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A really, really crazy discussion about all of the things.


Marmalade
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What are your overall feelings toward the changes detailed in this post?  

154 members have voted

  1. 1. How do you feel about the Character Progression detailed in this post?

    • I like raising the Level Cap by a full difficulty tier instead of 4~5 levels every update.
      115
    • I like the experience bonus to new characters.
      127
    • I like the removal of enemy tagging requirement.
      126
    • I like the MP requirement for basic types being reduced.
      120
    • I like the MP payout being increased by 50%.
      131
    • I like that Dying no longer reduced clear rank.
      102
    • I like that Limit Break hitboxes are enabled for all levels.
      94
    • I like that all of the clothing is in the clothing store, instead of Exchange MIssions.
      114
    • I like the increase to Rare Enemies and Rare Mission probabilities.
      129
    • I like the removal of the Lobby Restrictions for new players.
      120
    • I like the idea of relaxing Mission Level Requirements.
      83
    • I like that Attack Accuracy affects variance instead of hitting 0.
      113
    • I like the ideas for the Meseta Sink.
      91
    • I like the idea of relaxing Guardians Daily and Weekly Quests.
      121
    • No Comment
      6
  2. 2. How do you feel about the Prototype and Grinding suggestions?

    • I like the idea of using The Upgrade Device for weapon repairs.
      86
    • I like the idea of lowering the chance of Max Grind reduction when failing a Grind.
      81
    • I like the idea of Prototypes having Max Grind Potential of 15 instead of the current system.
      93
    • I like the idea of Attribute Grinders to customize my weapon how I want.
      106
    • No Comment
      25
  3. 3. How do you feel about the approach to Drops in this post?

    • I like the idea of filling the gap between good and bad items.
      114
    • I like the idea of Weapons dropping with lower Max Grind Potential to bolster drops and keep The Upgrade Device relevant.
      71
    • I like the idea of Weapons and Shields dropping with lower Element %, again to bolster drops and increase the chance of items dropping.
      87
    • I like the idea of having an Item Sink in exchange for an alternative currency to use in guaranteed rewards.
      117
    • I like the idea of all Synthesis items having the ability to drop in missions.
      110
    • No Comment
      15


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A lot to digest with numerous ideas to consider and debate.

Reducing early game grind to reach the mid game is wise wether it be Exp or MP.  No one really wants to be taking forever to get past the early game.

Toying with half guard is an idea but really only impacts solo play. I would however approve of removing robots resistance to attacks to make the Incapacitate option less appealing. For the same reason I would consider reducing mizura's ludicrous HP. Half guard enables diverse game play, making Incapacitate the best way to play however does not.

The ATA changes sound fine on paper but if you proceed with this make sure the balance works out. It has still got to have enough variance impact to make Beast not be the best default choice due to high ATP.

Drops overall need to be thought over there is way too much grind when it comes so some items. Take the pretty hearts Club for example :

1) Acquire board by beating the SR drop rate

2) Acquire materials being 2 Photon booster (Rare drops) and 3 Heart key (Rare but likely Acquired long before boosters)

3) Pray the board actually rolls a good % otherwise back to step one or into the upgrade device spending however much to fix the Synth f**k up

4) Actually get this weapon grinded up

For the common average Joe all of this just isn't realistically going to happen. Many other items fall into the same trap or being so rare to capture all the elements that it cannot be a thing? Tl:dr if you want boards to be rarish then stop making Synth mats be so scarce there's a reason synthing was despised.

I won't say much about grinding it's a can of worms with too many varying opinions i'd be happy with a no break/no fail system where for each step you need to use the right grinder 0>1 uses a +1 grinder etc etc but just make acquiring high tier grinders difficult (S+10 can be super rare if you really want). No tedious grinding just getting the grinder sucks but once you have all the ones required it'll take five seconds to grind. I hate grinding and trading so really take my view with a pinch of salt lol.

All the GAS stuff no opinion really more features can only bring more diversity imo.

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Some kind of increased drop chance per number of runs would be cool. Like every 50 runs of the same mission your drop chances go up a certain %. I've literally only played plains overlord s2 since IC ended trying to get 1 photon fluge. I don't mind leveling my PA's doing so but I'm at the point where I only play if I have nothing better to do or I'm watching a movie, it's boring and tedious especially as a solo. I've been grinding demo content for months to craft 1 weapon.

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I'll just outline the subjects w/comments:

 

Level Cap - I like it just being raised a full difficulty.  Sega did it the way they did because they thought people would get bored fast or something, but PSO, although it takes 500 years to get to level 200, always held interest regardless.

Exp bonus to newer players - Anything to help newer players outside of an event to catch up is great.  You hit the nail on the head that it's really tough to catch up and I can definitely see people who have not played before losing interest if they don't have the time to grind all day every day.

Enemy tagging - Perfectly fine keeping tagging removed, especially if you're leaving Tornado Dance distance.  Parties can also split up to complete areas faster.

MP req being reduced for basic classes - Good move, basic classes suck.

MP payout increase - this is fine

Dying doesn't reduce clear rank - also fine, makes a path to a more friendly team environment. 

One thing I wanted to talk about is the accuracy thing.  I made a Human over Beast fighter because I absolutely -loathe- hitting a lot of 0's.  With this removed, I kinda wish I made a Beast instead.   It's not the end of the world and nothing to freak out about, but IDK how people would feel about changing your character race with a price, whether it's casino coins or something else.

Can't say mucht on grinds--most things I never grind past 5 anyway.  I will say that non-fighter weapons dropped significantly in value because weapons can't be broken, but that's it.   Breaking a high value weapon's max grind does suck major ass, it really depends upon the cost to fix.   I can see changing the current way pissing off a lot of players who go hard on grinding.   You'd have to make items a hell of a lot tougher to break if so IMO.

Drops:

Gap fill is cool.  PSO just dropped a lot of random current level loot.  And prices in NPC shops are entirely too high and pointless when you can find them at 1/8 the cost in a player shop.

Weapons with lower max grind dropping - no thanks, no thanks, no thanks!  As for lower element, eh, again it depends upon the cost.  

Alt currency for guaranteed rewards - I like this idea as long as it isn't used as an exclusive way to obtain anything.

Synthesis...at the very least, I'd make PM leveling faster.  Like MEGA faster.  Defgroll etc should just be def+100 at least.  This will also help newer players.  I'm not sure what to say otherwise.  I find it weird that your synth can roll lower but a made drop can roll a higher minimum.  Synthing is more of a chore overall, so it should stay relevant in some way if it's to stay at all.

Meseta: I'd make meseta drops just....better.  Boxes, and enemy drops, especially if the plan is to have meseta required for features in the future.  As it is now, I don't think it scales very well drop-wise.

On lobbies, I like where you're going with this, especially when a lot of people are not online.  But what do you do with all of the other lobbies?  Seeing popular lobbies has been great and has helped me find runs plenty of times.   I'd love to see this expanded upon somehow...

Overall, I would not change anything that would discourage parties.   I guess some people may want some kind of benefit to soloing, but TBH, there are enough locked parties all over the place, and while I understand some people want to solo for various reasons, whether it's interruptions, or just chillin' , but it sucks when there's only like 4 parties at certain times and they're all locked.  

 

I've typed enough for a month.  I enjoy this game a lot, thanks!

 

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Aight so I'mma just address the grinding as that's mainly what I'm worried about. Anything that helps new players is welcome.

Grinding: First, I do support weapons breaking again UNDER THE CONDITION that repairs do not exclusively (preferably not at all) cost meseta. What this does is create a paywall to max out your gear that's largely based on RNG that's even WORSE than what we have now just with extra steps. If this condition is met, I'd like to believe that most people won't mind. For me, it's a deal breaker if I continue playing as hard as I do because I'm not tryna just waste my meseta trying to fix shit to just break it again lmao fuck all that. Now what I DO like is that your weapon won't ALWAYS go 0/9 but instead could go from 8/10 to 5/10 after a break. This is fine and good because a large part of grinding now that's goofy (apart from the meseta dumped into grinders) is the time spent upgrading. I also enjoy prototypes getting more versatility in their use as you can customize your weapon more personally if you choose. Choice is good especially for non meta based players who want to just have fun with it. 15/15 for them also makes their rarity significantly higher which is well, kind of the point of them being rare. So I support it. My main gripe will be with how to obtain upgrade devices being just meseta especially when meseta isn't being moved around like it used it be. 

I also noticed that Limit Breaks are in GAS but also they are attached to class level. Does this mean classes will be able to ADD more Limit Breaks? If so, I think that's neat but I question how powerful it would make certain types like Masterforce lol.

That's all I got for now. Might add more later~

 

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My two cents

I honestly love if the atk accuracy thing is implemented. Of course many things to be considered. Even as gunner hitting 0s can be pain with lasers since soft lock now making mobs recovered from stagger faster. Moreover, fighters would have advantage on lvling low lvl pas as they have no need for 0s and no need to make their pas to have 'sure hit' mechanic anymore. One thing I'm considering about this is that fighter pas have been highly boosted and gunner pas especially lasers are very powerful when reaching lvl 50. I highly suggest to lower some of strike pa mod and 41-50 lasers if this is going to be implemented. Why this suggestion? Variance in formula is just min max substraction after calculated numbers while sure hit means no 0s. Removing 0 has much bigger impact than variance so countermeasures are needed to balance this.

 

SR Drop rate is always a thing to consider and must be rare. However, regarding to this, why not putting individual milestone for guaranteed sr. If record achievement on player room can let number of mission clears added in my room this would be very cool.

Now, how to implement this idea?

Supposedly, this can only work if game can record number of x rank mission done in game (e.g. robotanical garden s2 'clear number' times). Then by reaching certain numbers there would be title reward like finishing robotanical garden 500 times, 1000 times or whatever as long as it doesnt involve stupid rng of NOT DROPPING SR at all.

Now, the item rewarded on this would be 'map name' 'rank' 'sr' .The achieved title would be like 'map name' 'rank' 'persistent hunter' or 'map name' 'rank' 'lurker'. Title name can be whatever fun since it can be flexed XD. Furthermore, title reward also can avoid people abusing this setup since it is only one time reward.

Trickier part is where to trade this. If trade npc does have limit on number of listed trade then this could pose a problem. The only solution is to add more trade npcs.

I HIGHLY hope this could be applied, but also understandable if this can't be done since it seems like too much work.

About GAS list... I'm going to hold my tongue for this one. Several changes on GAS feature makes it hard to guess and calculate (especially bullets lol). There is no clear idea how x feature would increase makes gas discussion seems redundant to argue with.

About upgrade device...

This is a dangerous option if this includes line shields because there are options for adding and changing attribute. Some line shields MUST BE HARD to collect after all.

I highly suggest that resetting attribute must include standard element number. Safe spot is 30%. (e.g 50 fire shijin converted to 30 dark shijin). This would ensure upgrade device are always in high demand, assuming this is tradeable or act as money sink in npc shops.

Overall I'm still clouded on how clem would progress so this is as far as I can point on.

Edited by Lazyguy
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I like a lot of the ideas in this post but the one that hits home to me the most is is the suggested changes to drop rates. For me the idea of getting an ok version of a weapon then grinding my ass off to make it perfect fits me better than just running the same mission over and over till I get a good enough version of the weapon. Also having the prototype weapons still being there would be a good experience.

I imagine it almost like other loot grinder games (without the loot explosions). Having 2 routes to a goal is always better (in my opinion) than one. If RNG is not on my side (it rarely is) then my efforts shouldn’t be completely waisted. Idk much about the Upgrade System mentioned but it sounds like that 2nd option we need. Idk how balanced it is, or how much control y’all can have over it, but if it can be manipulated a way that lower tier items are easier to manipulate and higher tier items are harder to manipulate I think that would be for the best. 
As a force main the Elemental stats don’t effect me much but I can see how running a mission 400-500 times and end up with 1 rear weapon that has 32% Ground would be insanely frustrating. If the item drop rate was increased and you could piece mail your item together to make it “your” perfect version of the weapon that would be awesome.

A suggestion of mine would be having a prototype vender of some sorts that would take a special resource or resources that allowed you to get the weapon you wanted but could not get the drop for. My idea for this is one of 2 ways to achieve this.

Idea 1)

have the item be similar to Megi-Spheres where you can trade up but also down.

C = 1 Proto Shard

B = 5 Proto Shards

A = 1 Proto Cluster

S = 5 Proto Clusters

S2 = 1 Proto Crystal

S3 = 2 Proto Crystal

10 Shards = 1 Cluster

10 Clusters = 1 Crustal

and going downward only has a 70% yield.

Idea 2)

Each weapon can be traded for a recourse version of its self to a special prototype vender ie. I trade an Agito Repca for an Agito Repca shard. I get enough shards and I can trade the prototype vender for a prototype Agito Repca.

Idea 1 Pros and Cons

Pros

 - The number of custom items needed to be made is minimal.

 - People grind and play with there friends on what they want to play.

 - Everyone will be slowly working towards a reward they want in any mission they are playing so people don’t feel like they have to play in one area.

Cons

 - People will be farming these as fast as possible so missions that are longer will be played less.

- Limitations on how many times can be traded at a time may make getting the prototypes to common.

Idea 2 Pros and Cons

Pros

 - Mission locations for specific times are still relevant

Cons

 - The amount of custom items needed to be crated for it is = to the number of weapons in the game.

Overall I am a fan of being able to grinding towards any goal you have in a game. The idea of only achieving something thanks to RNGesus has never sat well with me in games but having a mix of the 2 also exciting. The idea that if I run this 500 or even 1000 times and I will get the time I’m looking for threw effort but there is a chance I could get it before that or I might get something that I could sell or trade or even something I didn’t know I wanted till I have it adds to the excitement. It makes a mind set of well I didn’t get what I wanted this time but if I keep going I know I will get it because there is a finish line.

Edited by ReaperO13
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I like and agree with pretty much everything in the post.

The only thing I don't like too much is how you guys were considering making missions (like IC) longer/raid like(?) to make it challenging. I wasn't a big fan of the IC event because once you know which easter eggs to hit(after 2-3 runs), it becomes tedious. The amount of button hitting/easter egg hunting/walking was not fun at all for me. 

I also just wasn't a fan of the scenery of the area, and the obviously out of place blocks of stone that were put to hide a secret area didn't help either. 

I'd much rather have a shorter mission. It gives much more flexibility, and faster chances to get the clear boxes/rare missions (dopamine hit).

The tower defense idea could be good though.

 

 

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Limit Break hitboxes would be enabled by default without the requirement of Type Level.

This is a great idea. Techers don't have to be at level cap and gain a significant amount of AP to obtain LBs that should be natural. Every techer, beginner or endgame, will appreciate this change. 

 

Adjusting the enemy HP party modifier nonsense.

I’m glad the team is taking steps to making the game a bit more solo friendly. Clementine’s HP values are already close to 30% more than official. S3/S4 mobs are going to be HP sponges lol.

 

Do you like Half Guard (Damage Resistance)? No.  YES

Without Half Guard, the Master types would have no weaknesses. I can understand the frustration of running a mission where enemies resist your main damage type, but that’s one of the main merits of playing hybrids - to effectively bypass enemy resistances. 

There are Half Guard changes on Bosses that have affected hybrid viability greatly compared to official. It would change the game completely if it was put everywhere else.

Half Guard should stay the same because it adds additional flavor to gameplay for the types that have the options to exercise them. Whether intentional or not, it ensures players don’t just bulldoze through content using the same weapons and PAs, but rather have them think about what their type has to offer and using it to their advantage. 

 

Potential Attack Accuracy Changes

This change would be HUGE, especially for fighters. Hitting 0s is one of the worst feelings. Maybe we could get a “test” video to see what it would look like in action? 

 

Guardians Advanced Style and The Upgrade Device

It’s fantastic news that GAS is looking like a reality in the near future, and I’m especially happy to hear that The Upgrade Device is making a return as well. These aspects of the game opens up so much customization for characters, weapons and the overall “gearing-up” process. The return on these features is reassuring for the future of the game. A system where you trade in unwanted rare drops for GC is a great idea too!

 

Grinding

The current grinding system is better than it was on release, but I think sitting at the grinding counter for hours to grind one weapon still isn't what we're looking for.  As many have pointed out already, there's never a right solution that'll make everyone happy. It's nice to get a dialogue started though.

 

Closing the gap between The Best and The Worst - My Thoughts on Drops

I personally never enjoyed blindly grinding for gear. Especially when the equipment I’m hunting for is likely to be “outdated” in a month or two. I think players want “positive feedback” when hunting for items. Something to let them know that their efforts aren’t in vain, which is something you mentioned in your post. 

Positive feedback, even the smallest amount, is one of the main reasons why so many people liked GAMs and the AMP system so much on official. Completing GAMs rewarded you with AMP, an additional currency for rare materials and sub-BiS equipment. And most importantly, you were guaranteed your item of choice after a certain amount of runs. 

The difference between acquiring Shijin on official and acquiring Shijin on Clementine is an example of why people get easily frustrated with drops:

Acquiring Shijin and Ouryu on official required 5000 AMP (4 Dragon Scales and Ouryu itself - 1000 AMP each) and the 4 Swords. It would take you roughly 93 Full runs of Ohtori Encampment S2 to get a Shijin and an Ouryu. Although it would take you some time, you at least knew how many runs you needed and how far along you were at any given time. The visible number of AMP gathered reassures you of your progress.

Acquiring Shijin and Ouryu on Clem requires… well, who knows lol? There is absolutely no positive feedback besides a chance to get another separate rare drop. That doesn’t feel “good”, in my opinion. Adding some sort of system that guarantees (visible) progress while running missions will do wonders for player morale.

The team could introduce something similar to a “global AMP system”. You trade guaranteed currency for materials, grinders, and equipment slightly weaker than current SR "BiS" equipment. Players would have something to aim for in parallel while hunting for rare drops. With the addition of increased drop rates and the implementation of GC through rare drop trade-ins, it would give players the positive feedback they're looking for when playing!

 

Those are my thoughts.  Thanks for giving the community an opportunity to give some input on this. Looking forward to what's to come!

Edited by Giro
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After re-reading it well better, got a mixed opinion about it. For the early game (and overall tbh...) I have feeling that the goal is to make the game even easier than it already is. I understand that people are complaining, but I have this counter example of this 10k ID which hit the lvl cap in a few days. Certainly he played a lot, but at the end of the day isn't it the essence of the game, its DNA, to have the motivation to grow a character over time ? But if it's for the good of the server, then ok. 

I do think, however, a few ideas should be dumped : level req for mission should stay (match with the "grow" feels, avoid powerleveling and capped person with shitty PA/pallet), not sure how revelant removind dying penalty is and that kind of money sink with boost (the first one will probably never be used) sound awful (if I dont get that ultra rare stuff with the 50m I spend for that 200% boost, the frustration is about to be real BUT in another hand, if everyone get that ultra rare stuff just by spending 50m, and since the way is about to make drops easier, then it will definitely kills the market, but thats just a feel based on a theorical view). Better saving money for proto weapon and these new grinders... or a more "enthusiasm" money sink (something not RNG based or not directly at least... maybe allow to convert them into GC, directly bought these new grinders for proto 10+ grind instead of players shop to keep the economy on both ultra rare stuff and regular grinders) edit : adding this to the dump list Do you like Half Guard (Damage Resistance)? No.  YES, Giro's argument is solid, and it goes too far in the direction of simplifying the game too much

Speaking of, both "new" loot and proto system and the grind seems cool, but depend on how its handed. For sure, it seems tedious, especially on how to adjust item sink for exemple (if too many loots, then again market flooding and meseta will only have sens for grinders... and thats maybe, depending on how GC are obtainable for upgrade device, on how easy grind is...) a lot of things are intertwined, I can imagine that for the team it is not easy to do it in the good way.

It's really hard to come up and say "no, it's bad" or "wow crazy" because there are too many elements to make a serious and definitive judgment without testing all that, so I will abstain to say more and hope for the best for this game and this server. As usual, good luck

 

Edited by Aelphasy
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I'm NOT sure attempting to get the communities answers/votes on questions like this, will lead to a resolution. But it still can give useful feedback and pointers.

 

Analogy:

Imagine a game, and the authors have decided to add a 'very easy' or 'very hard' mode, but instead of implementing both, have decided to ask the community, so they only have to implement ONE solution. That doesn't really work, because perhaps 60% vote for 'easy' and 40% vote for 'hard' modes. But whichever way the game now gets implemented/changed, approximately half the gaming population, would be unhappy, and might later leave the gaming community.

I.e. some people like the game to be hard, others easy. Similarly, with many of the other game features.

 

But there are possible solutions. Basically, implement BOTH systems.

 

Examples:

Allow grinding to permanently 'blow up' weapons (keeping the 'I like big challenges' crowd happy), down to say 0/9. But limit the lowest a continually blown up grind weapon can reach, to a value, such as 0/8. I.e. a 7/8 weapon, if the final grind fails, will be a 0/8 NOT 0/7.

Hence casual/easy-mode players, will still be reasonably happy with weapons limited to 8 successful grinds. So it combines a sort of hard mode and easy mode.

 

Similarly, allow the more advanced types (but NOT master*** types), to need little/low or no MP job type prerequisites, making the casual/easy mode players, potentially happy. But leave the Master*** types, with harder type (MP) requirements, so that hard-core players, will still have the challenges/difficulties they seek.

 

Create real super-weapons, that are very rare drops, and so difficult/expensive to obtain, valuable to sell in the shops, and exciting when you get one drop and/or obtain your first one. Hence keeping hard-core (big game grind/time difficulty) players happy.

But also release similar weapons, with slightly different names, which are sort of 80% to 90% as good as the real weapon, but drop rather frequently, and hence are somewhat cheap to buy and/or easy to get by playing the missions which drop them. Hence keeping the casual, easy mode players happy.

This is somewhat already implemented, because some 'A' class weapons, are pretty good, but can't be used by Master*** class types.

I.e. The real (very rare expensive) weapon is called Mega-Nuclear-Blaster, the inferior, cheap/plentiful one is called Megic-nuclic-blastic (Hypothetical example, weapons are NOT suppose to be real game weapons).

 

Other game features (in the opening post), can also potentially be implemented in this sort of 'keep everyone happy' kind of way, but NOT always.

Another example, is to relax the entry level requirements on just SOME missions, but NOT others. So, players who are happy, that low level players might enter, can choose those missions. Whereas players who strongly object to low level players be able to enter their missions, can simply attempt to stick to the missions, with the STRICT/rigid entry requirements.

 

I got the impression, that the original (Sega) PSU, was designed in this way. As they want to maximize the number and length of the subscriptions, so the best way of doing that, is to try to keep as big a percentage of player types as happy as they can.

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Good post! I agree with a lot of it but here's the ones I have comments on.

Quote

The Experience boost for new characters would be raised between 100-200%.
 
This would most likely have an upper limit where the boost ends, instead of it being Max Level minus 15. I don't want people to be carried to cap, but I do want the early game to be smooth.
 
Also, before you panic and scream like most people do when they see numbers, it’s actually not as bad as you might think. Having run the early game a considerable amount of times, even 300% is still abysmally slow, and it still takes multiple hours to hit level 30. It will take many many more to hit 100.

To me 100 to 200% across the board is frankly closer to “as designed”, because PSU frequently had boost events, spotlights, event missions etc. In these missions maybe enemy HP was reduced, EXP was increased, MP payout was huge and so on. Also as mentioned by others on Discord, a level 105 has the same problem as a level 15: they’re stuck soloing and they’re gated out of the content everyone else is doing.

If we’re not going to have events as frequently as Sega’s servers, there does need to be a mechanic to speed up levelling outside of events. I would also prefer if that mechanic moved people from sitting in one levelling spot, because if there’s 4 planets but realistically you’re playing De Ragan Online from 1 to 119 of course you’d be burned out.

Proposed solution: make it a “challenge bonus” rather than a lowbie bonus. As long as you’re below level cap, doing quests at your closest tier unlock gives you a bonus to EXP. That is, if you’re Level 50-54 for instance and do Plains Overlord A, you get no bonus. But if you do Military Subway A, you get a bonus. This solves De Ragan fatigue and honestly 100% to 200% all the way is fast enough to catch up.

One thing to be careful of is there’s a delicate balance between character level, type level, PA level, gear level. If character level shoots too far ahead but the rest can’t keep up it’s still not going to be very fun at endgame.

Quote

Dying would no longer lower the mission's clear ranking.

Agree. Realistically it doesn’t in the first place. There’s Scapes, there’s Moons. The only people it affects are the people stuck soloing Cs and Bs because there’s no one to play with, and they’re too poor to afford Scapes. The penalty of running back and seeing at least 2 load screens and killing the momentum is bad enough (going into area, warping to the last block) -- and I’m saying that even though I don’t foresee myself making new characters at this point! So yes, please do.

Quote

Equipment Title Rewards for reaching a certain level milestone.

For lowbie gearing, the crafting system might be a good way to address that with low impact on the economy. Lowbie crafting mats go straight to the NPC anyway, and lowbie crafting is in a weird place. Some of these boards were good once upon a time, but they’ve been powercreeped hard. There’s a ton of low level boards and mats that no one bothers with because when you’re a lowbie your PM is a complete klutz.

Suggestion: make all Cs and Bs 100% success and 0 waiting time and drastically cut the crafting mats required to craft Cs and Bs. And the title rewards can give boards to introduce players to crafting. Chances are most people will zoom past crafting Cs and Bs anyway.

Quote

Adjusting the enemy HP party modifier nonsense.

Looking at Official and Clem wikis, it looks like the 75% is reversing the enemy HP buff so that their HPs go back to Official levels when you’re soloing. So it’s more like enemies have 100% HP solo, and in a party they have 133% which is a fairly common mechanic in action RPGs like Path of Exile and Diablo.

Agree in principle but I suggest when you write the update on the wiki find a way to write it such that this context is clear.

Quote

Do you like Half Guard? No.

I need to say this but even though I don’t like it, removing it increases DPS and skews things in favor of Master classes which are already strong. Generally I think anything that increases DPS and buffs top tiers needs a very very careful approach.

Quote

Increased Velocity of attacks.

Is this also going to affect enemy attacks? Like are 5 Delp Slami Megids in Castle of Monsters going to fly to you at rocket speed? Same with Vahra’s Diga.

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Another mild attempt at Partner NPC's

Speaking of partner NPCs, buff levelling is tougher than official because there’s no partner NPCs. I do think support players should get some… support. Especially since Megistar makes the old buffs redundant, could the levelling speed of Shifta, Retier, Zodial and Deband be increased?

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Restricted Lobby access really isn’t helping anything

Agree. To me if the destination exists, it exists. Even in real life if I want to Uber to Times Square I don’t need to walk there on foot first to unlock it.

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Supplementary Drops / Item Prices

As above, consider using the crafting system as part of the solution, the foundation is already there after all.

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Relaxing the mission level requirement

I’m inclined to say “no” to this one. One of two things will happen. One is you don’t really pull your weight and get carried. Two is you wade through molasses and would be better off doing the previous difficulty anyway. To reward players that challenge themselves, I honestly think the missions close to your level are a good enough challenge especially since they’ve been buffed compared to Official. As I mentioned above, as long as there’s a boost for that and it encourages people to move from mission to mission every 5 levels for variety I don’t think it’s going to feel all that tedious.

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A funny mechanic called Attack Accuracy

Agree hitting 0s sucks especially for melee, but changing 0s to half damage is going to be quite a big DPS increase and especially on a strong class like Fighmaster, and it devalues ATA which is already a fairly overlooked stat.

I feel like this mechanic should be tested very conservatively at first, like it hits 20% instead of 50%, can flinch but cannot crit (including the JA “crit”), cannot apply SE, cannot knockdown, launch or blow away.

At the same time the ATA multipliers on PAs might need a look, to reach parity with JP. And ATA units like Vijerina Hit and Orpa Hit Charge might need a buff like a +100 ATK so that if misses are still frustrating there’s always an ATA unit route and it won’t suck (as much).

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The Upgrade Device, Weapon Potential, Grinding, Prototypes, Crazy Ideas.

About the +15 idea presented, realistically, the highest damage option is always going to win. Like, if given the choice no one would put PP or MST on their weapon, it’s always going to be a damage stat, so this is a DPS increase / powercreep.  I’m going to sound like a broken record and say since it’s a DPS increase gated behind a lot of time and resource investment it warrants being careful. If S4 ends up being balanced around that level of damage (i.e. monster HPs buffed to match, vets will say they're fine, new players find themselves needing a +15 proto with full Att) we’re going to have the same problem with a huge gap in the playerbase.

With DPS increases, I'm okay with increasing damage on outdated stuff to make them somewhat less outdated. I'm okay with increasing damage specifically on underused stuff like Gravity Strike or Cross Hurricane. Also with increasing damage to very situationally reduce the gap between races, like something Newman-only to increase damage on a niche melee damage weapon like Twin Daggers but not all Striking weapons. But more damage on the top tier, no.

I do have a question about the +15 prototype system. Suppose I dump a bunch of custom grinders into the prototype, raise it’s Att, Ele and whatnot, and then I fail and break the weapon. Does the Att and Ele stay? And does that mean I’m incentivized to fail grinds and keep going until the weapon reaches ridiculous levels? Alternatively, if they don’t stay, does that mean those grinders aren’t all that valuable because realistically it’s going to be very difficult to cram all 15 customizations in without breaking?

Also, could I specifically request that when we get to PA Boost weapons, make sure those don’t have a prototype version?

On another note, I get the sentiment behind wanting rarity, but I don’t think everything should be rare. When S3 unlocks there shouldn’t be a situation where someone’s like “oh crap I didn’t get rare missions for Red Line, I didn’t get the Shijin board, I missed the Beekeeper set, guess I’ll die now”.

In PSO1, if I wanted starter armor, I could farm a common Spirit Garment and turn it into an Aura Field which was very decent for the amount of effort even if it was close to min stat. Similarly in PSO2, at one point the best in slot was Lightstream, but there was also the Schvelle set for welfare and Austere set if you wanted to run Dio Hunar for 300 stones which were again very decent if Persona was stingy. On PSU JP I ran a set of Drill Lines which were a very cheap exchange and yet just about best in slot for what I was going for with Acrotecher. The only thing I would have considered as an upgrade was Red Line. So in a given tier I think there should be an option that’s easy to get and can help players keep up.

And finally I have to ask, is there anything that can be done to make outdated / powercreeped weapons worth grinding? I don’t think it breaks the game if people can get a 10/10 Battlestopper at 100% when it’s still weaker than a 3/10 Twin H44 but it’d be nice to see people running with different weapons instead of the same thing just at different grinds.

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GAS

Hmm it looks like the Block+ skills were folded into Mastery, but that's now 10 points instead of 1 point -- how will that work?

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As for a general challenge, I think it’s worth keeping in mind that sponge-ass enemies aren’t exactly challenging so much as they are frustrating. A fun challenge usually revolves around things like timed events, easter egg hunting, or puzzles to get the mind working. I know there are a lot of people that will scoff and go “lmao TA boring”, but y’know, to each their own.

Somewhat true in theory but for a grindy game where people may be doing this 10 times every night for a month... the puzzle maybe works the first time. After that it becomes drudgery. At some point it's going to be finding a group you can vibe with and sailing through the thing without thinking.

Edited by Selphea
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Thanks for the huge insight!

I like all the ideas to help newer players. Having NPCs for new players to tell them great zones to level and tell them of popular lobbies is a good idea. Learning the menus and items is important too. The most fun part of the game is looking for the big loot and finding the big loot. You can’t do this until you are close to max level.

I honestly don’t like the upgrade device and what it offers to current Clem that much. I don’t mind the current grind system and I prefer this system. I will only grind weapons that are worth my time, meseta, and grinders. I like some features of the upgrade device like guaranteed weapon upgrades and changing elements, but the attribute rate increases and weapon repairs aren’t too helpful as long as we stay on current grind system. I like prototypes in all shapes and forms. The new prototype idea sounds like fun with new grinders and customizing, and the old Protos are real nice too.

Grinding has many options w/ the new upgrade device and new 0/15 prototype ideas. I’d like grinding to stay how it currently is with no max downgrade. This would make the upgrade device have a useless option for repairs, but I like this system currently. Grinding can stay the same and Attribute grinders could be rare and guaranteed to succeed, or Attribute Grinders could be more common and still be difficult to upgrade. I’d vote for attribute grinders being rare and having 100% success since both prototypes and attribute grinders will be tough to find. Also, getting a 10/10 weapon is already tough enough at the moment, so adding a rare prototype for X/15 and rare grinders to max it out will add more loot and luck to find.

For drops, I like very rare items and think some powerful weapons, armors, and units should be very rare (end game). Fighter weapons and elemental armors should have a higher drop rate, so you can find a complete set for all elements. With how many dedicated grinders there are on Clem, Items usually get flooded. Creating more drops to have everyone in decent/good gear to run missions isn’t bad for the server. However, best items that are currently out should be tougher to find and more valuable. End game, I’d like there to be crazy items that no one can get easily, but that’s for the best in game or best custom items.

For events and custom items, feel free to go wild. It is your server, and I like new content. I like PSU for the flow of it. Run at the loot and get the loot. As long as we keep running, we will get a drop even if it’s a very low chance to find. Lastly, I don't care for the nostalgia of how Official PSU operated, I repeat feel free to go wild.

Thanks for all you and the dev/mod team does. This is my favorite game and I'll always be happy to play wherever we go.

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Even reading everyone's comments and going over the post there's alot to take into consideration, but it's interesting to see alot of the points were made about the GC system returning have similar points to my post about reimplementing them which is nice. I'll try to condense everything I have to say to make it easier for everyone to understand my points

  • the GAS system
    Every RACE should have equalized points. Humans and newmans at this point are not what they were on consoles. They all have their SUVs now and stat bonuses, and perform their roles perfectly fine. My only concern is that the grinding issue needs to be resolved immediately because FCP will bring about more frustrations with the system. Also Human/Newman
    SUVs need to be equalized to casts, they're already weaker than them and it's does not alter the game in anyway. Otherwise I really look forward to GAS. 
     
  • Half Guard
    This system was fine, until most enemies were given shield buffs. And enemy HP is through the roof. Specific enemies like bug types that have high HP and shields+half guard is just absurd. I didn't like it in IC and I don't like it now when farming for ashviens. It makes running more time consuming for classes that don't have incapacitate. I really don't see where the whole "Masterclasses are OP" is coming from when they specify only one damage type, only two of them have a incapacitate option, take the most time to unlock, and still have some of the most limited weapon availability in the game currently. In mad beasts S2 it took a full nanobar just to kill a few of those bee's, Not exactly fun. I think the issue with half guard is the buffs being applied to enemies which need to be reconsidered because putting a sword and shield on 50% of all enemies isnt making the game harder, it makes it tedious.
  • Attack accuracy
    This is something I would like to see happen, especially as a beast. I see a lot of comments mention it would either make the game too easy/boring.  And then at the same time I was always told at higher levels, accuracy doesn't matter when your 180, because you would hit anything regardless. This would fix issues like that, It would mean, while yes cast and newman will hit more consistent bullet/melee hits, It would also beast wouldn't suffer missing half their combos because poor game design. Why does being a beast suck at hitting things when its supposed to be the best at melee?
     
  • Drop rate, Meseta Sinks, The Economy
    Having a meseta sink is great, however..
    Starting clementine, there was already a few issues with the economy as is. New server, Most method's of acquiring money was reduced by 50% or much greater, basic items were made more expensive, drops were made even more scarce than official, and their value decreased significantly. As a casual player, this made 9 of my greatest friends quit almost immediately, only 4 returned. but again 3 left later on as they saw not much was changed.
    Having a gold sink is good only when you have your economy established. This lead to a lot of items selling quite expensively, It never really solved the inflation, but rather stimulated it especially when SR's were announced, and prototypes. The rich will keep getting rich, while the poor remained, poor. I feel like the only solution to this was to devalue meseta in its entirety, and focus more on other resources players would need to work for instead of just money.
    If anything i feel like gold bars should be removed. Limiting the amount of money you can carry would keep people from hoarding as badly. Maybe even set an account limit. It would make a person think twice before deciding to buy an item that's 50mil during the current S2 cap. And if items ARE that expensive, it means there's not enough in supply. 
    TL;DR Small community, Less drops, Lower rates, More expensive items, less money earned.
     
  • Dealing with item flooding.
    Item flooding, Existing items losing their value is not always good, which is why the official sell prices were in place as they were, that way players could choose to npc an item they just found and get instantly rewarded for it, while maintaining the price of the item if there were more on the market, it would also delete that existing item. It's both a good and a bad thing, It means items become cheaper, so more people can afford to have the item, and its not as expensive, but also means players have more money, so inflation would correct prices if an item is too rare. Personally if it means a person can find get their item and have what they want at some point I don't mind it at all.
    the issue itself is meseta and what it's used for. I believe the issue is meseta hold's too much value, and there should be other currencies that don't involve player engagement to provide a similar experience. the issue is gauging the other currencies and balancing meseta and everything else involved with it. PSU had alot of decent items that only the player can acquire and was not tradeable through these secondary currencies. the current issue at the moment is that everything is tradeable and nothing is keeping meseta in check or providing an alternative method to dealing meseta. Otherwise, something eventually becomes junk as more difficulties come out and the next best thing is available, so have an excess amount of older items is fine. People don't always use a weapon for its power, Cosmetics > Meta.
     
  • Relaxing the mission level requirement.
    I am both for and against it at the same time, It would give an easier leveling path for techs to be able to go into any difficulty and farm it much like it did in beta, It would also allow me to play with friends that are lower than me, but are decently geared, and one of them even worked hard on their techs, so keeping the AT around would be fun. However I don't like the idea of a low level player joining a high level mission, even if I can carry, I don't encourage it.
    But it would help speed along that slow grind no one wants to remain in.

 

  • Removing the.. penalty for death.
    Better Idea.. Punish the player specifically for dying a lot. The second issue is just megid overall, not everyone has Vijeri / Resist. Making megid resist at 21 by a standard would be nice regardless of it's level.
    RNG death isn't enjoyable, it doesn't make the game harder. just more tedious and makes playing those stages not very enjoyable. the third issue is that turrets target one individual, even if someone else is standing in the turrets range, your getting hit by all the megid bullets or turret shots, there needs to be better synchronization.
     
  • Experience and Progression

I'm all for making the early grind easier as higher difficulties are released and the gap between players will widen, It would be nice to see it at later levels too, and maybe for the daily system, perhaps have a featured quest system that rotates daily/weekly? with special drops, boost exp rates and RDR. Things that are currently missing are things to do during downtime, there's no GBR, and event missions seem to only feature like.. Half missions, There's no bonus stage, and the exchange counter is very basic. There's also no Ohtori Encampment or a Innocent girl replacement, both missions have a lot of EXP, Ohtori gave you AP and rare items starting at C rank, You could get some decent items starting VERY early in Ohtori, It was difficult too with things hitting fairly hard, and enemies were fast. They weren't just push overs either, you had Ethan, Alfred Tyler and Liina, the Vol brothers, Howzer and I.. think Magashi? its been so long I can't remember. Weapons drops were always in abundance, but excessively rare items remained rare, but not impossible either. overall it was a fun mission that may need reintroduction.. But I wouldn't tweak its drops at all. Leave it as official if you have the info for it, but its understandable if you do not. 


The major issue that needs to be addressed though is Class Balance.
Race's are not what they used to be on official.
Humans and Newmans are not what they used to be on official, they've received numerous tweaks and balances to address their weaknesses however there's some puzzling changes I would like to address.
The first is... Why does newman get a bonus to Fighgunner..? I don't disagree with it, but at least give a bonus to Beast/Cast to something besides Hunter and Ranger. especially since their bonus for fighgunner was removed. even as a Beast/Cast, I've strayed away from it's main to opt for other classes that were more melee oriented like FG, AT,AF,WT,GT.  I can understand hybrids not getting a bonus, but I wouldn't consider acro-classes as hybrids, they're clearly either a "acrobatic" fighter class that specializes in dual-wielding/single weapons. while the other is purely a support techer with some whips daggers and guns, but its not WT or GT.

The Second is the fact that most classes have been significantly buffed over the original, and because of it certain classes are starting to far outshine the masterclasses in alot of ways. The issue isn't exactly just the classes.
Tweaks to monsters have further shifted balance in favor of gunner specific classes. GT is a strong class because of how enemies rebalancing were handled. But it's also overshadowing classes like AT, because of it's lvl 40 support increase.
Then shortly after when all it received was a level increase for ranged bullets that doesn't compliment it's attack speed or access to specific melee weapons,
or the fact that it has very high tech damage but is limited by lvl 30 attack techs.
GAS may fix some of the issues some classes are facing but it isn't addressing the issue that sometimes that more power isn't always the right choice.

There's also the issue that not every single PA is out for either techer or melee, so play styles would've been altered by these.
There's been some discussions about PSU being too easy, and there has been changes to address this, these changes hinder some classes but keep other's far too powerful. 
The power limit is so high that there's instances where players are dealing significant amounts of damage well before the 180 cap.
a lot of bullets and techs have been buffed but when it also comes to melee, there's no where near as many tweaks to them even something like
range increase, or changing an attacks property from blow away to hard knockdown so it doesn't disrupt techers or gun users would be nice.
I will say alot of the tech based changes that improve on overall functionality like hitsize/range/hitcount were very welcome, but some of the bullet PA's have clearly shown to have too much influence on some class combinations. I welcome classes improving but not to the point it shifts towards a sort of meta.
This is all alot of work though so I can completely understand with situations like these not being altered yet.
More importantly I feel most class changes should be changed after 180 cap, after a lot of testing has been done and adjusted when everything is out, cause even as a melee users, I still can't understand why fortefighter got a 5% buff awhile back, but not acrofighter.
 

Edited by Lupophobia
typos, I might have to come back and re-read what i posted two more times..
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I feel like the only solution to this was to devalue meseta in its entirety, and focus more on other resources players would need to work for instead of just money.

You can't control the way people play, the time they spend, the "talent" they have at playing effectively, etc. If another resource happened (which will be the case anyway, with GC) the problem would still be the same : there would always be "poor" and "rich", and you will have to "work" on other ressource. And even if all this is dumped (currency, and so economy) the game will remain a HnS type game, with a lot of loot, so... Well... There will "poor pallet people" and "rich pallet people".

But the good news is thats not a race, and no one really care if you spend 2 months to obtain that instead of 2 weeks for another.

Edited by Aelphasy
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LEVEL REQUIREMENTS

Boosting exp rates at lower levels more, along with no tag for exp gain, and lower enemy hp percentages should make early leveling grinding much less painful. Getting rid of the level requirements for missions seems unnecessary and will only bring up more issues than the few it may solve. As stated, people will end up locking their parties to stop low levels from coming in, even if the death penalties are lifted, which would make the server more fragmented and less open to everyone.

GRINDING RESTRUCTURE 

Using resources in hopes to upgrade your weapon just to have it become weaker than it once was is substantially wrong. One shouldn't lose their weapons potential when attempting to make it better. However, it's overly frustrating to have such a low successful grind rate that it takes so many resources and such a long time to do the upgrading. 

Taking away only a few grinds (or none at all) rather than all of them when a grind fails is absolutely fair. Reducing the max grinds at all, is not. Also, raising grind success rates in general would help with these issues.

If there's questions on what to do with the Upgrader if max grinds do not get reduced, the idea of <0/10 weapons dropping can make use of it. Higher drop rates of lower % weapons can coincide with guns/tech items dropping as 0/5's-0/9's. Less than 0/10s shouldn't drop for melee % weapons to keep the RNG fair across all classes and nothing less than 0/5 should drop just like <20% shouldn't drop either.

OVERALL

While I agree with half of the ideas listed and disagree with the other half, I'd have no issues if any of them are or are not implemented, aside from the ones already stated above. Much appreciation on the dedication of the staff and community here. It's so good to see that Clementine is striving to be better. 💖

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Getting rid of the level requirements for missions seems unnecessary and will only bring up more issues than the few it may solve. As stated, people will end up locking their parties to stop low levels from coming in, even if the death penalties are lifted, which would make the server more fragmented and less open to everyone.

With what we saw during the event, it would indeed be even worse and counterproductive by disgusting new players even more. There are people who only want to play with their clique and/or don't want to be "slowed down". It's sad but that's how it is.

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Thanks everyone for giving your feedback so far. I am reading through all of it and I've made some changes to my original post based on some valid points people have raised, and the fact that you've reminded me of some other very cool changes Clem has made in the past. I wasn't able to get to everyone, so sorry about that. Forum ended up trashing my last post, so meh. Energy.

 

16 hours ago, Syncytium said:

Reducing early game grind to reach the mid game is wise wether it be Exp or MP.  No one really wants to be taking forever to get past the early game.

This is my main concern. I don't want to boost players up to 100 in like 2 hours. I think it should take a reasonable amount of time, but it should still be fun. However, I do want the beginning to be enjoyable, particularly for new players coming in. Part of what makes it not fun is the fact that you don't feel like you progress at all, whether it's leveling or just equipment.

 

16 hours ago, Benadryl Cucumber said:

Some kind of increased drop chance per number of runs would be cool. Like every 50 runs of the same mission your drop chances go up a certain %. I've literally only played plains overlord s2 since IC ended trying to get 1 photon fluge. I don't mind leveling my PA's doing so but I'm at the point where I only play if I have nothing better to do or I'm watching a movie, it's boring and tedious especially as a solo. I've been grinding demo content for months to craft 1 weapon.

This is one of the points I ended up stripping out of my original post. Rate Manipulation is something I often bring up or touch on, a lot of games do this behind the players back with the goal being to ensure they don't get stricken with bad luck for too long. However, the illusion kind of falls apart once you realize it's happening, and for the most part every time I bring up such a mechanic, it quickly gets put to bed. I'm still an avid believer of rate manipulation, but whether it will happen or not isn't decided yet. Another form of Rate Manipulation is that the item has a near 100% drop rate for every box break that is equal to it's actual intended rate. If an item was rated at 100/100,000 then it would have a near 100% chance to drop every 1,000 box breaks.

 

13 hours ago, NatePC said:

The only thing I don't like too much is how you guys were considering making missions (like IC) longer/raid like(?) to make it challenging. I wasn't a big fan of the IC event because once you know which easter eggs to hit(after 2-3 runs), it becomes tedious. The amount of button hitting/easter egg hunting/walking was not fun at all for me. 

This may be a minor misunderstanding. The idea of raid missions are there for the people that want to do them, rather than being forced onto people. It's something you would prepare for and group up to do, with the return being actual rewards. IC was supposed to have a Master Mode where the difficulty resided, but sadly it got pushed into S2 where it just wasn't fun. It was supposed to be high reward, but for some reason wasn't, even after the Tickets got introduced. Personally not a fan of forcing difficult content on people, but I do like the idea of a lengthy mission for people that want to do it.

 

12 hours ago, Giro said:

Clementine’s HP values are already close to 30% more than official. S3/S4 mobs are going to be HP sponges lol.

Thanks, you reminded me of another funny change, and ties more into my gripe with Half Guard. Because of that, I've changed my original post to exchange Half Guard for returning the original stats. I would rather make difficult content for the players that want it, than to make the original content difficult and then add more difficult content on top.

 

12 hours ago, Giro said:

The team could introduce something similar to a “global AMP system”. You trade guaranteed currency for materials, grinders, and equipment slightly weaker than current SR "BiS" equipment. Players would have something to aim for in parallel while hunting for rare drops. With the addition of increased drop rates and the implementation of GC through rare drop trade-ins, it would give players the positive feedback they're looking for when playing!

This is something we're considering with the whole Item Ticket thing, where you could exchange them for useful equipment, just not the latest equipment or BiS. I don't mind the idea of a global AMP system, but there's no real way to track this over all missions. If the GC Shop could somehow be restored then it might be possible to have GC be used for purchasing those items. Right now the only real currency is Meseta, and whatever exchange mission that can be fluffed for item exchange.

 

11 hours ago, Aelphasy said:

I do think, however, a few ideas should be dumped : level req for mission should stay (match with the "grow" feels, avoid powerleveling and capped person with shitty PA/pallet)

Something that I do want to avoid is having there be level 100's that don't know how to heal or use a Moon Atomizer. Generally speaking, my concern is only with the early game, say 1-50, but as others have pointed out there is still also the problem of players that are a few levels under the cap and can't join anyone else still. I suppose the best approach for something like this, if it's to happen, would to just allow players to enter a tier higher or so, or to fluff their level so they can enter 1 tier higher. Although, if it was to be fully open and we take a level 1 into S2, I think the Experience and MP should have a ceiling to at least limit how fast they get to 50, and avoid rare mission power levelling.

I would go down the route of a levelling mission for newbies, but it feels a little too TTF for me. Maybe something up to B or A, but I also don't want to spoil players so hard that they notice the drop in progress. It absolutely should be a smooth experience getting into the game, and catching up. Levelling speed isn't a major issue so much as it's just boring. There's no real sense of progression.

 

10 hours ago, Selphea said:

One thing to be careful of is there’s a delicate balance between character level, type level, PA level, gear level. If character level shoots too far ahead but the rest can’t keep up it’s still not going to be very fun at endgame.

This is already somewhat a problem with PA levelling, at least on Ranger. Every time I tested levelling as a Ranger, my bullet always levelled so fast that my starting rifle and pistol couldn't keep up, PP wise. I'm not entirely sure what the remedy for this is, but Supplementary Drops has definitely helped to equip me, and give me options while my weapons recharge.

 

10 hours ago, Selphea said:

For lowbie gearing, the crafting system might be a good way to address that with low impact on the economy. Lowbie crafting mats go straight to the NPC anyway, and lowbie crafting is in a weird place. Some of these boards were good once upon a time, but they’ve been powercreeped hard. There’s a ton of low level boards and mats that no one bothers with because when you’re a lowbie your PM is a complete klutz.

Suggestion: make all Cs and Bs 100% success and 0 waiting time and drastically cut the crafting mats required to craft Cs and Bs. And the title rewards can give boards to introduce players to crafting. Chances are most people will zoom past crafting Cs and Bs anyway.

The Title rewards are most likely going to be dumped, mostly because the Supplementary Drops solved the issue of getting equipped. Admittedly my gripe with making new players rely on the crafting system is that it kind of isn't fun, and there's nothing in the game to teach you how or why. The introduction of crafting should be optional from start to finish, but I think it's one of those things I'd rather introduce later, rather than overwhelming the player immediately.

On the flip side, if it was to be options alongside simply finding loot, then I wouldn't mind. If I got my friends to play, I could at least tell them "Buy these things and go make this, it'll help you a lot", and it's all good. When it's required to progress though... eh. Get's into forced playstyle territory, which I'm against. There's a certain pleasure to be gained from finding items and equipment that are a bit better than your current gear, at least early on.

 

10 hours ago, Selphea said:

Is this also going to affect enemy attacks? Like are 5 Delp Slami Megids in Castle of Monsters going to fly to you at rocket speed? Same with Vahra’s Diga.

Nope. Only player to enemy is affected!

 

10 hours ago, Selphea said:

I do have a question about the +15 prototype system. Suppose I dump a bunch of custom grinders into the prototype, raise it’s Att, Ele and whatnot, and then I fail and break the weapon. Does the Att and Ele stay? And does that mean I’m incentivized to fail grinds and keep going until the weapon reaches ridiculous levels? Alternatively, if they don’t stay, does that mean those grinders aren’t all that valuable because realistically it’s going to be very difficult to cram all 15 customizations in without breaking?

The general consensus seems to be that weapon breaking is still bad, even if it's become a lot less common, or is repairable. Because of that, Attribute Grinders wouldn't get removed if it failed to grind. If they're rare enough, simply losing it to the failure would be harsh enough, I suppose. If breaking remains, then they will likely be 100% success, and will either not remove on failure, or will get removed at random.

 

10 hours ago, Selphea said:

About the +15 idea presented, realistically, the highest damage option is always going to win. Like, if given the choice no one would put PP or MST on their weapon, it’s always going to be a damage stat, so this is a DPS increase / powercreep.  I’m going to sound like a broken record and say since it’s a DPS increase gated behind a lot of time and resource investment it warrants being careful. If S4 ends up being balanced around that level of damage (i.e. monster HPs buffed to match, vets will say they're fine, new players find themselves needing a +15 proto with full Att) we’re going to have the same problem with a huge gap in the playerbase.

My examples might not have been the best, but for various stat enhancements toward your character, people might opt for ATA, CHR, or Status Effect override. etc. As for damage creeping, to be honest I don't think the overall difference between a 10/10 and 15/15 even with a stack full of ATP grinders should introduce enough of a difference that 10/10's become useless. It should only be enough for the weapon to feel nice, even if the boost in damage is small.

As for balancing S4 around Protos, this is another one of the points I ended up stripping from my original post. Having things be balanced around the spreadsheet numbers instead of overall feeling is a trap that things keep falling into. Balancing around this idea that players might do something is largely why IC ended up being awful for a lot of players, and it's something I think should be avoided. I want the team to strongly consider how something might feel, instead of the number on the screen. Feel is important, it's what makes things fun and fluid. I would be disappointed if things were balanced around the idea that players might have a maxed weapon.

 

11 hours ago, Adooma said:

Imagine a game, and the authors have decided to add a 'very easy' or 'very hard' mode, but instead of implementing both, have decided to ask the community, so they only have to implement ONE solution. That doesn't really work, because perhaps 60% vote for 'easy' and 40% vote for 'hard' modes. But whichever way the game now gets implemented/changed, approximately half the gaming population, would be unhappy, and might later leave the gaming community.

I.e. some people like the game to be hard, others easy. Similarly, with many of the other game features.

This is something that is entirely possible, but it gets somewhat strange when the difficult content doesn't have an easy mode. If there's a mission that has a hard and easy mode, but they both give the same reward, then it's kind of pointless. On the flip side, if the hard mode version rewards more, then people start complaining that it's unfair and shouldn't punish the player.

That being said, I would rather the current content wasn't made difficult, and instead we made missions geared toward players that enjoy the challenge without forcing it onto everyone.

 

11 hours ago, Adooma said:

But also release similar weapons, with slightly different names, which are sort of 80% to 90% as good as the real weapon, but drop rather frequently, and hence are somewhat cheap to buy and/or easy to get by playing the missions which drop them. Hence keeping the casual, easy mode players happy.

This is essentially the purpose of items dropping with lower percentages, and 0/8 instead of 0/10. There's not enough room to make duplicates of sought after items either.
The item depth is already there, it just needs to be used. When items are geared toward the idea that it will always be the best version of itself, then we start getting ridiculous drop rates because it might be too strong, so it should be hard to get. Except most players that want to go casual and easy would settle for a lower percent and lesser grind, with the trade off being that you can work toward the better version at a measurable and guaranteed pace. 

Essentially it's this:

  • Common: 499 Runs, Nothing at all
  • Rare: 500 Runs, 1x 40~50% Maybe

VS this:

  • Common: 200 Runs, 20% 0/5
  • Uncommon: 300 Runs, 30% 0/8
  • Rare: 500 Runs, 50% 0/10

All the while, you're gaining GC for running the mission.

---

I know people hate the idea of weapons breaking, and the general consensus seems to be that it shouldn't ever return. I don't have a solid answer on it yet, but it may be possible to turn the Repair Grind option into a Prototype option, giving players the ability to turn a weapon into a Prototype for GC. However I'm still curious on why people dislike the idea of weapons dropping at 0/8. Most of the answers just seem to be "no", without any reasoning.

The idea behind it is that the GC you get running the mission and hunting the item can go into fixing it at The Upgrade Device, if you want. In turn, the item you want becomes more common with the exchange being that you put time into something else, instead of the same mission all week. If you don't plan on using the weapon then you can sell it on the market, or fodder exchange it for GC to put toward things you do want. I know it's probably underwhelming to get the item you want and it's gimped by something like that, but at the same time, is it really that much worse than getting nothing at all for 500 runs?

If you were going to get your item on run 500 regardless, then is there any real downside to getting a lesser, but repairable version on run 100, 200, 300, and 400? My fear is that people may have misunderstood the purpose of it, that's all. But if people are really against it, then I'll reconsider it for sure!

 

Thanks to everyone for taking the time to give feedback. I am reading it all, and I'll try to keep everyone's concerns in mind. With ATA, Mission Level Req, and anything that hurts the overall feel, I understand and will tread carefully.

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Assuming that all the posts in this thread will be read, I will attempt to make my feedback concise, and bolded when needed, in order to make things easier to read. I also will try limiting the coverage of questions posed through the survey/poll. For starters though, however, I’m really glad to hear there’s a change of pace going forward in response to the state of the game currently. also you sound r/pained, are you okay omg??

 

“Experience and Progression”
Everything is fine here. As you said the early game right now is impossible to recommend to any player familiar with PSU, let alone anyone who is new to it. Having experienced this first-hand with several friends, a rework like this was long overdue. I would like to give my feedback on a few things specifically, however:

  • I would prefer to see content released in whole difficulty tiers, personally. If we just released everything at once, many gear tiers would just be skipped/not exist. This isn’t necessarily a bad thing, but just something to think about. Drip feeding still, but just not nearly as bad as right now.
     
  • I would prefer basic types to be removed. At best, they teach players how types and MP works, I guess, but any other class can do that. At worst, it just sets the player back once they hit B-rank and is an unnecessary hurdle to start trying the class you actually want to play. The latter goes for early and late game players. To counter the potential issue of information/option overload, more emphasis should be put on making it clear what each class specializes in, generally speaking. 
     
  • If you plan on increasing the early game EXP, encouraging players to switch classes more often through removal of basic types, and therefore trying more things, you MUST compensate with a PA exp rate increase for Levels 1~21, in my opinion. This one is super important. You don’t want the player to hit a sudden mountain during their progression and expose them to the not-so-fun experience of leveling PAs because most of their PAs, god forbid not all, are still sub level 21 once they hit A-rank or something. I have had a friend quit entirely because of this, and my GF is very uninterested in the game right now due to it. Not being able to get the bare minimum for a PA to be functional and/or fun quickly actively discourages the player from doing any type of experimentation and just makes the early game have a bunch of stressful decision-making. I know PA rates are a contentious topic, but please look at this one.
    • Heavily Opinionated Addendum: I think bullets and techs in general, even beyond 21, need to be cut in half, if not divided by 4. Spending hours not really playing the game is quite unfun. The PA boost we got during IC actually made leveling things not a complete pain in the ass.
       
  • Lastly, I would like to see more weapons and PAs given to the player on start. I’m not asking for super good weapons, every bullet element, etc. However, I am asking to give the player a better taste of what their class and related classes can do from the get-go. First impressions are very important, and I have frequently seen people just hop between the different archetypes because they’re painfully boring on startup, then they end up lost until they invest X amount of hours. The X amount of hours is usually too much for anxiety to not be induced or for the player to just stop playing.
    (For more info, very good video by Josh Strife Hayes on this very topic. Different game; same idea)

 

 

“To escape the slug, we must confront the slug.”
This. All of this. Especially getting Partner NPCs working. Let’s be real, this isn’t the booming game it used to be like in 2008. That being said, in order to prevent the player from getting obliterated and overrun by mobs, if they’re anything besides a melee char, it would be nice to have some meat-shield NPCs. Honestly though, the changes to solo mob stat scaling will hopefully mitigate this issue a bit until you all get something working. I will come back to mob HP later though, indirectly, as that’s a concern, somewhat.

 

“A funny mechanic called Attack Accuracy”
No real issues with this. I’d rather deal with variance than just missing and completely fucking up my flow. Main reason I stopped playing melee. This would also make beasts infinitely more appealing before the endgame.

 

“Very helpful NPCs that hold nothing but the knowledge”
This is a very immersive idea, and I really like it, but I think people will miss these NPCs, funnily enough. I feel that giving a text pop-up when the character first spawns in that there’s an NPC on the 5th floor with “all the info you could ever need!” would be a more preferable alternative. Also, if possible, adding a variation of that NPC and a type change NPC to every GUARDIANS branch would be beautiful. I mean, aren’t those branches there to help and give information to GUARDIANS? Right now, they’re just a glorified mission counter. You can also add the tutorial missions, if you make them, to this counter.

 

“Guardians Advanced Styles”
A lot to go over here, so I’ll start with the simple one.

  • I would like to see all limit break types given to every tech casting class. Crazy, but I feel techs just do not feel good without limit break, even beyond damage numbers. The thing that makes me choose whichever tech class I want to pick should be what they specialize in, if they have animation speed increases, stat scaling values, and weapon choice. Playing Masterforce like a pyromaniac Fighmaster and spamming Gifoie in mob packs that can 3 shot me, with some of the lowest HP scaling in the game mind you, seems a bit off. I’d like to use each tech type when it’s optimal, and hopefully encourage varied approaches to encounters between different Masterforces. One MF may be more aggressive and use Gi-techs, while the other is more passive and uses Ra-techs. Just an example. This would also open more options to Acrotecher and Co. Like, holy shit, Acrotecher needs this really badly. At minimum, I’d like to see the hit restriction and hit count additions added globally. I can live without the direct damage increases.
     
  • Remove Full Custom Power (FCP) or adjust its power. This is the dominant strategy. Always has been; always will be. This is a free 10-20% damage with zero catch besides slaving away at grinding. Furthermore, this also pretty much forces the player to 10/10 their weapon, dealing with that RNG nonsense, in order to compete. At worst, it makes anything that is not 0 or 10/10 useless. At the moment, I prefer 10/10 being a nice bonus for the minmaxing players that want to deal with that, but it’s not mandatory to keep up still. Lastly, due to this being the dominant strategy, even more so with how grinding is on Clem, the other options will never be looked at ever again. How do I know this? PSPo2/i had this ability and you took it every time. Free, 1 point, and gives 4% damage, if memory serves. (Edit: Also, contributes to players being stupidly strong in the endgame)
     
  • Revenge Blaster. Figure out a way to make the player unhealable by other sources outside of themselves when this is an active GAS ability, or I feel this’ll get really toxic really quickly.

“Weapon Potential. Grinding and Prototypes”

  • I’ll start with the cool part first. I’m definitely for the prototype change. Only thing, however, is I’d say make grinds 11-15 solely for the attribute grinders and make it guaranteed, that’s it.
     
  • I don’t really think grinding should be changed to what was proposed. This straight up just sounds extremely tedious. Most people already hated the old grinding system, and this just makes it even more obnoxious, but just in a different way. With this, it becomes very micromanagey. This was obviously a band-aid fix to a flawed grinding system that Sega made. Typically band-aid fixes are shit, and this is SEGA we’re talking about, so it’s extra shitty. This is no different. Keep the grinding as is or make it a guaranteed, simple meseta sink like PSPo2/i. We need more of those right? Here’s a good one. If FCP is looked at, I don’t think this will really be an issue. 


Closing
Firstly, I just want to say once again how happy I am that things are being looked at. I like this game quite a bit, and it has been very saddening to see it just slowly fade out of existence with no word on what’s to be done about it. I want to be able to have fun myself, but also be able to recommend this game to others so that it can be a lively one. This level of experimentation, suggestions, etc is what was really missing from this server. This is 2021, not 2006, so I feel this game needs to be tweaked a bit to make it a bit more playable with the times. Open discussion like this is much appreciated and welcomed. As always, I’m eager to read responses to, and hear thoughts on, another one of my large posts.

 

Sending HUGE hugs to the entire dev team. Keep on keeping on <3
 

Edited by Amaryllis
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58 minutes ago, Marmalade said:

Thanks, you reminded me of another funny change, and ties more into my gripe with Half Guard. Because of that, I've changed my original post to exchange Half Guard for returning the original stats. I would rather make difficult content for the players that want it, than to make the original content difficult and then add more difficult content on top.

So... if I've got this right, enemy HP will be reduced by about 30% across the board ('returning the original stats'), and then further reduced by 25% while playing solo? Basically meaning that after this patch, enemies will only have about half the HP they used to while soloing? Is this correct?

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1 hour ago, Marmalade said:

Thanks, you reminded me of another funny change, and ties more into my gripe with Half Guard. Because of that, I've changed my original post to exchange Half Guard for returning the original stats. I would rather make difficult content for the players that want it, than to make the original content difficult and then add more difficult content on top.

The problem with returning original stats is you are going to have to add the original damage formula to compensate back or you are going to have problems with some enemies reducing damage by 70% and such with the current formula. Kyu instead froze the def so the % reduction doesn't play in and raised the hp. So enemies are having more hp but we do more to compensate. The attack can be toned down though I can agree with that.

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4 minutes ago, Zeta said:

So... if I've got this right, enemy HP will be reduced by about 30% across the board ('returning the original stats'), and then further reduced by 25% while playing solo? Basically meaning that after this patch, enemies will only have about half the HP they used to while soloing? Is this correct?

Depending on how it all balances out, the solo modifier might have to be dumped or have less of a reduction. The combat progression with 75% as it currently had made solo really smooth and fun, but if the stats go back to how they originally were then it will need to be readjusted accordingly!

2 minutes ago, Coast said:

The problem with returning original stats is you are going to have to add the original damage formula to compensate back or you are going to have problems with some enemies reducing damage by 70% and such with the current formula. Kyu instead froze the def so the % reduction doesn't play in and raised the hp. So enemies are having more hp but we do more to compensate. The attack can be toned down though I can agree with that.

My soul burns in a way I've never felt before.

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How about, instead of an removing, and diminishing the starter classes, they get a complete overhaul in terms of equipment availability. Like very similar to their offline counterparts, with some tweaks and changes by default their offline PA levels are 30 for all PAs. honestly each class is very versatile and offer something that other classes don't usually have or just simply have their rarities bumped by +1 they don't focus on one thing in particular as they're more of a class that's well suited for any player, allowing for freedom of use and  versatility. Maybe like Acrofighter 2.0 Acrogunner and Acrotecher 2.0?  the only draw back would be the PA level. and overall damage wouldn't be better than AF. but due to their weapon availability and rarity, and maybe speed, then have character creation start with the basic/advance/hybrid classes so you can get players into what they want to play sooner while also reintroducing classes that for whatever reason are worse than their offline counterparts.
Just make the bonus for human 10% and the other races have a bonus of 15%~20% depending on racial benefit. (which is a messy fix btw. but it allows for better growth if people do decide to start with this.)
Maybe this class's unique bonus is having bonus to using B rank weapons, perhaps performing similar to the best A ranks. it would make the class shine very early on if players decide to pick this as a starter class for character creation and ultimately stay with it in the end.

think of it like Vangaurd in PSP2 except with variation

Braver
Vanguard
Bouncer (sorry i know the PSO2 naming is cringe. i'll see myself out)

Edited by Lupophobia
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56 minutes ago, Zeta said:

So... if I've got this right, enemy HP will be reduced by about 30% across the board ('returning the original stats'), and then further reduced by 25% while playing solo? Basically meaning that after this patch, enemies will only have about half the HP they used to while soloing? Is this correct?

ATP is also inflated by like 60-70% at 165, at this current curve S3s and S4s are going to be a one shot machine. I'm aware of the DFP/MST being stalled at level 100 and up or whatever it is. The ATP and TP (though the TP is only like 20% higher) is simply too high.

 

I personally don't mind them having more HP (though less is welcomed) just don't like the whole dying in 2-3 hits with BiS 45%+ armor and level cap with all the bells and whistles. Seems a bit cheap.

Edited by KanameChidori
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36 minutes ago, Marmalade said:

Depending on how it all balances out, the solo modifier might have to be dumped or have less of a reduction. The combat progression with 75% as it currently had made solo really smooth and fun, but if the stats go back to how they originally were then it will need to be readjusted accordingly!

I get the feeling that your definition of fun is a lot different from mine. I don't want my adventures to be 'smooth'. When I enter a new stage on a new difficulty and get bodied, my eyes light up with excitement because I now have a new challenge to overcome, and it's time to level up, grab better gear, think over my loadout and eventually master the stage to the point I'm working on clear times, rather than just 'completing it without dying'. And I don't want this experience to be confined to a few specially defined challenge missions.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like you want this game to be a more casual experience overall - one where new players can hop in, swiftly get past the early game, and expect to go through normal missions without much struggle. I can understand why you'd want this but I don't think it's for me.

As it stands I think I'll be departing Clementine after this patch goes live, but I'll hang around long enough to see exactly what happens. Who knows, maybe S3/S4 will be engaging/challenging enough to keep my interest anyway.

Either way, thanks for all the good times until now, and good luck with the server.

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Quote
  • Common: 200 Runs, 20% 0/5
  • Uncommon: 300 Runs, 30% 0/8
  • Rare: 500 Runs, 50% 0/10

All the while, you're gaining GC for running the mission.

---

I know people hate the idea of weapons breaking, and the general consensus seems to be that it shouldn't ever return. I don't have a solid answer on it yet, but it may be possible to turn the Repair Grind option into a Prototype option, giving players the ability to turn a weapon into a Prototype for GC. However I'm still curious on why people dislike the idea of weapons dropping at 0/8. Most of the answers just seem to be "no", without any reasoning.

The idea behind it is that the GC you get running the mission and hunting the item can go into fixing it at The Upgrade Device, if you want. In turn, the item you want becomes more common with the exchange being that you put time into something else, instead of the same mission all week. If you don't plan on using the weapon then you can sell it on the market, or fodder exchange it for GC to put toward things you do want. I know it's probably underwhelming to get the item you want and it's gimped by something like that, but at the same time, is it really that much worse than getting nothing at all for 500 runs?

If you were going to get your item on run 500 regardless, then is there any real downside to getting a lesser, but repairable version on run 100, 200, 300, and 400? My fear is that people may have misunderstood the purpose of it, that's all. But if people are really against it, then I'll reconsider it for sure!

 

I understand better the thing explained like that. And I understood well the idea that this Upgrade Device must have a meaning and a utility. In this case, it's okay to have a weapon that drops at 0/8, but indeed the weapon that definitely breaks is pretty horrible. That said, I would like the most powerful items to remain very rare, even dropping at 0/5.

Also about GC, I think avoiding the same thing that happened with PA frag would be good : some complained it was too long to earn, but like 6-7 months later, even some casuals BUT regulars players have like 2k PA frag, some other got 6k... To get straight to the point : it might not be good to listen too much to those who play a lot (say, at least 20 hours a week) but I'm not sure it's much more relevant to listen to those who complain regularly and don't play or almost never.

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