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A really, really crazy discussion about all of the things.


Marmalade
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What are your overall feelings toward the changes detailed in this post?  

154 members have voted

  1. 1. How do you feel about the Character Progression detailed in this post?

    • I like raising the Level Cap by a full difficulty tier instead of 4~5 levels every update.
      115
    • I like the experience bonus to new characters.
      127
    • I like the removal of enemy tagging requirement.
      126
    • I like the MP requirement for basic types being reduced.
      120
    • I like the MP payout being increased by 50%.
      131
    • I like that Dying no longer reduced clear rank.
      102
    • I like that Limit Break hitboxes are enabled for all levels.
      94
    • I like that all of the clothing is in the clothing store, instead of Exchange MIssions.
      114
    • I like the increase to Rare Enemies and Rare Mission probabilities.
      129
    • I like the removal of the Lobby Restrictions for new players.
      120
    • I like the idea of relaxing Mission Level Requirements.
      83
    • I like that Attack Accuracy affects variance instead of hitting 0.
      113
    • I like the ideas for the Meseta Sink.
      91
    • I like the idea of relaxing Guardians Daily and Weekly Quests.
      121
    • No Comment
      6
  2. 2. How do you feel about the Prototype and Grinding suggestions?

    • I like the idea of using The Upgrade Device for weapon repairs.
      86
    • I like the idea of lowering the chance of Max Grind reduction when failing a Grind.
      81
    • I like the idea of Prototypes having Max Grind Potential of 15 instead of the current system.
      93
    • I like the idea of Attribute Grinders to customize my weapon how I want.
      106
    • No Comment
      25
  3. 3. How do you feel about the approach to Drops in this post?

    • I like the idea of filling the gap between good and bad items.
      114
    • I like the idea of Weapons dropping with lower Max Grind Potential to bolster drops and keep The Upgrade Device relevant.
      71
    • I like the idea of Weapons and Shields dropping with lower Element %, again to bolster drops and increase the chance of items dropping.
      87
    • I like the idea of having an Item Sink in exchange for an alternative currency to use in guaranteed rewards.
      117
    • I like the idea of all Synthesis items having the ability to drop in missions.
      110
    • No Comment
      15


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And I don't want this experience to be confined to a few specially defined challenge missions.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like you want this game to be a more casual experience overall

I think that the objective (to schematize) is to have 60% of the game "easy" and very accessible to all, then a "normal" endgame (which will start at the last tier of S2 or at the start of S3) where it will be necessary to provide a certain amount of effort to have a solid equipment and go through the toughest missions without any problem. This is the 40% that remains, with perhaps a fraction of 10% of "vhard" (hardcore minmaxing so a lot of currency / farm needed, those who want to have a few maxed classes or at least 100, TAing etc)

Which is basically the overall scheme of many modern games of this "kind" ... ("Easy" to go endgame and have a decent gear on MH, Diablo 3... but take a lot of time to masterize/minmax everything)

I fully understand your point, but too many players have complained about early game. Maybe change your perspective, and considere the game "really" start when endgame is reached.

 

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1 hour ago, Zeta said:

I get the feeling that your definition of fun is a lot different from mine. I don't want my adventures to be 'smooth'. When I enter a new stage on a new difficulty and get bodied, my eyes light up with excitement because I now have a new challenge to overcome, and it's time to level up, grab better gear, think over my loadout and eventually master the stage to the point I'm working on clear times, rather than just 'completing it without dying'. And I don't want this experience to be confined to a few specially defined challenge missions.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like you want this game to be a more casual experience overall - one where new players can hop in, swiftly get past the early game, and expect to go through normal missions without much struggle. I can understand why you'd want this but I don't think it's for me.

As it stands I think I'll be departing Clementine after this patch goes live, but I'll hang around long enough to see exactly what happens. Who knows, maybe S3/S4 will be engaging/challenging enough to keep my interest anyway.

Either way, thanks for all the good times until now, and good luck with the server.

 

I'm not trying to make the entire game baby smooth, I think I'm just bad at explaining it. Specifically the entrance for new players is particularly rough right now, even for players that know how to play the game ahead of time. I mean, a lot was pointlessly removed from the early game because of this fear it was "too easy". There's no starting Meseta, there was initially no starting Scape Doll, your equipment sells for 1 Meseta, and the income is massively undershot, while the prices overshot. There's a lack of interaction, a lack of equipment, a lack of Meseta income, just the whole thing is bland and isn't rewarding at all. The early game seems to be Vanilla, while the late game seems to be a nerfed AOTI, and it's a weird progression.

Inviting players in shouldn't give them the hardest task right from Level 1. New players should be able to learn the game first, the game should equip the player with the tools they need, and then present challenging content in the form of difficulty changes, or what have you. I've no problem with there being a difficulty jump when the mission difficulty goes up, I don't have any intention of trying to smooth that, it should exist. It's a good feeling when you start getting better and you can feel the difficulty becoming easier through your own hard work. But at the same time, when you get to B rank and the game has failed to equip you for the challenge, or even hinted at a possible way to become equipped, then I believe there's a problem. When I say "smooth", I don't mean removing all challenge or difficulties presented such that it becomes a straight line, I mean the entrance to the game specifically. The idea is to welcome new players and equip them, and say "This is how you get equipment, these are your options, and this is how you can learn".

Essentially, you wouldn't take someone who's never driven before to a drift track and say "Go on then. If you scratch it, you buy it. Gear stick? figure it out lmao". Of course most of them will get out and go home lol it's not a good learning model. New player retention is equally, if not more important, than old player retention. This is true for virtually any game. If more people go out than new people come in then we have what we have now, but inevitably, old players will always leave regardless of how good things are.

That being said, I am on the side of casual players. That's not to say the things you're enjoying need to change, again, they're not the issues. I'm just worried about the initial starting curve for new players! I hope that makes more sense c:

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One solution to many of these contradictory things (i.e. different players, want completely different behaviors). E.g. Grinding does/doesn't blow up weapons, 'Super rare legendary weapons', drop frequently/almost-never, cost-a-fortune/are-really-cheap, land guaranteed 50%/Have-a-1-in-500-chance-of-being-50%, etc etc.

 

Is to create either 12 save slots per character (8 might do, which is perhaps already implemented), or a switch (perhaps via command line macro things), which allows on creation ONLY, a particular character, to be one of three states.

Type-One: An easy 'TRAINER' type of character. Significant/generous exp boosts, much better drop rates for low end gear/stuff (but NOT high end stuff), easier MP, reduced MP requirements. BUT this character can't make any master*** classes, and has other higher end restrictions. Perhaps limited to a lower than normal level cap, e.g. 100 max.

Type-TWO: A normal like now, character. Moderately difficult exp and MP, normal drop rates, etc. Level cap (eventually) perhaps 150.

 

Type-THREE: MEGA-SUPER-WARRIOR-LEGENDARY character.  (Eventually) level capping at 200+. Exp is much harder to obtain (MUST tag enemies), strict/hard MP requirements, slow MP rates, access to the top two star*** level tier NEW weapons, which are Mega powerful/great. But which DO blow up when ground, and only drop VERY rarely. But when you have them they are great.

N.B. It needs great skill, experience (of the human kind), ability and quality of person, to be a M.S.W.L. character. Expect it to take quite some effort, to level/create such characters.

 

In game these different character types, could be given different colouring schemes, as in their on screen titles.

 

Another option, would be you have to start off as Type-One, but when you reach its level cap, you can (via a special, one-time use option), switch to the Type-TWO character.

Eventually when you level cap that, it can then switch to a Type-THREE character.

Disclaimer: Other game(s) already do something similar, so I have sort of borrowed the idea(s).

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38 minutes ago, Marmalade said:

I'm not trying to make the entire game baby smooth, I think I'm just bad at explaining it. Specifically the entrance for new players is particularly rough right now, even for players that know how to play the game ahead of time. I mean, a lot was pointlessly removed from the early game because of this fear it was "too easy". There's no starting Meseta, there was initially no starting Scape Doll, your equipment sells for 1 Meseta, and the income is massively undershot, and the prices overshot. There's a lack of interaction, a lack of equipment, a lack of Meseta income, just the whole thing isn't bland and rewarding at all. The early game seems to be Vanilla, while the late game seems to be a nerfed AOTI, and it's a weird progression.

Inviting players in shouldn't give them the hardest task right from Level 1. New players should be able to learn the game first, the game should equip the player with the tools they need, and then present challenging content in the form of difficulty changes, or what have you. I've no problem with there being a difficulty jump when the mission difficulty goes up, I don't have any intention of trying to smooth that, it should exist. It's a good feeling when you start getting better and you can feel the difficulty becoming easier through your own hard work. But at the same time, when you get to B rank and the game has failed to equip you for the challenge, or even hinted at a possible way to become equipped, then I believe there's a problem. When I say "smooth", I don't mean removing all challenge or difficulties presented such that it becomes a straight line, I mean the entrance to the game specifically. The idea is to welcome new players and equip them, and say "This is how you get equipment, these are your options, and this is how you can learn".

Essentially, you wouldn't take someone who's never driven before to a drift track and say "Go on then. If you scratch it, you buy it. Gear stick? figure it out lmao". Of course most of them will get out and go home lol it's not a good learning model. New player retention is equally, if not more important, than old player retention. This is true for virtually any game. If more people go out than new people come in then we have what we have now, but inevitably, old players will always leave regardless of how good things are.

That being said, I am on the side of casual players. That's not to say the things you're enjoying need to change, again, they're not the issues. I'm just worried about the initial starting curve for new players! I hope that makes more sense c:

Oh, I agree that fresh accounts could use some assistance in the equipment and meseta departments - I think I've even said as much in previous threads. I generally enjoyed the early game, though there were some things in it that annoyed even me - I remember being afraid of trying the high cost (20k?) photon arts because that was a lot of meseta and if I didn't end up liking the PA it'd feel like a big hit. I also used to stock excess trimates gained from easy missions in my share box so I'd have them avaliable for harder missions (500 meseta a pop? that's a lot!). The early game could definitely do without that kind of experience - new players should be able to get their hands on PAs, basic gear and consumables without it being a huge struggle. It also doesn't help that the game throws asstons of garbage at new players (low rarity crafting materials, mostly) and you don't necessarily know what of this is valuable or worth keeping or not.

And one of the changes I didn't comment on was "I like that Limit Break hitboxes are enabled for all levels." because I simply agree with that (playing techer without LBs just sucks). There are a fair amount of good changes that I agree with proposed in this patch. There are also things I don't agree with (ex: removal/relaxation of level restrictions on missions, boosted EXP rates), but they're not deal breakers for me because I've been playing a while and already have 3 of my slots filled with level 100+ characters and thus they don't affect me so much.

The proposed changes that I'm concerned about are the ones that affect the whole game, not early game. 

- Dying no longer penalizing mission rank means I'll feel less tension when I'm in tough spots. No need to carry expensive scape dolls anymore, I can just die and come back and lose nothing but a little time.

- Enemies having significantly less HP will just make the game easier and let you blow through stuff faster. I enjoy enemies having some bulk, and this means less pressure to acquire new weapons because now everything will die faster than I'm used to anyway.

- Misses no longer being a thing, making enemies feel more bland and allowing me to always reliably crowd control things (as opposed to having to stay on my toes and having to adapt to missed PAs)

These won't just make things smoother for new players, they'll make the game a fair bit less challenging for me playing S2/3/4.

Edited by Zeta
'less pressure to acquire new weapons'
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Also, I'd like to say that while I'm opposed to removing misses entirely, I'm not opposed to examining the accuracy mechanic and making changes to it (maybe to the formula, or to the amounts of EVP enemies have, etc).

The main thing I want is for enemies that have 'is a dodgy asshole' as a part of their identity (Deljaban, Bal Soza, the insect swarm enemies, Gaozoran, basically anything with  >=150% EVP mod) to retain that, as well as for different weapons with different levels of accuracy to retain their identity. In an ideal world you see a dodgy enemy and think 'well I should pull out my accurate weapon for this'

A simple example of what I'm thinking of would be to lower the EVP mod on anything with a 100% or less EVP mod (say, -20% or whatever). This would make combat more reliable in most circumstances without normalizing away the extra dodgy enemies. If anything, it'd give the dodgy enemies a stronger identity since you won't be missing Go Vahras as much. 

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5 minutes ago, Zeta said:

The main thing I want is for enemies that have 'is a dodgy asshole' as a part of their identity (Deljaban, Bal Soza, the insect swarm enemies, Gaozoran, basically anything with  >=150% EVP mod) to retain that, as well as for different weapons with different levels of accuracy to retain their identity. In an ideal world you see a dodgy enemy and think 'well I should pull out my accurate weapon for this'

A simple example of what I'm thinking of would be to lower the EVP mod on anything with a 100% or less EVP mod (say, -20% or whatever). This would make combat more reliable in most circumstances without normalizing away the extra dodgy enemies. If anything, it'd give the dodgy enemies a stronger identity since you won't be missing Go Vahras as much. 

I'd agree that making having high evasion in some situations can help melee aswell, in situations that prevent the enemy from being knocked down, allowing for your pa's to deal more damage when they're not being sent all over the place. However at higher levels with more of JP items being  introduced, and soon items like Master swordsman ect. missing wont be much of an issue, the main issue is the large lvl difference between current cap and current enemies being  around 170 at S2. and the cap is currently only 119, 51 levels below the enemy.  if a player was closer to the level range, they wouldn't miss as much, and eventually players will reach a point that they would generally never miss, especially races like Casts. So then at the point it would seem like "what's the point of even having the system anyway?" The accuracy variation system may indirectly effect general DPS overall. I feel like another suggestion should be a graze system, where you don't hit 100% but maybe something like non-JA damage or half damage.

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On 8/20/2021 at 10:44 AM, Marmalade said:

I know people hate the idea of weapons breaking, and the general consensus seems to be that it shouldn't ever return. I don't have a solid answer on it yet, but it may be possible to turn the Repair Grind option into a Prototype option, giving players the ability to turn a weapon into a Prototype for GC. However I'm still curious on why people dislike the idea of weapons dropping at 0/8. Most of the answers just seem to be "no", without any reasoning.

What's being complained about your weapon having a certain potential, but that potential is then gambled away by simply wanting to obtain it. It's like training to run a marathon, but every time you stop to take a breather, there's a chance you get worse at running. Why put in effort to just fiddle it away?

If items start dropping at 0/8, as long is doesn't become a 0/7 when I'm trying to make it an 8/8, that's fine. Of course ideally it wouldn't take 100 grinders and 3 hours to do so either...

On 8/20/2021 at 10:44 AM, Marmalade said:

The idea behind it is that the GC you get running the mission and hunting the item can go into fixing it at The Upgrade Device, if you want. In turn, the item you want becomes more common with the exchange being that you put time into something else, instead of the same mission all week. If you don't plan on using the weapon then you can sell it on the market, or fodder exchange it for GC to put toward things you do want. I know it's probably underwhelming to get the item you want and it's gimped by something like that, but at the same time, is it really that much worse than getting nothing at all for 500 runs?

Are you sure they are getting nothing? It may not be that extreme rare that they desire, but I'm sure other things are dropping that have some value to them or others that seem to be disregarded because players tunnel vision onto one specific thing. I saw people who complained about not getting Shijin within a few hours of the update and that's not a healthy behavior nor attitude to prop up. Pretty sure if someone wants BiS/ultra rare, they will keep grinding till they get it, 0/5's and 30%s won't cut it.

Now if we slap on a tax (or whatever you call it) to upgrade weak weapons/armor just so they can drop more, means we'll still be forced to run many missions, just for another cause. If I get a 0/5 weapon after 100 runs, but I need 300 runs to make it a 0/10, now I'm grinding for a whole different reason, but still locked out of what I want. It's a trade off for sure, but not sure if it's a better one.

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5 hours ago, Coast said:

The problem with returning original stats is you are going to have to add the original damage formula to compensate back or you are going to have problems with some enemies reducing damage by 70% and such with the current formula. Kyu instead froze the def so the % reduction doesn't play in and raised the hp. So enemies are having more hp but we do more to compensate. The attack can be toned down though I can agree with that.

i'd rather current HP/frozen def with original ATP/TP than no change at all. the enemy attack currently is absurd.

45 minutes ago, Seority said:

What's being complained about your weapon having a certain potential, but that potential is then gambled away by simply wanting to obtain it. It's like training to run a marathon, but every time you stop to take a breather, there's a chance you get worse at running. Why put in effort to just fiddle it away?

If items start dropping at 0/8, as long is doesn't become a 0/7 when I'm trying to make it an 8/8, that's fine. Of course ideally it wouldn't take 100 grinders and 3 hours to do so either...

Are you sure they are getting nothing? It may not be that extreme rare that they desire, but I'm sure other things are dropping that have some value to them or others that seem to be disregarded because players tunnel vision onto one specific thing. I saw people who complained about not getting Shijin within a few hours of the update and that's not a healthy behavior nor attitude to prop up. Pretty sure if someone wants BiS/ultra rare, they will keep grinding till they get it, 0/5's and 30%s won't cut it.

Now if we slap on a tax (or whatever you call it) to upgrade weak weapons/armor just so they can drop more, means the people whom have a lot of resources will be the ones to achieve these in general, wither that be meseta or available play time. If I get a 0/5 weapon after 100 runs, but I need 300 runs to make it a 0/10, now I'm grinding for a whole different reason, but still locked out of what I want. It's a trade off for sure, but not sure if it's a better one.

why is anything in the current game up to S2 being considered extremely rare to begin with? this is far from endgame still. the problem a lot of people have is the gear train ALWAYS having BiS being extremely rare every single time. it completely disassociates actual rarity or endgame items because the previous X iterations of gear have also been exceptionally rare.

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Let's not forget that 0s happen often because of enemies lvl are currently much higher than us. Best comparison is that try running a mission with same mob lvl as yours and see how often it will miss. It would be much less regardless of high evasion mobs or whatever and that includes fighters.

Nevertheless, I believe 0s should be removed because pa needs hits to lvl up, and only a few a willing to lock a party solo then start a run for extra hits.

In the endgame this wouldn't even be a discussion as arm units with 300 acc and endgame powerful weapons will have high acc anyway. Either taking 0 route and no 0 route doesnt matter, but it WOULD really help current progress as of now. The only thing I'm concerning if 0s are removed is fluctuation of damage and that's why in my previous post, some pas need to be addressed first before it's getting implemented.

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27 minutes ago, milranduil said:

the problem a lot of people have is the gear train ALWAYS having BiS being extremely rare every single time. it completely disassociates actual rarity or endgame items because the previous X iterations of gear have also been exceptionally rare.

What do you think the point of this game is?

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1 hour ago, Seority said:

What's being complained about your weapon having a certain potential, but that potential is then gambled away by simply wanting to obtain it. It's like training to run a marathon, but every time you stop to take a breather, there's a chance you get worse at running. Why put in effort to just fiddle it away?

If items start dropping at 0/8, as long is doesn't become a 0/7 when I'm trying to make it an 8/8, that's fine. Of course ideally it wouldn't take 100 grinders and 3 hours to do so either...

Right, but working from the idea that grinding itself doesn't diminish the item in a way that means you have to go and repair it, and if it did, it would be very uncommon. The current grind would diminish, but the maximum potential is set. Bit like slots rather than attempts available. I don't like the idea of grinding taking so long, and having to pump a load of grinders into a weapon just to 10/10 it, it's a bit ridiculous and the only challenge is having the patience. A lot of people have expressed annoyance with it, myself included :/ I'm a big fan of PSO's system, but having it apply here has various concerns.

 

1 hour ago, Seority said:

Are you sure they are getting nothing? It may not be that extreme rare that they desire, but I'm sure other things are dropping that have some value to them or others that seem to be disregarded because players tunnel vision onto one specific thing. I saw people who complained about not getting Shijin within a few hours of the update and that's not a healthy behavior nor attitude to prop up. Pretty sure if someone wants BiS/ultra rare, they will keep grinding till they get it, 0/5's and 30%s won't cut it.

Now if we slap on a tax (or whatever you call it) to upgrade weak weapons/armor just so they can drop more, means the people whom have a lot of resources will be the ones to achieve these in general, wither that be meseta or available play time. If I get a 0/5 weapon after 100 runs, but I need 300 runs to make it a 0/10, now I'm grinding for a whole different reason, but still locked out of what I want. It's a trade off for sure, but not sure if it's a better one.

From the runs I've done, and from what people have been complaining about for the past 10 months, generally there seems to be a lack of anything or any obvious reward, either at all, or between the point of starting and getting the drop. They might not be getting absolutely nothing, but from a second glance they might not be getting all that much either. If anything, a little more loot overall wouldn't hurt, if not for visual stimulation, then for the sake of circulation. If drops were geared around the idea that people can hunt for what they want but still get items other people want, then they have a chance to go into circulation for the players that do want them. And unfortunately this brings up another point...

Yet another thing I ended up stripping from my original post was that drops often get, or have gotten, balanced around "how many are in game" and "how many people are/were running it". Except the problem with that is, there can be thousands upon thousands of a given material for instance, but the majority of them are on players who don't play, or don't intend to sell them, making them basically nonexistent to circulation. This leaves players who need that material with no other option than to hunt it, most likely solo, because everyone else is hunting some other item. They will likely never find it with relative ease because it was rated around the idea that there's 5,000 in game, when really only 20 are in circulation for insane prices, and someone with Meseta is buying and flipping them for more. It can be made worse by the fact that you can only find some of these items in certain missions, and other items in other missions.

In the case of Shijin, I think it was more a violation of nostalgia, and compensating for a problem that was earlier introduced by making the board overly rare. If people want the very best it's ever going to be, say 50%, then sure they can keep hunting. But anything like 30% can go on the market, the same with any damaged weapons people don't want. They're there if people want to buy and repair them, of course. It's the same reason people argued that broken weapons make the market healthy. A 30% 0/5 is going to sell for a lot less than a 40~50% 10/10, because it needs time and effort, but it's a measurable time and effort instead of RNG. I.E, I'm going to get my 40~50% 10/10 in X amount of runs or less VS I'm going to get a 40~50% drop eventually, right? ...right?

I wouldn't call it a tax so much as it's the GC you get for running regardless and recycling fodder drops. One way or another, you're getting a measurable reward, and you can say "If I run for one hour, I will at least get..." instead of "If I run for one hour, I might get..."

For the market, it's the same concept as buying used junk off of Ebay, repairing it, and then flipping it for a profit.

Generally, regardless of how it goes, the people that have time and resources will always fair better off, but for players that can't play for more than 1 or 2 hours a day, then they're still getting GC as a measurable reward for effort, which they can put toward their equipment if they ever feel like they're behind, or just simply want flip the market for a profit, and catch up. At the end of the day, it comes down to options. When the only option is to run the same mission an unhealthy amount of times, then I can't help but feel like something needs to change. I would argue that it's a healthier trade off, simply because it turns "X item in maybe X time" into "X item in X time or less"

Well, that's my reasoning behind it anyway, sorry I'm like a broken record. Admittedly a little typed out the last few days lmao. I just think it adds a bit more depth to everything, but I can see the overall concerns, and I'll reconsider some solutions.

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This is a step in the right direction. I am very pleased to see this!! I still think the grinding rates are a bit too high, it needs to be toned down by at least 5% across all boards. I also think that weapons should be able to break lower than x/8. However it is a step towards a brighter future. 15/15 weapons sounds like a dream come true but the existence of infinity grinders still disgusts me. I really wish infinity grinders had an insanely high drop rate that was twice as higher than any weapon that will drop in the future. Making them tradable with an crazy high drop rate could lead to a meseta sink I believe. Or make a board for it insanely high so that the mat and board would take out more meseta from the game. Although, with grinding being so easy, there would be no point in buying such an item. Maybe just take infinity grinders out entirely because of grinding being easy anyways. People post 10/10 so frequently on #Clem-flex that it isn't even a flex anymore. Just a basic achievement that each player should easily have.

Realistically x/8 weapons will not affect the market price too much when grinding is still relatively easy.

Don't really want to go around saying I told you so but, I told everyone of what would happen with a ton of charts. Everyone laughed at me like I was some sort of clown. 🤡

I think the real challenge mode would be the ability to make an ironman. No trading, no shop, and no picking up dropped items from other players. These players could have red names too. 

I also want to throw out there the GAS upgrade to reduce a S rank weapon to A rank. This would be amazing for non master class players like myself. 

As of right now I cannot put too much opinion into the destruction of my market and gameplay. This post is a little bit of hope for me. Hopefully the other people who have quit will feel the same.

Thank you for all of your hard work Marm! 

Edited by Ronald Mcdonald
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11 hours ago, Marmalade said:

I know people hate the idea of weapons breaking, and the general consensus seems to be that it shouldn't ever return. I don't have a solid answer on it yet, but it may be possible to turn the Repair Grind option into a Prototype option, giving players the ability to turn a weapon into a Prototype for GC. However I'm still curious on why people dislike the idea of weapons dropping at 0/8. Most of the answers just seem to be "no", without any reasoning.

Well I'll give you one less flat "no" answer and actually try to relate why I feel it shouldn't be done.

 

The short version: It adds a process that doesn't need to be there in the first place.

 

The idea in itself reeks of trying to validate a feature in a NPC we don't necessarily need. In fact I think we don't need it at all, because weapons breaking is also an extension of the weapon upgrading process that doesn't need to be there. You get the weapon you're after, but oh hey it's at 0/8. Now you have to spend resources (whether you grind it up normally or use the upgrade machine) to get it to 8/8. Now you have to repair it. Now you grind it again... except it fails and breaks. Oops! Now instead of being 9/9 we're back down to x/8. See where this can go? Even if you make the odds small there are people that are just that unlucky. Your ideas here are inflating an already lengthy, costly, and tedious process by adding more steps to said process, but at the same time you say you want to make things better. The 0/8 drop idea and weapon breakage go against you saying you want things to be better. So... which do you want to do? Actually make things better by trimming the fat from a dated, horrible upgrade system, or inflate it and add more tedium?

 

I mean I get that the 0/8 drop idea is tied to another problem... but that's just "solving" (I say that in quotes because I don't know if it actually well solve a problem) one problem while creating another problem elsewhere.

 

Now the idea of being able to turn a weapon into a prototype with GC? That's an ace idea. It gives those who aren't lucky like that a way to get in on it, too. I support that ideal wholeheartedly.

Edited by ScarletMel
Adding words words words.
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Honestly the problem with grinding taking so long, the problem with the market, and grinding in general can all be easily fixed. It doesn't need to be a huge discussion that needs a ton of input. This does not need to be a huge chore for you Marm. Just make grinding back to normal and make weapon repairs dropable. Why make a complex system for something that could just be reverted and simplified. Grind repairs can be made easy to get so that people are satisfied.

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We can admit that there is a lot of 10/10 in pallets, and a lot of 7-8/10. It did not completely kill the grinder market however, not really : on the contrary, when we are certain that it will eventually work and without too much frustration, it motivates to invest. 

That said, maybe the good balance is something like that :

1) Thing can drop at 0/8 or 0/6 w/e (like after 100 runs, +20% for that juicy cursed dark flow)

2) Then it drop : I know I have like 8-10 runs to do (seems reasonable SINCE it wont necessary drop that low anyway) to earn enough GC for one repair (let's dump grinder repair for now since upgrade device thing, or maybe for a money sink idk)

3) Then I can try grinding it to 10, with a VERY SMALL % (maybe 3-4, since you need to 10, it will happen time to time...) of the total going down each attempt (to avoid as much frustration as possible BUT keep The Upgrade Device relevant and maybe grinder repair item as money sink)

4) Grinders from +1 to +6 can now be bought : this allow to everyone to have a fixed price for the grinders and therefore to avoid fluctuations/market manipulating (plus another way to money sink) BUT higher grinders +7/+10 must be made (with an increased price for grinder S board if no grinder repair, otherwise they are both money sink and no increase for board S then) and have a slightly higher chance of succes grind than what they have now. This, basically is the "everyone has a luck to "win" without playing a lot" but keep sens for nolife to be nolife (able to invest more easily in better grinders, repair, etc)

5) WHAT ABOUT when you reached 10/10, you CAN turn your weapon into a proto, like unlocking the weapon potential. So it give everyone a motivation for grinding, avoid RNG too much, its like a "reward" (but to go 15 you have to use these new type of grinders, or that new currency idk, but no fail, just farm and free custom)

The key (maybe ?) is trying to find a balance point between money sink/everyone must win/but its more easier for nolife since nolife(and its ok since not a race)/keeping purpose of every future system/a fair economy/various concerns/RNGbutnotlike100%isRNG.

Edited by Aelphasy
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4 hours ago, Ronald Mcdonald said:

I still think the grinding rates are a bit too high, it needs to be toned down by at least 5% across all boards.

People post 10/10 so frequently on #Clem-flex that it isn't even a flex anymore. Just a basic achievement that each player should easily have.

grinding can already take hours because of bad RNG, and you want it to be *harder*???

observation bias is ruining any point you're trying to make about seeing 10/10's posted frequently. i guarantee you no one thinks 10/10'ing is "easy"

8 hours ago, Seority said:

What do you think the point of this game is?

i don't understand what that has to do at all with what you quoted. the point i'm making is that making current BiS gear that is not endgame excessively rare isn't interesting or engaging, it's boring and tedious. we are nearing the point where i think it's appropriate for things to be hard to get (S3). but as i've said 1000 times before, if the rates aren't set carefully so people can solo hunt their gear in some fashion (whether it be dropping a 0/8 and GC'ing it up or dropping a proper variant or w/e), people will lose interest and quit again. which is ironic considering the mentality of 'everything must be rare!' is so that people stay interested when in fact it does the precise opposite.


just look at exmover doing 700 runs for ouryu and not dropping one. you know it's going to be outdated in the future, so why bother with such a dumb rate?

i'll be really frank, i've kept clem at arms length for a while now hearing about the changes i've heavily disagreed with (enormously buffed enemy atp/tp, grinding RNG being abysmal, items being excessively rare that were farmable on official, etc). the changes that marm is suggesting spark interest for me enough for me to want to play again. the game is old enough though that if farming doesn't respect my time investment, i'm not going to come back.

Edited by milranduil
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The point here is a feel on what the community is expecting for the future of Clementine. Rare hunting is basically the goal of this game. How easy or hard should that be? 

No one needs best in slot to complete any mission, specially when in a group. However, most people will hunt for BiS because that's the point of the game to an extent.

I agree that 700 runs of a 5 min mission (60 hours or so) is a bit much when looking for something that will not be BiS forever, but wouldn't you just trade for one with meseta or gear at that point? For the true BiS, this 60 hours seems fair IMO. Maybe someone gets that item within 100 runs. What then? RNG is like that.

How easy should it be to "beat" this game? It's all a matter of perspective and the best we can all do is understand that compromises have to be made for us to play. Threatening to leave because of x, y, or z doesn't help the server.

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I want to first say thank you for all the hard work you and the team do to keep Clementine running and thank you for taking the time to make this in depth post.  Overall I am very excited for the future.

New player experience being addressed is great.  I think that everything you touched on for the new players will be healthy for their experience with the game.  They should be able to hop in, play, and level up at a decent rate so that they catch up to anyone who has been around on the server for some time now.  I am completely for everything you touched on here.

 

GAS and The Upgrade Device also seem very interesting.  I never got to experience much of this on official.  So the fact that this was once something to be thought maybe not possible, its awesome to see it very well may be a reality in the future.  I am looking forward to seeing what we will be able to do with this.  I think that being able to upgrade a weapon choice into a prototype is a GREAT idea.  

 

As far as grinding goes, I am completely fine with my weapons breaking if I can have an option to repair them.  Grinding, I feel, will always be a hot topic no matter what is done to it.  There will always be people that want it to be the way it was on official, you will have people who want to keep the system we have currently, and you will have people who have other ideas.  I do think that if we go back to weapons breaking that we should not go down the route of having weapons drop x/5 or x/8.  I would rather hunt for something that is rare and guaranteed to drop 0/10, take it to the grinder and try to upgrade it / break it and repair it myself(even if its a tad more common).  Rather than finding the weapon that is x/ whatever and repairing it to go upgrade it and hope is doesn't break so that I have to repair it again.  Just would be an endless loop.  

 

As far as loot and rare drops are concerned, I feel like the only really "tough" rare drops currently are Hyakka and Ouryu.  Hyakka due to it dropping from 1 enemy and any mission that has it only has 1 of that enemy.  But its also a great unit for techers.  Ouryu also, in my opinion, should be pretty rare.  Shijin seems like a fair drop as I have not ran much WB and have found 4 boards and have almost finished my set of the armor.  Its also a very good armor with the combo, every class can use it and as far as I can tell it will be quite some time until it is outclassed.  So I see no issue with how rare these things are.  I do think that down the line with rare drops missions should have more than 1 chase drop in the run.  Or have some other respectable loot in missions that have a "big" drop in them.  This gives people more incentive to run these missions and they aren't just looking for 1 drop.  They have a chance to get some other decent loot while they are looking for the 1 main drop.

Again, I appreciate you Marm and the team for all the work you put into keeping this server going.  PSU has always been my favorite game to play and I never thought it would be a reality to play again years ago when the live servers went down.  I will continue to play Clem no matter the direction we go.  We are all very lucky to have you and a team that has kept it going as long as you have.  

 

=]

 

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How to make psu great again
1.Revert grinding system sitting there for 4 hours is not better than the last system lol 
2.Remove incap or nerf it imo incap is a bad mechanic shouldnt rely on rng for damage get rid of the SE override at least 
3.Revert MAGA and twin pistol debuff why does gm have lv 5 stun and debuffs?
4.Remove quest and boost items or make the weekly a kill any boss 10 times at least 
5.fix beast mode and SUV zoom bug 

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On 8/20/2021 at 11:44 PM, Marmalade said:

Admittedly my gripe with making new players rely on the crafting system is that it kind of isn't fun, and there's nothing in the game to teach you how or why.

...

Attribute Grinders wouldn't get removed if it failed to grind. If they're rare enough, simply losing it to the failure would be harsh enough, I suppose. If breaking remains, then they will likely be 100% success, and will either not remove on failure, or will get removed at random.

...

Balancing around this idea that players might do something is largely why IC ended up being awful for a lot of players, and it's something I think should be avoided. I want the team to strongly consider how something might feel, instead of the number on the screen.

PSU crafting really isn't all that fun. It's fun in a Monster Hunter type game where all components drop off a specific enemy and you craft instantly at 100% and can upgrade a weapon all the way to endgame. In PSU the mats are mostly generic and you need to force-feed your PM till it stops being a useless hunk of metal and the result is only good for one equipment tier. But it's different games and there's drops anyway.

Attribute Grinders working that way sounds exploitable! What happens if I take a low ATP weapon like a machinegun and cram 10 ATP Grinders in, then use +1s to fail and go for another 10 more? It seems difficult to get right. Maybe if it's one and only one customization, and new grinders always overwrite the previous customization...

Balance is a tough one for sure. Situationally things can be easier than official. Multiplicative Deband and Zalure offset enemy HP and ATP, and there's SE override so no matter what level enemies are they can still insta-die in the right quest. Just depends on the right class or party comp. Anything that gets added or changed is a new thing to balance around and there will always be a "too easy" for every "too hard"... 😵

5 hours ago, Seority said:

The point here is a feel on what the community is expecting for the future of Clementine. Rare hunting is basically the goal of this game. How easy or hard should that be?

Part of the issue is the itemization design (which is on Sega somewhat). Sure other rares exist, but if the gap between BiS and everything else is that BiS is pretty much the two next best combined and has a set bonus on top, then everything else is worthless. Arm units look like that right now. For other slots, if I use Crossbows, the only option I have is Goodbye Naval with Shijin + Ouryu. If I go for the next best Crossbow I lose almost 100 ATP. If I go for anything other than Shijin set (e.g. Armas Line), I lose another 100 ATP. I literally can't roll something else and settle for that.

To me running a mission is similar to doing a 10-pull on a gacha banner. You pop 10 boxes open and hope for an SR. Sure there's the featured banner rare but for one, at least some of the remaining 99%+++ of drops needs to not suck. For another, a pity mechanic would at least help to show you're progressing towards something. Even if it's a lazily done "you get a Neudaiz token for clearing S2 and you can exchange 500 tokens to get Ouryu".

Edited by Selphea
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The poll stats are a bit weird, at least the percentages, but currently 113 people have voted, which is probably most of the regulars. 

Right now, the most liked option is: "I like the MP payout being increased by 50%." at 98/113 = ~87%

The least liked option is: "I like the idea of Weapons dropping with lower Max Grind Potential to bolster drops and keep The Upgrade Device relevant." at 53/113 = ~47%

The other 15/60 people either dislike the idea or just don't care.  Would've been nice to know if someone disagrees with the idea as a reference. 🤷‍♀️

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2 hours ago, Seority said:

The least liked option is: "I like the idea of Weapons dropping with lower Max Grind Potential to bolster drops and keep The Upgrade Device relevant." at 53/113 = ~47%

I refrained from voting for that because I (obviously) don't agree with it. Also to point out the glaring problem with such an option... all the elemental features on the Upgrade Device will make it, and keep it, extremely relevant no matter what. I don't understand why they need to mess with weapon drops to do that.

Edited by ScarletMel
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I finally voted, said yes to most but some context to the nos, mostly tl;dr-ing stuff I said eariler:

I like the experience bonus to new characters

I think it should be looked at with a lens of all characters, including returning players a few levels off from cap because of the lack of events and campaigns.

▶ I like the idea of relaxing Mission Level Requirements.
▶ I like that Attack Accuracy affects variance instead of hitting 0.

Explained the no in a previous post.

▶ I like the idea of Prototypes having Max Grind Potential of 15 instead of the current system.
▶ I like the idea of Attribute Grinders to customize my weapon how I want.

Voted yes actually. I like in principle but as previously mentioned, have slight concerns about powercreep and exploits since Attribute Grind and +15 are two power increases gated behind rarity (rarity of +15 drop, difficulty of +15 grind, rarity of attribute grinder)

▶ I like the idea of filling the gap between good and bad items.

No because it revolves around the idea of a single best in slot with an illusion of customization that’s will inevitably end up being “crank it’s DPS up as high as possible”. When a less rare item is designed to be different, like having less ATP but more ATA or EVP or a silly SE like Virus or even a troll stat like MST then there’s a reason to use it and they might be BiS for a different build. Use creativity instead of luck, make lemonade if you get lemons and so on. But if everyone has to use the same thing then I would never stray from the max DPS route.

▶ I like the idea of all Synthesis items having the ability to drop in missions.

Abstained because I can’t say yes or no without more information about how synthing will be rewarding and worthwhile.

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