, but the clothes bought from that counter decayed after 24 hours of playtime.

What if photon arts could be traded between players

what if you implement GAS, but with added meseta costs?

what if you could buy levels or boosters for your character level or a types level, or a PAs Level?

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huh if everything is about mesetas then it will turn the game into a race for money rather than loot, which is not the solution. But that said, with that new loot system coming AND the new "currency" (GC), meseta will slowly (very slowly ofc) join the graveyard along PA frags or megispher resources earned for nothing ("but why ?? :(" cuz when you grinded what you wanted + bought that 3 stacks op weapon after that hard bid wars that caused endless drama on psu gen, well no more real use for them).

this is the reason for my idea above and which looks like one of yours : put some really usefull stuff at NPC (made grinders, like +1 and +4, material...) also why not these infinity grinders, but like 10gb idk (also grinder repair could be ok, but with a serious price, not 20m or something, more like 3m for exemple, so "everyone" can afford and you can be sure it will sell, no point to sell them absurd price like PA frag for 100k since no one will buy) also maybe some ticket boost for GC point, since you told me Marm it wasnt easy to just "use meseta to do x" then bypass maybe like that idk.

OR remove payout. Why not after all ? Make Meseta only coming from drop, and npc

I think there is more solutions than problems tbh.

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On 8/17/2021 at 12:24 AM, Marmalade said:
  • Another mild attempt at Partner NPC's
    • I hate them, but y'know. If I can get them working at least for solo then it would be helpful, no doubt.

 

It would be nice to have them back. I'm unclear if re-implementing them, is as simple as flipping a 1 bit (flag) switch, somewhere, or if their interactions with the other stuff on the server, such as monsters on the field, other players and things. Needs extensive server software, to handle all of it.

Given that offline (when it use to EASILY work, a very long while ago), could include NCP's, that would seem to imply that the client software already has the functionality already built into it (unless it was taken out, to make the online client).

But (as I already stated), maybe there are additional things the server would need to do, in order to keep everything aligned/synchronized/happy, as these NCP's can interact with many things (enemies, other players, and maybe even accidentally break open boxes sometimes).

 

In reality, many players (in the old days), considered them as semi-useless cannon folder. But even cannon folder has its uses.

One word of advise. If testing, involves waiting around a month, for the NCP to actually successfully hit a single monster, and the NCP regularly chooses the most inappropriate weapons, almost all the time, and never seems to actually hit anything. You lot have probably got the software/NCPs working 100% authentically, absolutely bang on. (Joke, but I think the reality, wasn't very far off from what I have just said, in this paragraph).

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12 minutes ago, Adooma said:

In reality, many players (in the old days), considered them as semi-useless cannon folder. But even cannon folder has its uses.

At the very least they'd help people level support TECHNICs.

I've seen at least one player refuse to do buff parties, and end up running around at level cap with seriously underleveled support TECHNICs because of it.

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1 minute ago, Zeta said:

At the very least they'd help people level support TECHNICs.

I've seen at least one player refuse to do buff parties, and end up running around at level cap with seriously underleveled support TECHNICs because of it.

I wondered about that use (buff leveling), a period of time before making that post, and forgot to mention that.

 

The NPCs (in the original old game), were also a sort of payment (BLACKMAIL), to at least attempt some of the story missions (which I believe some people detested), as it was the only way of getting a wider range of NCPs available to a player. The later story mission awarded NCPs, gradually got stronger (better and better).

Although I sort of partially liked doing the story missions at the time, I still remember the absolute *** NIGHTMARE ***, of all those millions and millions of talk bubbles, which one had to click each one, to get rid of it and move on (there may have been another way). To say those talk bubbles were hideously tedious would be an understatement.

What really made my blood boil, was when the speech bubble/NPC said "...". I still don't really know what that is suppose to mean.

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I have a suggestion for the grind system if they were to go to +15
Let's say every weapon has the potential to grind to +15.
1~4 would be gaurenteed.
+5 would approx 80% and gradually decreasing up to approx -10% per grind up to +10 This sounds easy right? but maybe change the type of grinder used, or number of grinders used instead of the standard +1~10. The rates would be the same over all and no more gambling for +9s and 10s.
there would be no failure going to  in terms of losing maximum/minimum grind chance, the only issue would be time wasted.
This system would exchange both grinders as materials and meseta as a base,  anywhere ranging from 100k~200k  at low starting levels up to 600~900k depending on rarity.


however,  11~15 would be different, mainly because this should be everyone's focus/true endgoal, but it's also an optional feature, No one needs a prototype weapon in the first place.
10=>12 would drop max grind back to 0, and your max prototype level is reduced between 1~3.
Repairing this would be costly, approx a mil for even A ranks and perhaps up to 5mil for S ranks. You wanted a special weapon with unique traits right?
(because this is a bonus effect, not the weapons main focus.) also the rates for 10=11 and 11=>12 would be lower than +10, assuming +10 is 30%. your almost guarenteed to fail it, but you can repair it.  11~12 weapons would probably end up being the common endgame prototype levels.
13~15 is a different story, 13~15 your item is gone. No repair, End of discussion, You put your risk into it, you pay the price, your hard work is gone. Risk and reward.
This would also use specialized grinders for 11~15, not commonly found, but not incredibly rare either. Maybe make the stats you gain from prototype randomized. it would stop players from only choosing one stat for the "best item" and if that person just so happened to get the lucky 5 attack ups for that weapon.. then that's true gold. because hitting +13~15 shouldnt even be normally possible, it'd would add heavy value to a weapon.

This way having a 10/10 would be more of a standardization, as some weapons really do need to hit 10/10 to even be considered "useful" while also introducing a meseta sink.

hitting +10 wouldn't cost too much and items that are +10 would now end up having more value to them, because money was put into it. value should be adjusted based on *rating and if a weapons rarity doesn't fit its actual * value, then that weapon needs to be adjusted. The rarity system in PSU is already appauling to look at and doesn't make much sense. this would address the grinding issue, the weird rarity system, but not exactly the drop system if they were to have randomize maximum grind as i'm not sure thats the right choice, devaluing useless items would only make them more useless. this would mean item rebalancing. only the best A's deserve 9* rating, while the best 12* should be very decent for a 12*, Being the ultimate middle ground, for S ranks, and 15* for only the best items.

Edited by Lupophobia
adjustments upon this idea.
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I fear that a lot of what I'm trying to get across is still being misunderstood, partly because some of these counter arguments aren't lining up with the idea in my head lol. But I think that's largely because of what's been going back and forth on these recent posts, so it's difficult to know where I stand. I'll try and catch up...

On 8/21/2021 at 4:24 AM, ScarletMel said:

Well I'll give you one less flat "no" answer and actually try to relate why I feel it shouldn't be done.

 

The short version: It adds a process that doesn't need to be there in the first place.

 

The idea in itself reeks of trying to validate a feature in a NPC we don't necessarily need. In fact I think we don't need it at all, because weapons breaking is also an extension of the weapon upgrading process that doesn't need to be there. You get the weapon you're after, but oh hey it's at 0/8. Now you have to spend resources (whether you grind it up normally or use the upgrade machine) to get it to 8/8. Now you have to repair it. Now you grind it again... except it fails and breaks. Oops! Now instead of being 9/9 we're back down to x/8. See where this can go? Even if you make the odds small there are people that are just that unlucky. Your ideas here are inflating an already lengthy, costly, and tedious process by adding more steps to said process, but at the same time you say you want to make things better. The 0/8 drop idea and weapon breakage go against you saying you want things to be better. So... which do you want to do? Actually make things better by trimming the fat from a dated, horrible upgrade system, or inflate it and add more tedium?

 

I mean I get that the 0/8 drop idea is tied to another problem... but that's just "solving" (I say that in quotes because I don't know if it actually well solve a problem) one problem while creating another problem elsewhere.

 

Now the idea of being able to turn a weapon into a prototype with GC? That's an ace idea. It gives those who aren't lucky like that a way to get in on it, too. I support that ideal wholeheartedly.

I'd forgotten about the repairs only being available with the item is max grind, I've been working around the assumption that it can just be used even if the item was 0/8. I'm somewhat hoping it can be, or I can force it to, otherwise I can see the general concerns. I can also agree that your weapon progress going backwards is pretty much pointless, especially with the introduction of The Upgrade Device. Since it has the ability to Grind without fail, it makes regular Grinding somewhat obsolete especially if they have the potential to reverse your efforts. That much I can agree with.

Just so we're working on the same page, I want to be clear that I'm now currently working on the assumption that

  1. Weapons can be repaired at The Upgrade Device regardless of their current grind.
  2. Your weapon progress wouldn't reverse.

When it comes to The Upgrade Device, there's more to it than its relevancy, and it somewhat goes beyond Grinding as well, unfortunately. I might be missing something obvious, so feel free to point out anything else I might miss, but as it currently stands I believe Striking weapons are the only ones with considerable depth, in the form of Elements and Element Percent. This is already something that's slowly being put to rest, where I fear eventually all that we'll see is 45-50% drops, due to how rare and how much effort it takes to get a respectable palette. This also unfortunately affects Line Shields.

Item Depth is something that exists in most of the Phantasy Stars, but for some reason we're slowly chiseling it out of PSU. Players are afraid of efforts that aren't inherently running the same mission over and over. I would ask why players are seemingly ok with the idea of lower Element Percentages, but not lower Max Grind Potential? Considering Grind Potential affects everyone evenly, and Element Percentages affect Striking worse. When neither are going backwards, it really does seem like things are becoming a very bland and straight line, where nothing can have a flaw.

Ignoring Prototypes and hidden effects, right now Striking weapons have an depth of 27--6 Elements, an elemental range of 20 (30-50%) for each, and 1 Neutral.
Line shields have a depth of 26. Again, 6 Elements, and an Elemental range of 20.
Ranged and Tech weapons have a depth of quite literally 0, with the exception of RCSM's. They will always drop in a consistent state. They will always be Neutral 0/10.

This means that drop rates on anything with Elements and Percentages need to be higher, plus the added RNG layer of it being the Element and Percent that you want, which in turn makes anything without an Element, well, rarer. Once these items stop being BiS, or generally less sought after, then they should become somewhat more common.

If we were to remove Elemental Percentages then Line Shields would get a depth of 6, Striking gets a depth of 7, and Tech and Ranged get a depth of still 0. If this were the case then you could expect to be doing an even more unhealthy amount of runs to obtain such items, which is beyond acceptable. In the original game, all of these items had depth, albeit through the grinding system most people tend to hate.

If we were to lower the Elemental Floor and Ceiling to create depth in exchange for healthier drop rates, then this only affects Striking and Line Shields still. If this were the case, then Melee players would have to spend even more resources than anyone else. They already have to work harder to get a respectable palette, now they have to spend more than anyone else in order to polish their weapon, if they decide to.

The only way GC is going to be at all useful for Techers and Gunners is if they work on their shields, or they play the market on Striking weapons which most likely will be NPC'd. If they don't, then they just sit on a mountain of GC with nothing to spend it on, which means GC may as well be Meseta, but that's also another thing being argued against...? It can't always be Give Give Give. The phrase "Give and Take" exists for a reason.

 

So going into my current point, and hopefully I can clear up some confusion...
I'm slightly worried that people think I'm trying to slap this whole thing on top of an already difficult system, which isn't at all the case. Grinding isn't going to remain the 300+ Grinder, 5 hour macro session that it is. It also isn't initially going to return to the old breaking system, since The Upgrade Device effectively makes it obsolete, at least to 8/10. I genuinely have no intention of making people run back and forth between NPC's in an attempt to 10/10 their weapon. As I've previously stated, I'm a fan of PSO's grinding system, and I was never a huge fan of weapon breaking in the first place, and that's just my opinion. The intention is that you only ever have to visit The Upgrade Device once for any weapon you intend to work on.

However... as it currently stands, there are two prominent issues that can be smoothed over by incorporating The Upgrade Device along with lower Max Grind potential, without particularly punishing anyone because it's not going to add on to the existing struggle. In fact it's going to relax the struggle considerably.

Right now in order to obtain an item you want, you realistically have two choices.

  1. Run the same mission a mind numbing amount of times and hope it drops, and especially in an Element and Element Percent you want, if Striking or Line Shield.

    Chances are you will be completely burned out or fed up by the time it drops, or worse, you may never see it due to bad luck. You will see people with multiple 50%'s of the item you want, for less time, and you may wonder why you bothered spending so much of your time in the first place. Then what? Give up? Quit playing? There's not much else to do. Your options are very limited.
     
  2. Be rich enough and hope someone is selling what you want on the market, and fight with the idea of dropping most of your wealth.

    We all know how you become rich in Clementine. Either play the market and hope it pays off, or try to hunt for an item that other people want and hope it drops and then sells, potentially multiple times.
     

Regardless of what you do, you're spending resources. A lot, actually. You can expect to do between 300-500, even 1000+ runs just to see some of the item you want, which is a considerable amount of the most valuable resource you'll ever have, that being time. Otherwise, you're spending Meseta, which was also your time, and in ways is no different to spending GC, since these are both interchangeable. No matter what you do, you're always spending resources, and that's just the nature of the game and life in general lol.

What I'm proposing with items dropping with lower Max Grind potential occasionally, instead of lower Elemental Percent floor, isn't forcing you into a play style. It doesn't mean that you will always have to spend resources to repair every item you find. You will find that 50% 0/10 via hunting if you really want to, ideally no more harder than it is now. No one is taking that away.

If you find a weapon with lower Max Grind Potential and you don't want it, you now have 3 additional options that are only beneficial to you.

  1. Exchange it for GC.
  2. Sell it on the market for Meseta.
  3. Repair it in 2 minutes and save yourself another 200-300 runs of a mission you're already fed up of.

Either way you're gaining something and spending less than you are currently, even more considering that you're also gaining GC just by hunting for the item, so you're not going to be going backwards very much at all. What's being added is a 3rd option, not a replacement of an option. It's a much needed ceiling for your time and effort. I don't see weapons dropping with lower Grind Potential as going backwards either, it's simple a potential starting point for you or for someone else, and it encourages circulation and market health. You don't have to use The Upgrade Device at all, if you don't want to.

You will still find the item you want by hunting as you do now, that isn't being made any harder for you or anyone else. In fact, the drop rate is being relaxed so you find things a little easier. Simply all this does is add a 3rd option while simultaneously rewarding players for their effort and time spent, and I don't see that as being a bad thing? At least it certainly isn't any worse than what we have now, where you get next to nothing for hours of your time.

On top of all of this, if I'm a relatively new player and say all I have is 2 or 3 mil, I can buy up one of these lower grind weapons by my own will, repair it, and then either use it or sell it off for a profit return. It helps me catch up to a constantly inflating economy and power scale.

I don't want to make things harder. I don't want to make all drops worse. I don't want to make progress reversible, there is no going backwards. I simply want to add options for players to obtain their items and catch up to the current level.

It's either

  1. Do 500+ runs for your item, that you're going to do anyway
    OR
  2. Find/Buy, Repair, and be done with it in less time and resources.

It IS NOT: do 500+ runs, find your item, repair it, grind it, repair it, grind it, repair it. That's just simply not happening.

Imagine Minecraft, but instead of being able to craft your Diamond items, you can only find them at 10% of their original rate, and hope their durability isn't completely done. That's PSU, right now. Now imagine Minecraft, but you can find Diamond items that you can repair, or you can get a pristine version if you choose to spend the resources.

I mean, either get rich and buy a new car for full price, or buy it secondhand and do work on it over time. Right now, your only option is to get rich and buy a new car.

With Item Depth, it means people who can't swing quite so high can still have a chance to pick low hanging fruits. It is an alternative to obtain the items they want. Otherwise, they're expected to do the same 500+ runs, while everyone else is going off ahead in a different location. No one is going to wait for them, and there are only a handful that have the resources and would consider helping them up to the current equipment level. GC is for everyone, new and old. It becomes the effort to reward currency. Without it, PSU has one very bland, time-sucking mechanic, that is pure RNG.

At least with GC, we can give players options to buy, repair, or even exchange for items that help them. 

 

23 hours ago, Selphea said:

Attribute Grinders working that way sounds exploitable! What happens if I take a low ATP weapon like a machinegun and cram 10 ATP Grinders in, then use +1s to fail and go for another 10 more? It seems difficult to get right. Maybe if it's one and only one customization, and new grinders always overwrite the previous customization...

To me running a mission is similar to doing a 10-pull on a gacha banner. You pop 10 boxes open and hope for an SR. Sure there's the featured banner rare but for one, at least some of the remaining 99%+++ of drops needs to not suck. For another, a pity mechanic would at least help to show you're progressing towards something. Even if it's a lazily done "you get a Neudaiz token for clearing S2 and you can exchange 500 tokens to get Ouryu".

Nooo no no no. Once Attribute Grinders are attached, they're permanent. If you put 5 Attribute Grinders onto a weapon and you fail a regular grind, it won't revert the current grind at all.

As for the "99% of drops need to not suck" and "pity mechanic", see above for Item Depth and GC. I would refrain from adding too many alternate currencies like tickets, because eventually it becomes really overwhelming. Similar to how a bunch of worthless mats drop in C rank, you don't really know what to keep and what to sell.

 

16 hours ago, ScarletMel said:

I refrained from voting for that because I (obviously) don't agree with it. Also to point out the glaring problem with such an option... all the elemental features on the Upgrade Device will make it, and keep it, extremely relevant no matter what. I don't understand why they need to mess with weapon drops to do that.

Explained this above, but the Element features only become relevant for items that use Elements, which means no Firearms, no Rods, no TCSM's, and no Wands. That's pretty much half of all the item types.

 

15 hours ago, Selphea said:

▶ I like the idea of filling the gap between good and bad items.

No because it revolves around the idea of a single best in slot with an illusion of customization that’s will inevitably end up being “crank it’s DPS up as high as possible”. When a less rare item is designed to be different, like having less ATP but more ATA or EVP or a silly SE like Virus or even a troll stat like MST then there’s a reason to use it and they might be BiS for a different build. Use creativity instead of luck, make lemonade if you get lemons and so on. But if everyone has to use the same thing then I would never stray from the max DPS route.

This one has confused me, but it might be because I've worded this incredibly poorly. By filling the gap between good and bad items, I'm specifically talking about Item Depth. Not, say, making B ranks as good as S ranks, or making obsolete gear as good as BiS. Have I misunderstood you o_O?

Essentially it's suggesting that items should drop at lower percentages instead of weighting toward 45-50% pretty much always, which means worse drop rates because the item is "good". When all the items become nothing but good, then Prototypes become the good, and the 50%'s become the bad. Then we push toward guaranteed Prototypes, which is already happening...

Eventually, everything will be 1 thing and nothing else, and they will either be ridiculously hard to find, or ridiculously cheap to buy.

 

10 hours ago, MarSprite said:

Is there any particular reason that we can't have a mission counter where every active party in the game can be joined?

Because of how PSU works, it's not possible because missions rely heavily on the counter they're designed to be in. If we had a counter that held every party that's currently active then you would be able to join it, but you wouldn't be able to join the mission because the counter isn't the correct one for the mission.

Solving this is another issue, and it tends to mean modifying or changing the mission on the fly.

 

8 hours ago, Aelphasy said:

huh if everything is about mesetas then it will turn the game into a race for money rather than loot, which is not the solution. But that said, with that new loot system coming AND the new "currency" (GC), meseta will slowly (very slowly ofc) join the graveyard along PA frags or megispher resources earned for nothing ("but why ?? :(" cuz when you grinded what you wanted + bought that 3 stacks op weapon after that hard bid wars that caused endless drama on psu gen, well no more real use for them).

this is the reason for my idea above and which looks like one of yours : put some really usefull stuff at NPC (made grinders, like +1 and +4, material...) also why not these infinity grinders, but like 10gb idk (also grinder repair could be ok, but with a serious price, not 20m or something, more like 3m for exemple, so "everyone" can afford and you can be sure it will sell, no point to sell them absurd price like PA frag for 100k since no one will buy) also maybe some ticket boost for GC point, since you told me Marm it wasnt easy to just "use meseta to do x" then bypass maybe like that idk.

OR remove payout. Why not after all ? Make Meseta only coming from drop, and npc

I think there is more solutions than problems tbh.

Well, pretty much this is why it's not the best idea to keep adding currencies. I can lean on GC mostly because the systems already seem to be there. Converting Meseta to GC or vice versa isn't a major issue, so we can at least have some kind of Meseta sink going on here. Putting useful things in NPC's is fine, but they also need to be perishable goods, otherwise it's just a straight conversion to an alternative currency. The same reason buying an item from the player market isn't a sink, unless we cheesed Meseta Tax.

But you're right, adding Meseta onto existing systems is difficult without adding extra steps. If it were at all possible, then it would be the first thing on the list. We're very much stuck using the systems that are present. Meseta, GC, AP, Exchanges. At least with something like the Fortune Teller or the Offering Box, they have the UI's available to show the player what something costs. With Grinding cost, it would be invisible and would cause more complaints than already exists.

---

Anyway, as is the general feeling of mine, and from my point of view, right now we're very steadily drifting toward "only the best exists", and I'm afraid we're only going to keep removing things as time goes on. The element floor already gets tampered with, and still gets pushed for more change. We've already basically removed grinding depth, and now element percent's are being chiseled out, too. It's largely down to the fact that it takes a very large amount of time and effort to get anything, much more anything you want. So of course people want it to be the best it can ever be because if they have to put all their effort into simply finding it, then why do they have to spend more time just to polish it.

It's somewhat disheartening, considering my goal has always been to restore and keep all of the games mechanic going some way or another. Removing them one by one is turning PSU into a very big safety net that only provides the best of everything and never challenges you. Well, outside of "Hey kid, think you can do 1000 laps? lmao". A lot of problems come about because of something else, generally something we've caused, and we end up "fixing it" by altering the wrong things.

  • Drops are too hard, hunting is too unrewarding, exhausts players.
    • Appease by raising the element floor and kill grind fails. Make drops harder because good items are too common and easy??? 🤦‍♂️
       
  • Item Depth is diminishing as a result of bad drop rates and exhaustion.
    • Fix it by making a hodgepodge Prototype system that adds more exhaustion to the hunt 🥲 get asked to make it more common.
       
  • Incap is too effective, everyone using it.
    • Fix it by limiting the scenarios it can be used in, instead of fixing its proc rate. Consider nerfing it more or remove it because it's still "too good"??? 🤦‍♂️
       
  • Enemies are too hard, Confusion is too useless against them, so is Charm.
    • Fix it by swapping SE's for DoT's, make some SE's 100% proc to disable enemies. Make enemy HP and resistances even higher because it's too easy for the 10%? 🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️

Do you see where I'm going with this?

PSU used to be a bit of a bumpy hill, and now it's a very sharp and spikey mountain of extremes in either direction. For some reason we make things overly difficult, and then resolve it by making everything else easy, or vice versa. The game is very slowly being reduced down to nothing if it carries on like this. Right now, the overall time balance seems to be whack, where most of it is going straight into running the same mission over and over, instead of anything else. I can very much see this going down the path of completely removing grinding, removing < 45%, and being 100% run mission 2000 times for item. I'm trying to avoid this. There's more to PSU, but for some reason we're constantly removing pieces.

I want to rebalance the effort-to-reward ratio. Let there be more to the game instead of less, let items have their intended depth back, let some drop rates be relaxed. Hopefully we can stop trying to make things so uniform and tightly wrapped, and we can stop doing extreme fixes for problems we seem to create.

Cheers for the feedback thus far. I've been making some changes to my ideas and I'll reflect them on my original post in the near-ish future.

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I think people will understand that going back to certain "basics" (like weapons breaking) is important with this post.

Thanks for the general clarification and for the specific response. Whatever is coming, the game is currently better than og so I'm not worry about the future here. 

Good luck !

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I for one understood where you wanted to go with the upgrade device and GC and if it means items can drop more often that are broken and can be repaired with all the resources we obtain while hunting, I think that's great. Since GC won't be an IRL money thing anymore and is just for time spent *playing the game*, that's a very good thing. In fact, it would probably be better than PSO2's grinding because you still had to use specific items that only dropped from 1 single enemy which you otherwise didn't farm in 95% of content. 

As it currently stands, I'm then curious how you would change grinding/the upgrade device. Would going from 8/10 to 10/10 still be RNG that could fail back to 0/10? You mentioned weapon progress won't reverse, so maybe it's just that the grind doesn't fall if failure. Is the upgrade device only used to unbreak the weapon's cap, and if people choose to grind from 0-8? This is the part I still don't quite understand how it would be after.

To be quite frank, I don't understand everyone's obsession with 10/10 being so difficult when GAS is around the corner that gives big bonuses to max grind equipment. All it does currently is heavily check your wallet if you want to get all you can out of your current weapon, especially striking players since they need/want 6-7 of each type. I personally don't want grinding to be piss easy, but I do want it to be reasonable and straightforward. Hopefully the introduction of the upgrade device introduces consistency in that regard and removes some of the RNG swings of grinding.

 

Edited by milranduil
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Looking at all the various amounts of input that this discussion has. I am convinced this isn't the final server we were all looking forward to play. This has became a server for testing more things than the actual test server itself. This is something I just don't understand.

We had all the time in the world to throw around ideas during the test server. Now we are testing all these things during the "final" server instead and completely screwing over honest players of the game. 

As a player, I should have been compensated for the loss of value my items have experienced due to these changes. My market share was directly attacked and I desperately tried to give insight to why the change to grinding is a bad idea. Players are now experiencing the negative effects of this change. Where is my compensation? Are other players thoughts regarded as more important than mine for whatever reason? I never even broke the rules of the game yet I am being punished? Doesn't make sense to me. How can I plan for the future when my plans get directly attacked?

Compensation in meseta or grinders for me would be a start. But NOTHING can replace the people who have quit due to the tests that happened on the "final" server.

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To add onto what Marmy said, clem is just frustrating to us right now. We want to see it better, we want to experiment with things and genuinely make something that everyone that liked PSU back then wants to hop on and play, even if just a little for nostalgia. Clem is meant to be PSU with sprinkles on top, but so far we're not seeing that and everyone is frustrated. Everyone who has given feedback so far wants the game to be better. We want the game to get better. It's just a matter of tossing ideas around and finding a solution.

 

The problem is making everyone happy. One person wants X and the other wants Y, but we can't realistically have both without ending with a mix of systems and features that don't work together. The best we have right now is making PSU customizable enough that the player can really play the PSU they want to play. Adding options instead of removing things to make place for others. Here are a few examples.

Missions having heavily / removed requirements doesn't mean that you HAVE to play a harder mission. The door is open and missions retain their recommended levels in the description if you want to follow that. If you are feeling like you have to play super hard missions to level up faster then chances are that you are the kind of player that likes pushing themselves to find the best solution to the problem. We want to reward that too. If you're good at the game and can progress fast, it's probably not your first go and maybe you're tired of early game. It will still be a journey to level up to level cap, just not a chore. I think Marm already mentioned it, but we're planning for scenarios where players have been boosted to higher levels by creating new titles with some goodies in them to make sure everyone has a base. If this doesn't end up working or no one wants to see this happen, it wont happen.

Grinding offering you a new way to customize your weapon. Old grinding is still there (and most likely much easier...) but now you could add what stat fits you as well. Make the weapon you want to that fits better with your playstyle. We're still exploring how to do it and what exactly we want it to be but we threw the idea out there to let you guys know that we know current grinding is not fun. IF that system does go out, I would assume that only the max grind goes down on a fail or has a chance to. It would be frustrating to lose a hard earned atp+10 grinder and like Marm mentioned, we don't want anyone to progress backwards. Marm has already talked about this in great length so I wont add anymore to avoid causing misunderstandings.

GAS maybe being a thing means that a lot more becomes possible in terms of character customization. Personally, I hope to see GAS options become a choice rather than "pick this and that because you have to or else you're useless". It shouldn't step over what worked on official but instead add a few new styles that you can choose to if you desire to build a different character. GAS is still very much incomplete and we'll have to play around with it to figure out what works and what doesn't. We're also open to having it be completely the same as it was if everyone would prefer it being that way.

 

Generally, the way the game has been balanced so far has been a lot of "on paper this works". With Extended, we're taking a slower "try it out" approach by testing things and playing the game. Some things sound scary on paper but are actually really fun to play with. Early game has gotten some amount of testing which showed us new things and flaws that were fixed. As for the endgame, we'll be doing the same amount of playtest and see what works and what doesn't. Generally, Extended might take a while longer to release because of the fact that we want it to really be something everyone wants and cares for. We want to polish those rough edges along with bringing back the rest of the game that marm wanted to give you guys for a long time.

Anyways, I'm not the best at these kind of messages, but I hope I was able to share my point of view and what I've been thinking about when I proposed some of the changes for extended. Thanks everyone for the feedback so far, it's been a lot to read but I'm happy to see that people are discussing changes and sharing their likes and dislikes! We're reading all of them and talking changes to extended. I know this is probably obvious to some, but I want to reassure everyone that everything mentioned so far is in the idea phase and subject to change. Thank you! Have a nice day!

 

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23 minutes ago, Ronald Mcdonald said:

Looking at all the various amounts of input that this discussion has. I am convinced this isn't the final server we were all looking forward to play. This has became a server for testing more things than the actual test server itself. This is something I just don't understand.

We had all the time in the world to throw around ideas during the test server. Now we are testing all these things during the "final" server instead and completely screwing over honest players of the game. 

As a player, I should have been compensated for the loss of value my items have experienced due to these changes. My market share was directly attacked and I desperately tried to give insight to why the change to grinding is a bad idea. Players are now experiencing the negative effects of this change. Where is my compensation? Are other players thoughts regarded as more important than mine for whatever reason? I never even broke the rules of the game yet I am being punished? Doesn't make sense to me. How can I plan for the future when my plans get directly attacked?

Compensation in meseta or grinders for me would be a start. But NOTHING can replace the people who have quit due to the tests that happened on the "final" server.

 

On 8/16/2021 at 4:24 PM, Marmalade said:

After all, Clementine isn’t “finished” per se, it’s just in a state where I no longer have to wipe your data to continue. 

 

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@milranduil I didn't say I thought the game was completely finished. The other servers before this were referred to as TEST servers.

I think additions to the game are great btw! By all means make the game closer to being finished. I personally thought that grinding was finished because of the similarity it had to OG.

Nobody had the slightest idea on how different grinding would be changed and tested during this server. We were all given the impression that core game mechanics already implemented were tested during the many years we had to test them. During TEST servers. 😪

I warned EVERYONE about the negative effects that would happen with a grinding change. Let me explain to you, the grinding change was brought into the light by someone who was associated with client hackers. Now a ton of my progress got reversed even though I practically begged for grinding to be looked at more carefully.

I deserve compensation.

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29 minutes ago, Ronald Mcdonald said:

@milranduil I didn't say I thought the game was completely finished. The other servers before this were referred to as TEST servers.

I think additions to the game are great btw! By all means make the game closer to being finished. I personally thought that grinding was finished because of the similarity it had to OG.

Nobody had the slightest idea on how different grinding would be changed and tested during this server. We were all given the impression that core game mechanics already implemented were tested during the many years we had to test them. During TEST servers. 😪

I warned EVERYONE about the negative effects that would happen with a grinding change. Let me explain to you, the grinding change was brought into the light by someone who was associated with client hackers. Now a ton of my progress got reversed even though I practically begged for grinding to be looked at more carefully.

I deserve compensation.

I'm not sure if your aware, but your not the only one that had to deal with these changes. Mistakes happen, we learn from them we move on. This isn't sega, this is a fanmade project trying to breath life into a game that has long since died, that people spend day and night trying to fix and have effectively made it their job. we aren't entitled to anything but the server they try to provide, otherwise you could do it yourself.

But I do want to point out that it was stated multiple times that this was  stated to be it's 1.0 release and that most of the testing was/should have been done before hand, and most issues ironed out too many changes have altered the game to be unrecognizable in it's current form. PSU already had it's own form of grinding for gear that worked, and no one really had an issue with the drops before hand. i think the introduction of the prototype system was interesting, yes, but it's also showing to present it own issues as it may have devalued existing items entirely. the grind system always had its flaws, but psu jp tried to remedy those issues, but through monetization, nothing needed to really change besides offering these systems through a free method like farming/other method's. I don't think having the weapons drop with random max values is the right choice, i think alot of these changes, need to be rolled out in moderation from both sides(as in who wants the game to be harder, or who liked the game as it was intended), There's nothing wrong with improving the early game grind, But let's not completely overhaul the game to such a dramatic state or you'll break more issues than solving. I think all the content needs to be out. and maybe make the early grind easier. There's already an issue with some enemies being overtuned. So we need to see what the ACTUAL endgame looks like before proceeding.

Edited by Lupophobia
Clearing up misconfusion
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3 hours ago, Marmalade said:

Just so we're working on the same page, I want to be clear that I'm now currently working on the assumption that

  1. Weapons can be repaired at The Upgrade Device regardless of their current grind.
  2. Your weapon progress wouldn't reverse.

As pulled directly from this page: http://re-psupedia.info/The_Upgrade_Device

 

"If you have broken a weapon during the grinding process, it can be repaired for another chance at a successful upgrade. In order to repair a broken weapon, it must be at its maximum possible grind level (2/2 or 5/5, for example)."

 

That's my source for a weapon needing to be max ground in order to repair it if it is damaged.

 

3 hours ago, Marmalade said:

When it comes to The Upgrade Device, there's more to it than its relevancy, and it somewhat goes beyond Grinding as well, unfortunately. I might be missing something obvious, so feel free to point out anything else I might miss, but as it currently stands I believe Striking weapons are the only ones with considerable depth, in the form of Elements and Element Percent. This is already something that's slowly being put to rest, where I fear eventually all that we'll see is 45-50% drops, due to how rare and how much effort it takes to get a respectable palette. This also unfortunately affects Line Shields.

You don't need to raise the floor for elemental drops since you plan on including the Upgrade Device; it lets you use GC to change elements of striking weapons and line shields, as well as pump their % rate up to a cap of 40% via that method. If I'm farming a striking weapon and get it in the wrong element, and it's low at that, I still got my target. Now I need the GC needed to change its element, and then pump it up to 40%. I know nothing about the guts of that quest, but maybe you can make the max for that 50% instead with a new GC price tier? Or just include it in the 30-40% tier, making it 30-50% instead. This is what I meant by the Upgrade Device (I think I kept using the wrong name, I'm sorry) almost always being relevant no matter what.

 

I'll admit that I am knee jerking a little about the idea of weapons dropping at 0/8 and needing to spend to repair them. I apologize if I've been a pain in the ass about this. In light of reviewing that link, it might not be too bad, but that also depends on the rates at which we will be earning GC for our activities. Maybe it'll be a drop in the bucket, or it'll be a price we need to consider a bit. Far as I know (which isn't much) numbers have just been tossed around and nothing is set in stone. Depending on the rate of earning GC, I might be a bit more okay with that solution for making certain things drop more.

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52 minutes ago, Jakoo56 said:

Missions having heavily / removed requirements doesn't mean that you HAVE to play a harder mission. The door is open and missions retain their recommended levels in the description if you want to follow that. If you are feeling like you have to play super hard missions to level up faster then chances are that you are the kind of player that likes pushing themselves to find the best solution to the problem. We want to reward that too. If you're good at the game and can progress fast, it's probably not your first go and maybe you're tired of early game. It will still be a journey to level up to level cap, just not a chore. I think Marm already mentioned it, but we're planning for scenarios where players have been boosted to higher levels by creating new titles with some goodies in them to make sure everyone has a base. If this doesn't end up working or no one wants to see this happen, it wont happen.

This sounds nice in theory, but in practice I fear there will be a lot of power leveling. Several proposed changes will make it significantly easier to power level new players, too:

- The removal of tagging. Everyone gets full exp from each kill, even if they just hung back away from the mobs (note: I don't like tagging either and agree with removing it)

- The removal of enemy scaling based on player count. I'd be able to drag 5 newbies along for Fantastic Voyage runs without making it any harder on myself than it currently is to solo it.

- The removal of mission rank penalties for dying and returning to lobby. Now I don't even have to use moons/giresta on the newbies, they can just run back.

And even if you start out resolved to level yourself and not get power leveled, it's going to be in the back of your mind that you could progress a lot faster by just asking a high level for a party (and that they have no real reason to turn you down).

Are you and Marm ok with people getting power leveled? If so, I guess there's not much more I can say about this.

1 hour ago, Jakoo56 said:

GAS maybe being a thing means that a lot more becomes possible in terms of character customization. Personally, I hope to see GAS options become a choice rather than "pick this and that because you have to or else you're useless". It shouldn't step over what worked on official but instead add a few new styles that you can choose to if you desire to build a different character. GAS is still very much incomplete and we'll have to play around with it to figure out what works and what doesn't. We're also open to having it be completely the same as it was if everyone would prefer it being that way.

And on a more positive note, yes please. What you're describing sounds like the ideal for GAS and I can't wait to see it happen.

 

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No one has been deeply impacted in their wallet or their progress because of the changes, or then they have to come to explain why because I have never seen people in this situation whether they are casual or hardcore players.

 

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51 minutes ago, Aelphasy said:

No one has been deeply impacted in their wallet or their progress because of the changes, or then they have to come to explain why because I have never seen people in this situation whether they are casual or hardcore players.

 

I disagree with all of this.

There's been multiple times when people have complained about grinding being either too tedious and time consuming, or how farming for gear takes an excessive amount of time, or how people spend their entire time in IC looking for something they never got, there are people who farmed alot and couldnt even afford some of the rewards. and even in the current situation with people farming for things like shijin / ouryu. Just because players have progressed doesn't mean they do so at an abysmal rate or in such a way that it was costly to them. instead when something doesn't work out for them they usually quit. cause I certainly have people on my end who have had these exact issues. Just because it doesn't effect some doesn't mean that cases like this don't exist, especially for casual players. Just because some players have 9000000 pa fragments, megispheres w.e doesnt mean every single player does, and has the time and effort to login, every day, 24/7 like its suddenly 2010 on some child's summer break.

If no one was impacted in their "wallet" why are changes to the grind system being offered? why are systems to improve how gear is handled being offered? It's not purely on the fact that grind is tedious grinders themselves are pricey, and not everyone has 900 grinders stashed away. If people weren't spending 10~50mil for a singular item during S2 cap then it wouldn't be a problem. Just because some people can do this, doesn't mean every play is the same. Progress is a very subjective in the case of PSU. What is progress when the game is purely based on a lottery system on whether or not the game decides to give you the item you desire? Everyone's want's and needs are always different. and not everyone runs in the same friend groups all the time either. and it's been said numerous time, people are losing friends, people are quitting, people don't care to play anymore because they're tired of how repetitive some of the most basic things are in the game.

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@Marm I see where you're coming from with grinding. It's a resource sink. If you have to spend GC it takes junk rares out of the economy and the hours are invested in hunting junk so that's less time amassing grinders and sitting in front of the NPC. I'm on board with that! As for your replies...

7 hours ago, Marmalade said:

As for the "99% of drops need to not suck" and "pity mechanic", see above for Item Depth and GC. I would refrain from adding too many alternate currencies like tickets, because eventually it becomes really overwhelming. Similar to how a bunch of worthless mats drop in C rank, you don't really know what to keep and what to sell. 

I get you, PSO2 was known as Pickup Stones Online 2 at one point. I think it's worth seeing how Item Depth and GC play out, then decide from there.

7 hours ago, Marmalade said:

This one has confused me, but it might be because I've worded this incredibly poorly. By filling the gap between good and bad items, I'm specifically talking about Item Depth. Not, say, making B ranks as good as S ranks, or making obsolete gear as good as BiS. Have I misunderstood you o_O?

Essentially it's suggesting that items should drop at lower percentages instead of weighting toward 45-50% pretty much always, which means worse drop rates because the item is "good". When all the items become nothing but good, then Prototypes become the good, and the 50%'s become the bad. Then we push toward guaranteed Prototypes, which is already happening...

Eventually, everything will be 1 thing and nothing else, and they will either be ridiculously hard to find, or ridiculously cheap to buy.

I agree with the measure itself i.e. Item Depth. I don't agree with the perspective which is that everyone will hunt for the same item.

Example: at one point on US Official, Vish Adac was best in slot but expensive. I was looking for good Ice whips and couldn't find them so I thought "what the heck, I have a bunch of spare crafting mats" and bought a Vishic board and used Ray Photons to make an Ice one. And when I pulled it out it was 50%. Then I was like well it's still a Vishic, might as well grind it till it breaks and... it didn't break. So that was my best in slot. I didn't care for Kuseb or Adac at that point. But that can only happen if the gap between different items isn't too wide.

BiS tunnel vision happens because the BiS usually wins on every metric, like huge ATP gain, high PP, high regen, high ATA, set bonus, same grind difficulty and cost as everything else... so all the demand gets concentrated into one thing, which is why costs swing between 20 mil on BiS vs 20k on the next best.

But going back to your point, yes fix what you need to with item depth on the BIS. My No vote is not "don't fix it", but that I don't think that's the root of the problem. But granted the root isn't an easy thing to get to right now, probably at 180.

7 hours ago, Marmalade said:

Anyway, as is the general feeling of mine, and from my point of view, right now we're very steadily drifting toward "only the best exists", and I'm afraid we're only going to keep removing things as time goes on

I think this is a question of what Clem is trying to be. There are, very generally speaking, 2 models:

First is Static. PSO1 was pretty much static, same with a lot of B2P games like Grim Dawn, Diablo II and so on. Everything is released at once, you chase the best item for you and it will stay that way for a very long time. Item progression is horizontal to diagonal. When you change items you tend to give one nice stat up for another.

Second is Live Service like PSO2 and a lot of MMOs. BiS is a moving target because the enemy stats you need to beat are a moving target. New content is designed with the assumption that players are at endgame. Item progression is vertical so your shiny maxed item will be junk in 6 months. Of course items have to be good!

So right now the problem is in practice there is a Live Service-like rolling updates operating model, but a Static game mindset in the design. I think it's a direction and communication thing. Like, decide what Clem is, communicate it and stick to it.

That said I get the sense in this post that you're actually moving towards Static with "Expansions" so for the next 6 months or so it's going to be in an in-between place. Turbulence happens.

Edited by Selphea
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@Lupophobia

I was responding to the person who wanted a "refund" or "compensation" (and who ironically doesn't agree at all with what you're saying) because the system change would have "destroyed" their investment by a one way or another. I'm just saying it's not true, to be there from the start and have seen the first transformation of the grind system.

That said...

Quote

Just because some players have 9000000 pa fragments, megispheres w.e doesnt mean every single player does, and has the time and effort to login, every day, 24/7 like its suddenly 2010 on some child's summer break.

As I said few posts above, even casual but regular players have a surplus of currency. At some point, it's not revelant to be a question of casual/hardcore, it's a question of simple balance between money sink, and other "sink" you can think. Marmalade replied about it, think it will be in the good way soon or later (and anyway for extra rare stuff, money will always have purpose for player shop, but thats not money sink...)

Quote

What is progress when the game is purely based on a lottery system on whether or not the game decides to give you the item you desire?

Same problem on the drop rate of some jewels in MHW, some objects in PoE, some "many other things" in grind based games... Basically, if you don't have time to play this kind of game but WANT to play them with top geared stuff, it's like "ok, I want to eat at fast food every day but I don't want to gain weight" here is more about """""losing""""" time, but well, each updates like 20-30% are leaving after one week or two... NOT because they didn't get anything, but precisely because they dropped or bought what they was looking for. And sorry, but this is currently happening with Ouryu and Shinjin. It's going to change anyway, but I'm sorry to say that sometimes the arguments for changing it aren't good and don't really match with the reality of the game.

(this doesnt mean endgame stuff must be earned after 300h or a character need 3kh to be god tier, not my point)

Sorry for the confusion anyway, since my message was for another thing.

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6 hours ago, Aelphasy said:

@Lupophobia

I was responding to the person who wanted a "refund" or "compensation" (and who ironically doesn't agree at all with what you're saying) because the system change would have "destroyed" their investment by a one way or another. I'm just saying it's not true, to be there from the start and have seen the first transformation of the grind system.

Okay this is fair, having some of the confusion cleared up makes more sense, but it does suck when you waste a bunch of resources on something minor for it to have an equal success rate for every single weapon in the game when no weapon is equal. not exactly fun to start with around 10mil grind and A rank and lose all your hard work and try to figure out where to go from there. Would have to say both systems were punishing to players for wanting to progress.

 

7 hours ago, Aelphasy said:

That said...

As I said few posts above, even casual but regular players have a surplus of currency. At some point, it's not revelant to be a question of casual/hardcore, it's a question of simple balance between money sink, and other "sink" you can think. Marmalade replied about it, think it will be in the good way soon or later (and anyway for extra rare stuff, money will always have purpose for player shop, but thats not money sink...)

Same problem on the drop rate of some jewels in MHW, some objects in PoE, some "many other things" in grind based games... Basically, if you don't have time to play this kind of game but WANT to play them with top geared stuff, it's like "ok, I want to eat at fast food every day but I don't want to gain weight" here is more about """""losing""""" time, but well, each updates like 20-30% are leaving after one week or two... NOT because they didn't get anything, but precisely because they dropped or bought what they was looking for. And sorry, but this is currently happening with Ouryu and Shinjin. It's going to change anyway, but I'm sorry to say that sometimes the arguments for changing it aren't good and don't really match with the reality of the game.

(this doesnt mean endgame stuff must be earned after 300h or a character need 3kh to be god tier, not my point)

Sorry for the confusion anyway, since my message was for another thing.

I think that's the inevitability of having something available for so long, People tend to farm for the thing they want and after they get it, they don't spend on that exact item anymore, it also doesn't help that the JP PAs aren't in, but how do you resolve this? make all the JP PAs on release cost 99 pa fragments? No, Maybe limit the amount held, prevent multiple stacks of this items to be held in the first place. It'll be the same as meseta, Yes you can carry 99mil on you, 99mil in storage, 99mill in your bot, and all your alts, while also still being able carry gold bars. There's not enough limitation on the amount of money a player can make, or the resources they hold, it will just lead to hoarding. It's like if GC is implemented without some sort of cap it will end up being the same way. Sure the active player can buy, earn, and buy again to prevent the cap from reaching is maximum. But it'll also means the players that don't farm as frequently or as rapidly can still enjoy the game. at some point people will reach that point where they can acquire basically everything, That's inevitable.  it happens in old and new MMO's and it's not always a bad thing. The way to keep players engaged to add more engaging customized content. not making existing content worse than it currently stands because your pockets are full. 
Speaking from a player that doesn't have more than 60 PA fragments because I don't play every day or every week, I play when I feel the need to enjoy the game. So there you go. You have that one person who doesn't have everything maxed out. And I still know others who are in a similar situation, and their reasoning is for leaving/not being able to play all the time is all different. One of them, someone who does have the money, used to play none stop and has the resources to do these sorts of things. Their reason for not playing is simply due to the fact that theres 170 enemies on S2, and while i don't have an issue with it, they do. whats next? 190~220 on S3? 255 enemies on S4? most enemies on S4 only went up to 190. this with the addition of the enemy scaling, spells disaster. especially if people were complaining about IC on S2. and as far as I can tell, there was alot of don't on IC, and it has become notorious as one of the worse events for clementine, despite having a decent concept.

Clementine is a private server, not some billion $$ company that has the resources to pump out this sort of content. at most we can at least expect the game come out with it's intended content and then some, Whether or not all of it comes out is purely based on what can be managed on their end. which is why we need to see the game's content reach endgame, drip feeding the content to this point hasn't really aided in keeping content relevant too much, cause there's also people who simply want all the content to be out before they even start playing, I played this games demo, I've played the 360, PS2/PC en port, I've also played on JP. A lot of the time people seem to only care about farming for the best item, or farming for the unit, then they get what they want, get bored, and leave. This isn't just a clementine issue, it happens with all games and is inevitable, the issue really is how gear in PSU is designed as there's usually only one of that best item in the game. this is more of the an issue of really shitty balance on sega's part but maybe the team at clementine can correct this, or better create new content to make up for what sega slacked in(which is already somewhat being done.) But there needs to be steps these sort of things so alot of it needs to be taken in slow moderation.

Also, by saying people are only leaving because they always get what they want and always have the money to do so is incredibly ignorant of the fact that people are quitting outside of those reasonings. otherwise again, people wouldn't be complaining about drops. people wouldn't have complained about IC leaving a nasty impression on the games "difficulty scaling" and costing them to leave. Again, not every player is the same, by only saying players are leaving solely because of those two reasons, then your undermining the people who speak otherwise.

It's more along the lines of saying Because I have an iphone everyone must own an iphone, right? things aren't so black and white. There's a large grey area for alot of these things.

But thank you for clearing up the confusion.

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Let's stop pointing fingers at each other and get back to discussing the topic at hand.

This discussion, these updates, this server isn't here for any one individual, so let's not make this about one's self. The only way your issues with the server can be solved is by doing what Marm and others are doing here. Write it out with thoughtful reasoning and understanding that this is a community driven game and compromises must be made. If you're not enjoying yourself and no longer wish to support Clementine, no one is forcing you to stay and play.

With that said, even though I'm 50/50 with all the listed ideas, the only one I'm still having difficulties with is removing the level restrictions for missions. @Zeta's recent post explains this problem well (and I wish I could like the post, but forum keeps telling me no. D:< )

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5 hours ago, Seority said:

Let's stop pointing fingers at each other and get back to discussing the topic at hand.

This discussion, these updates, this server isn't here for any one individual, so let's not make this about one's self. The only way your issues with the server can be solved is by doing what Marm and others are doing here. Write it out with thoughtful reasoning and understanding that this is a community driven game and compromises must be made. If you're not enjoying yourself and no longer wish to support Clementine, no one is forcing you to stay and play.

With that said, even though I'm 50/50 with all the listed ideas, the only one I'm still having difficulties with is removing the level restrictions for missions. @Zeta's recent post explains this problem well (and I wish I could like the post, but forum keeps telling me no. D:< )

Agreed, the removal of mission level restrictions would be a bit problematic having new players on endgame content, I think the best solution would maybe allow for the next two tiers of difficulty max.
Example:
lvl 1: 1~25 can access C~B immediately.
lvl 26~50 can access A~S
lvl 75~100 can access S2~S3(maybe just go straight to S4 as soon as you hit 100)
lvl 125~180 can access S4 immediately.
Maybe these values can be adjusted? but there should definitely be some sort of limitation.
I would assume players at 100 would eventually know the risk of the higher difficulty scaling by this point and would be prepared to whatever extent they can, especially considering they would be able to equip most if not all items in the game. the only difference would be their stat difference. It can work, but it definitely will need adjustments.
another suggestion is
1~99 can go up to to S
100~180 is S2~s4.
if it were to be even less restrictful. but i can guarentee that i can certainly clear B rank content starting from lvl 1. those newbie corners still exist, Lol and as long as a newman can DAMAGE ANYTHING. then there is no restriction or whether or not they can hit them. I think the real issue would be low level players not physically being able to hit anything. So another solution would just be.. pure stat scaling, maybe make enemy evasion 25% higher if the level is excessively high. If the accuracy system was changed with insane variation, I could see a similar situation to the lvl 19 vs lvl 20 comparison in NGS against gigantix. Where even though your 1lvl too low your hitting 1s... though in this case maybe less severe because different formula different stat scaling.

To add: Thinking about it now that would punish low levels for entering content early, which may be a good/bad? depends on how severe the penalty is, especially if we're also talking about making adjustments exp for enemies that are too high, it would be counter productive to buff, then also nerf exp rates at the same time. 

Edited by Lupophobia
additional thoughts.
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No one loves sticking their nose deep up into my business than Aelphasy.

A tree falls in the woods and Aelphasy is ready to say how my opinion is the most wrong opinion that has ever existed in the universe. 

You have a problem buddy and you need to find a new person to ridicule. Or better yet a new hobby. Can we just have a blacklist option so that you can no longer harass every opinion I have on the forums? It's because of you that I get no response to anything that I say. Not to mention you are straight up acting like a total predator.

I say I deserve compensation because of how hard I fought to explain the long lasting problems with the grinding change. I spent so much time and resources preparing for the future just to have my plans destroyed. I literally gave a ton of explanation along with detailed charts showing why this was a bad idea. I had 1/1 broken items that I PAID MILLIONS FOR fixed. All the changes went against my entire play style.

I don't understand why I have to keep being directly attacked by updates and people like you.

That's why I deserve compensation.

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