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Nerf Guntecher!


Fruzsina
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Hi guys

Yeah i know, Fruzsi is evil for even think about that! But what can i say? I wont stay scilent no more!

Those whom don't want to read the whole thing (even if you could have), here's my ideas.

  • Nerf crossbows!
  • Redesign PA cap
  • (Read the entire thing for this point) Slightly reduced stats

However, good thing that only those would say, whom use that very class, because it has way too much benefits.
First and foremost, i used to play guntecher, but i find that very class unballanced.

1.jpg.363ca1b1524e5ac5bb30e269091ba99a.jpg

2.jpg.9b693072ee912a4fcbe524354a0fcd3b.jpg

On paper it looks good, that shotgun has more % at lv 40
But let me compare the two Stec version of the weapon, which will cry for nerf!

I decided i compare the Stec version, so no one can accuse me of bias

5.jpg.6cc68ffe1009ae654c45302f8c572e26.jpg
4.jpg.5ff0c8ae05a261680be804a7fc8c423b.jpg
3.jpg.d877ab0fe6dfef05df588f94b7619bbf.jpg

It feels extreme...

The secound thing i'd add is that SE rate is better going to be a prime thing.
And lastly, You can move while shot!

All this thing makes shotgun an unwanted thing.

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The secound interesting thing....

The PA cap for GT feels unballanced as well.

First and foremost, the issue with the "support" question
Secoundly, the the melee cap

GT can use sabers, and daggers, and double saber. Yet has only lv 10 cap for melee.
The melee cap is also issue on AT. however, it's cause less issue there

Using sabers and daggers could be vital option for GT, to counter bullet sponge creatures, such as Gol Dova.
However something for something.... Take away one tier of support for this change :P

So the new formula should be the this:

Skills: 20
Bullets: 40
Attack Tech: 30
Support Tech: 30

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Note: Before i start, i must say this one only going to be an "issue" if we classify this type as a "nessecery support"

Stats wise, a support-ish class have a bit  too much stats at their hands, if we count the buffs's too.

(if you haven't read the note up there, please read!)
But since this is something i feel like stepping on it is a land mine (Like if the title of the topic isn't a landmine already ^_^* ), i would decide to only bring it up, without specify it with numbers.

 

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Getting into the details would be a bit much for me, so I won't, although most people here would probably agree that the classes are not balanced to one another.

 

It's good to see that GT and WT got necessary buffs to make the classes viable. However, I believe it's best to raise every weaker class up, rather than nerf the strong ones down. Instead of making players regret thier class decision, let them have a choice variety of decent ones.

 

If we're basing Guntecher after it's description, "Long-based support," I would say it does that quite well currently.

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I feel like Guntecher gained a lot between the JP buffs (5 bullets on Crossbow, faster Longbow and Laser anims, stat buffs) and Clem system buffs (Tech damage, Bullet damage, built-in LBs and Mastery, SE override, Laser width increase...). Of course it's gonna be good after all that!

As for whether it's too good, depends on what it's supposed to do and not supposed to do.

Guntecher uniquely gets S and lv40 on Longbow and Crossbow, and also uniquely gets lv40 on Card. Those all happen to be single target weapons so I think that should be it's strength. Crossbow with 5 bullets is ok to me, that's what it had on JP and Shotgun can hit 2 targets which Crossbow can't. The stats also seem ok to me.

As for the techs... honestly speaking I felt like it was a bit strange that some classes get +10 in various places but not all. If it was down to player choice like GAS and every class gets to choose, that's fine but this was pre-chosen and for specific classes only and GT got the best one. The other classes had offensive categories buffed, but you can't use your best category and a buffed category at the same time. i.e. if you're busy Tornado Breaking you can't use your awesome lv30 Handgun bullet to hit something. No matter what it's still second best. But you can buff yourself with a lv31+ buff and it'll be active when you attack. Generally anything that leads to bigger numbers on the best option probably needs a bit of caution.

So I totally agree with lv20 Skills instead of lv40 Supports. It'll help with diversity since you don't have to go Beast to Nanoblast for a melee option.

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10 hours ago, Seority said:

It's good to see that GT and WT got necessary buffs to make the classes viable. However, I believe it's best to raise every weaker class up, rather than nerf the strong ones down. Instead of making players regret thier class decision, let them have a choice variety of decent ones.

This kind of balancing is not a good idea at all. If one class happens to be more powerful than the rest, then 'buff the others to be as good' is just going to lead to out of control power creep. When you're done you'll find yourself having to rebalance the monsters to cater to the new baseline power level, and while you're retuning everything around the new baseline you're inevitably going to make yourself more problems because balancing stuff is hard (classes or monsters being buffed too much/too little and needing further adjustment, etc).

It's much better to just nerf the class that stands out as above the rest. Don't nerf it to the ground - just nerf it as much as it needs to be nerfed to return it to the same power level as the other classes. And if some classes are legitimately underperforming, they can get buffs.

But don't go the route of 'guntecher is OP so let's make every other class as good as guntecher'. Trust me, it doesn't work. I've been there, done that, seen the results. It might seem like an appealing way to make everyone happy but in the long run you're just shooting yourself in the foot.

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@ZetaAre you saying that Guntechers are the best class in the game? 

Sure, it's way more powerful then it ever was, but I still don't see it being above Fighmaster or Masterforce. If the choice is to nerf GT down to another class's level, then that means you will have to do the same for the others and I'm unsure people would be for nerfing classes that they worked hard to max out or enjoy playing. Making the other classes slightly better seems like a healthier idea and, to be fair, are we really worried about power creep right now?

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Just now, Seority said:

@ZetaAre you saying that Guntechers are the best class in the game? 

Nah, I'm not passing judgement on what classes are the best or not. From what I've seen GT is very strong but I don't know the game to the level required to make that judgement.

I'm just saying that you should really be careful with the 'this class is OP' 'let's buff everything else to its level!' attitude.

5 minutes ago, Seority said:

If the choice is to nerf GT down to another class's level, then that means you will have to do the same for the others and I'm unsure people would be for nerfing classes that they worked hard to max out or enjoy playing. Making the other classes slightly better seems like a healthier idea and, to be fair, are we really worried about power creep right now?

But I've done game design myself in the past, and I've been down the 'trying to please people by avoiding nerfs' route, and it does not work. Sometimes the best thing for the game is to grit your teeth and hammer down the nail that stands out.

Is this case one of those situations? I dunno. The changes proposed in the OP sound reasonable, but I'm not knowledgeable enough to say for 100% sure.

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But FM and MF are DPS focused, and GT is about to do both support and dps. So GT is not powerful as mastertype (but it could be debated...) BUT its stronger than FG for exemple. And I don't think FG need any buff.

Like Zeta said, buffing everything is not the good way, we already had buffs, and it was enough (the only buff I'm asking for are the twin handgun and nanoblast (more a new formula on how its scaled), but its another subject anyway) otherwise the overall balance feels good (based on almost 2k hours, played with both a lot of casuals and hardcores players) but nothing is set in stone, could be wrong, etc.

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10 hours ago, Seority said:

although most people here would probably agree that the classes are not balanced to one another.

Some time ago on the forum and in game i had conversation with a few people, talking about certain classes simply become "unwanted", because, in an earlier topic we discuss that AT isn't the best support anymore (which i disagree with), as of current build.

10 hours ago, Seority said:

It's good to see that GT and WT got necessary buffs to make the classes viable.

Yes, and i would draw the line of the necessary at lv 30. So that would mean, you would be  still powerful, and with a good AT on your side, this issue is going to be nothing to bother with!
But i know it would be a big cut, so i would say, something for something! and push that tier to the melee
Making it 20 skills and 30 support

 

7 hours ago, Selphea said:

Crossbow with 5 bullets is ok to me

To me it's only pokes my nose, because the following things

  • Stat wise a crossbow is better (Just examine the Stec weapons i've mention)
  • Better SE rate with same amount of bullet at lv 31+
  • Can move

All together it's just a bit too much

7 hours ago, Selphea said:

As for the techs... honestly speaking I felt like it was a bit strange that some classes get +10 in various places but not all. If it was down to player choice like GAS and every class gets to choose, that's fine but this was pre-chosen and for specific classes only and GT got the best one

Without the proper GAS, it's a bit hard to make anyone happy i would assume. So giving a little extra for any class is going to be good, but yeah, the +10 on all (if GAS would provide) were a thing then yes, it's strange....

7 hours ago, Selphea said:

But you can buff yourself with a lv31+

And practically makes AT less viable option, untill of course we have all the PA's available ^_^

7 hours ago, Selphea said:

So I totally agree with lv20 Skills instead of lv40 Supports. It'll help with diversity since you don't have to go Beast to Nanoblast for a melee option.

❤️

37 minutes ago, Zeta said:

It's much better to just nerf the class that stands out as above the rest. Don't nerf it to the ground - just nerf it as much as it needs to be nerfed to return it to the same power level as the other classes. And if some classes are legitimately underperforming, they can get buffs.

That wouldn't be something what i had in mind, since we have many GT, and i'm not that evil to take all their love away. It's pretty far away! But you can agree with me, that this class is a little bit too powerful than the rest, right? Which make it give the need of the a rework.  And the longer we wait, the bitter it become!

19 minutes ago, Zeta said:

I'm just saying that you should really be careful with the 'this class is OP' 'let's buff everything else to its level!' attitude.

But i would disagree with the point of, if a class is too powerful, then everyone should play it either.

21 minutes ago, Zeta said:

trying to please people by avoiding nerfs

We cannot make anyone happy, all we can hope for we give the required love for anyone. without force anyone to play one or two class, because it's too powerful.

16 minutes ago, Aelphasy said:

But FM and MF are DPS focused, and GT is about to do both support and dps

That is what basically what FT is mean to be, with their 40 offensive and buff techs.
Wartecher also can focus on both DPS, and support. But their cap is only 30. Which is all good. So my point of lv 30 support for GT is valid!

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Is everyone in agreement that FM/MF are the top classes? If so, why isn't anyone arguing to nerf them?

Just to get on the same page, I agree that GT should get a slight nerf to thier support abilities since it outshines the class specifically designed for it. However, I am not asking for nerfs to FM/MF simply because they're the best currently. Rather, I would like to see more love for the classes like FG so they can be on par with FM/MF. This is what I meant.

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1 hour ago, Seority said:

Is everyone in agreement that FM/MF are the top classes? If so, why isn't anyone arguing to nerf them?

My experience with Masterforce is something along the lines of "I am dying 1-3 times per Sacred Stream S2, screw this class it's way too fragile I'm leveling Wartecher." It does perform brilliantly versus dark enemies with Grants 50 though.

Haven't gotten my FM alt high enough level to really evaluate FM beyond 'seems fun to play'.

Edit: I'm just saying that sometime you gotta nerf things, that's all. You might be right in this instance - maybe some classes do need buffs to keep up. But, don't dismiss the idea of nerfing stuff just because people may not like it. Sometimes it's what you need to do to keep the game running smoothly.

Edited by Zeta
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1 hour ago, Seority said:

Is everyone in agreement that FM/MF are the top classes?

FM/MF are master class, they're meant to be powerful. Also to aquire such power, you will need to grind a bit more.

GT is an easy win. in compare.

24 minutes ago, Zeta said:

My experience with Masterforce is something along the lines of "I am dying 1-3 times per Sacred Stream S2

Way too familiar >_< But that's the life of a glass cannon ^_^

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15 hours ago, Fruzsina said:

To me it's only pokes my nose, because the following things

  • Stat wise a crossbow is better (Just examine the Stec weapons i've mention)
  • Better SE rate with same amount of bullet at lv 31+
  • Can move

All together it's just a bit too much

This is a complicated one, the Att on Crossbow is higher but the PA% on Shotgun is way higher, and it has better Element and higher ATA too, and GM speed. 200 Att is less than a 10% gain so Shotgun comes out ahead per shot.

For melee there's actually a similar situation with Assault Crush having way higher PA numbers than other weapons and FM can't use it, so I assume it's to help the non-Master classes keep up.

I guess it begs the question, why does GT get the S on Crossbows rather than FG. But that's Sega's design, so that puts us in a bit of a strange situation where the best Crossbow is an A just so FG can use it too...

Edited by Selphea
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9 hours ago, Selphea said:

This is a complicated one, the Att on Crossbow is higher but the PA% on Shotgun is way higher

I give you that, but the ability of

  • Move
  • Better SE

This will make it more useful for a class that can use it!

Like... Why would you ride a horse if you can drive a car (This one applies only on GT, Yes i'm aware of you mention GM)

10 hours ago, Selphea said:

so I assume it's to help the non-Master classes keep up.


I mean compare a master class with a non master class is a bit silly, because they have to grind for a while to "earn their power". Correct me if i'm wrong, but non master classes, only need to unlock basic class to gain their powers, while master class must go trough on not one, but two advansed class up to lv 10.

Which is makes a that effort pay out, for a more focused character. And at first, you might not even be able to fully enjoy the class. Because master class can ONLY use S ranks, which of course at late game, will not going to be an issue. But i don't remember start the game with S rank gear.

I perfectly understand you, on the other hand, that dosen't have to, and must mean. That anyone HAS to play with master class, because they has to be the Best.

All i say, is that GT way too much love, for a class, that is only required to unlock basic classes.

I'm not evil for having an opinion, i am evil for publish the concerns here.
 

10 hours ago, Selphea said:

I guess it begs the question, why does GT get the S on Crossbows rather than FG

Because GT can use wands, so giving then crossbows, is not a bad idea? But i've seen that the psu pedia have two page about the crossbows,  one says they can use 5 bullets, the other says up to 3.... Altough i know that the 5 is like JP thing or something, so i can't really complain here now do i?

However it still feels too powerful option

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1 hour ago, Fruzsina said:

I give you that, but the ability of

  • Move
  • Better SE

This will make it more useful for a class that can use it!

Like... Why would you ride a horse if you can drive a car (This one applies only on GT, Yes i'm aware of you mention GM)


I mean compare a master class with a non master class is a bit silly, because they have to grind for a while to "earn their power". Correct me if i'm wrong, but non master classes, only need to unlock basic class to gain their powers, while master class must go trough on not one, but two advansed class up to lv 10.

Which is makes a that effort pay out, for a more focused character. And at first, you might not even be able to fully enjoy the class. Because master class can ONLY use S ranks, which of course at late game, will not going to be an issue. But i don't remember start the game with S rank gear.

I perfectly understand you, on the other hand, that dosen't have to, and must mean. That anyone HAS to play with master class, because they has to be the Best.

All i say, is that GT way too much love, for a class, that is only required to unlock basic classes.

I'm not evil for having an opinion, i am evil for publish the concerns here.
 

Because GT can use wands, so giving then crossbows, is not a bad idea? But i've seen that the psu pedia have two page about the crossbows,  one says they can use 5 bullets, the other says up to 3.... Altough i know that the 5 is like JP thing or something, so i can't really complain here now do i?

However it still feels too powerful option

We have different opinions here but that's why this is a good discussion!

There's 27 weapons in the game and Master classes don't cover all 27. Not to mention they have a very narrow playstyle. If Master classes are straight up the best, that means if you happen to like a weapon or playstyle that isn't covered by a Master class, the game isn't going to be very fun because you're going to feel like you're slowing the party down by playing an advanced class. PSU had that problem with Master classes, PSO2 had that problem with Hero, both times they had to 180 because of player feedback. The usual route if a game wanted to do this is to let every class have an evolution, like a Wartechmaster and a Guntechmaster and a Fighgunmaster and so on but PSU didn't so that's why we're in this situation.

Because of that, on JP they did a bunch of things so the advanced classes could catch up to master classes. They added weapons with huge range boosts or 10% PA boosts on A ranks, GAS let you grind your way up to lv50 PAs and so on.

So Problem #1 is on Clem, all PAs were rebalanced, and it just so happens the PAs that Master classes can't use tend to be stronger at lv40 than equivalent PAs that a Master class can use, because those can go to lv50. Crossbow happens to be in this category, along with Twin Sabers and Twin Claws. So is the idea that all weapons should be balanced for Lv50 + speed boost even if no class can use them at Lv50 with speed boost?

Problem #2 is that Guntecher is not the only class that can use Crossbows at Lv40. Fortegunner can also do that, and the best Crossbow right now is the A rank Goodbye Naval which is stronger than every S Crossbow in the game. A nerf to Crossbow bullets is also a nerf to Fortegunner, and to me that seems very unfair to Fortegunner.

Yes GT seems strong, just that IMO the fix has to come from something else. I'm inclined to say drop GT Crossbow to A, give it S Cards, then give Fortegunner S Crossbows and let powercreep sort the issue out. Otherwise I feel like we'll be stuck in a situation where any new Crossbows will need to be A rank to accommodate Fortegunner anyway.

Edited by Selphea
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1 hour ago, Selphea said:

We have different opinions here but that's why this is a good discussion!

Imagine a world where everyone would have the same opinion on literally anything x.x

It might sound good at first, but over time it will be stale ^_^

1 hour ago, Selphea said:

There's 27 weapons in the game and Master classes don't cover all 27

I'm pretty sure there's way more that 27 weapons in the game already. but yeah i know what you say :3

1 hour ago, Selphea said:

Not to mention they have a very narrow playstyle

That's why they're called master class. They excell at One thing ^_^

Fighmaster will get the strongest melee option for S only
Gunmaster will get  the strongest guns. And while you'd say that where's crossbow? Thing is The "narrowness" comes with that they cannot use melee weapon again, so they can't pair it with anything.
Masterforce will be able to use Every force weapon on S. Here we can see the TCSM available, but only because you can pair it with wands.

But they literally cannot cover anything else!

Meaning, that if you would prefer a strong class, with different weapons, you must play a hybrid.

 Would mention GT as an instance....

You can use guns, you can support, You must be at least decent, but don't go over the edge! or else the master class will make less sense.
This issue wont going to affect Wartecher, since their abbilities,  going to be drastically weaker, compare to master class. But their weapon pool is much larger. But less focused on the DPS role.

1 hour ago, Selphea said:

If Master classes are straight up the best, that means if you happen to like a weapon or playstyle that isn't covered by a Master class, the game isn't going to be very fun because you're going to feel like you're slowing the party down by playing an advanced class.

But say.... If you're an advansed class, and you can focus on literally everything, with (almost) literally the same power, wouldn't it be stupid to focus on a "narrow minded" game style?

I mean like as earlier said.... You can get possibily the strongest melee character out of a fighmaster right?

But if you see a monster in the air, All you can do, is draw a trusty C rank pistol!
Have low health? Hope you can steal hp, or else you will cost loads on mates!
Need buffs? Too bad you can't have them without buy consumable!
Phew, just unlocked  this class, Wait what? i can't use any weapons/armor till i get S???

Play as Guntecher/wartecher

See a monster with high melee/ranged deffense. No probs i can swap to magic/melee/ranged! Problem solved!
Monster up in the air? Good thing i can use ranged stuff, or even noszonde/megid. (with limit break ofc)
Low health? Pop giresta, i can also ress team mates, so i no longer need to carry moonz
Need buffs? No problem (Altough, GT will laugh, with their cap)
Nice, unlocked! Damn i don't even have A ranks yet... No probs, i can use B stuff

I hope it makes sense ^_^

-----------------------------------------------------------

1 hour ago, Selphea said:

feel like you're slowing the party down by playing an advanced class

I know i've quoted this in earlier, but i want to give this a better attention....
Let's pick an ideal leveling spot, which is De ragan. And you're a master class right out of the bat!

De ragan flys up and taunts "You can't hit me!"

Masterforce "Damn, i don't have nos spell"
Fighmaster "Now what?"
Gunmaster "Hah, i can shoot"

Would that then means GM > Anything? No because you can only cover the ranged weapons. Any bullet sponge monster will going to cost you a charger :*D

Literally any advansed class is able to shoot the dragon (expect if he goes high up the space)

Conclusion: Master class has it's charm, and glory.... But going to suffer a lot under certain conditions.

1 hour ago, Selphea said:

The usual route if a game wanted to do this is to let every class have an evolution, like a Wartechmaster and a Guntechmaster and a Fighgunmaster and so on but PSU didn't so that's why we're in this situation.

Thing is, there's way too many class, way too few weapon, and way too many game style we can pick from.

 ON the other hand, since there's lot of style we can pick from. We can aim for a certain class for that style we wanted!

The ballance is COULD be there, if the weapons for each class, and the PA cap for each class would be split generous enough, to make Every class viable option, for the role they Meant to play.

Example

Fighgunner: At least every two handed (melee AND ranged of course) weapons for A, and some on S
Acrofighter: Same one handed version (which i think almost actually true about this class ALMOST)
Guntechy: Must be able to support / offense, must be able to use several guns. Because  gun - techer. The name speaks for itself
Fortegunner: Literally every guns + a little melee option (so you can pair your precious guns with something + don't be deffenseless)
Fortefighter: Same formula  expect, one handed a few ranged option
ForteTecher: Rough spot, because there's no much techy weapon, so 1 handed ranger and melee weapons inclouded?
Acrotecher: You're support so, be able to use use magic, and a little self deffense, (Less than the above mentioned)
Masterclass: I'd keep the same formula, in all honesty if the buttons wouldn't be a thing, i'd take away the handguns

But unfortunatly, THAT change would be drastical... and would make literally anyone bitter..... Because it would be then not the same game you signed up to.
So instand of extremely remaster anything in one day..... Try to find a solution together ❤️

1 hour ago, Selphea said:

but PSU didn't so that's why we're in this situation.

Thing is, it can be avoid relative easy, but only when you first set the bricks. You can't build a house, and then years later try to turn it into a submarine. This is not what i say. Neither would ever suggest such

The above said thing about after the word "Example" is just somet hing i call, Me think loud, don't worry, happens ^_^
But the case of, GT should be somehow less like a joker card... it's an actual, and serious issue, in my opinion.

1 hour ago, Selphea said:

Because of that, on JP they did a bunch of things so the advanced classes could catch up to master classes. They added weapons with huge range boosts or 10% PA boosts on A ranks, GAS let you grind your way up to lv50 PAs and so on.

That is all right! i don't want to say, and haven't said any word that non master classes are waste of time! It's not what i hinted at! If you feel that way, i must apologize  in that.

2 hours ago, Selphea said:

So Problem #1 is on Clem, all PAs were rebalanced, and it just so happens the PAs that Master classes can't use tend to be stronger at lv40 than equivalent PAs that a Master class can use

But master class can specifically only use so little weapon pool, and the said weapons cannot be anything but S ranks!

2 hours ago, Selphea said:

because those can go to lv50.

+

2 hours ago, Selphea said:

all weapons should be balanced for Lv50 + speed boost even if no class can use them at Lv50 with speed boost?

I want to jump into a deep rabbit hole here... To point out where's the ballance of the recommanded 40 cap for a non master class without GAS or anything else

If the 50 cap, and speed for all would ever happen, just for nothing, EVERY class would loss it's meaning! And you would find yourself just play as basic ranger, because why can't we have S rank guns? it's just a name, i'm a ranger :P

So this is a massive no no ... i'm sorry... but this very sentence is too ridicolus, even for me....

2 hours ago, Selphea said:

is that Guntecher is not the only class that can use Crossbows at Lv40. Fortegunner can also do that

Yeah but you're just would be able to use A rank of Crossbows anyways.... at lv 150 you would rather use an end game S rank crossbow, or a lowly A rank?
But again, you don't have to agree with me, i can be wrong!

However.... In that case, Nerf S rank crossbows :P  
Saying this very sentence makes me feel i need to check the knives behind my back :P But what do you say?

Nerf S rank crossbows?
Literally Every GT : NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

So either all or nothing i guess...

However, not every change i've said must be done. If we disagree at one point, you have all the right for it ^_^

2 hours ago, Selphea said:

Yes GT seems strong, just that IMO the fix has to come from something else.

I know you've read my post, so i wont ask you to do so. But my prime concern is lies here.... Support cap 31+

Why is it even a thing?

I know that this very benefit will be diminished if you'll get an  AT, but if no AT a vailable, the GT excells almost in Every role. Almost feels like GT = Ramarl

I've played with ramarl on PSO1... And i must say.... The ballance weren't issue there, You could play every role...

Needed some melee? Grab an excal
Needed ranged help?  As a ranger class it's a least you can do
Need buffs? can do that!
Safety Gifoie, Rabarta (Gibarta in psu), go a head.

But if:

Literally any hunter joins, my saber no longer the best
A cast or ramar joins: My guns is weaker than yours
A force join:  I don't need to buff anymore, yey!
And you end up not use safety spells

Conclusion:

We can't and shouldn't have a class that would say, okay i can cover anything, no metter what!
However, i know and understand that that's ALSO not the thing we would want, to make someone regreat their choise

But a we can agreed, that this class needs a nerf right?

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Going along with the balancing issue, it seems we're in agreement that it's ok for certain classes to be stronger to others, with exceptions of course. For a more visual aspect, let's see what we can do.

 

Damage:
Masters>Fortes/AF>Hybrids/AT

Defense:
Fortes>Acros>Hybrids>Masters

Versatility:
Hybrids/Acros>Fortes>Masters

 

Every class is strong in thier own way. The problems being stated about GT, to visualize it:

Should be something like:
Gun Damage: GM>FoG>GT
Support ability: AT>FT>GT

How it is currently:
Gun damage: GM>GT>FoG
Support Ability: AT>GT>FT

(This isn't 100% just a sample of what's going on.)

 

GT creeping up and surpassing other classes who should be more effective than GT in these areas. Is this particularly correct?

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11 hours ago, Seority said:

Damage:
Masters>Fortes/AF>Hybrids/AT

Tankiness:
Fortes>Acros>Hybrids>Masters

Versatility:
Hybrids/Acros>Fortes>Masters

I don't think that AT should be about equal level on tankiness with a regular hybrid.
Since you're relative mobile

But yeah

11 hours ago, Seority said:

Should be something like:
Gun Damage: GM>FoG>GT
Support ability: AT>FT>GT

= The Ramarl way

11 hours ago, Seority said:

How it is currently:
Gun damage: GM>GT>FoG
Support Ability: AT>GT>FT

= a b it too much
(FoG = Fortegunner?)

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With all this thing we've been trough here, and talked about various things.

Do you think that i do have a point right?

Even if we can't agree every single point, i've mention (Which is perfectly right, i don't want to give the expressing, that i would ruin the class to the ground)... But i do make sense thinking about it, right?

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55 minutes ago, Fruzsina said:

I don't think that AT should be about equal level on tankiness with a regular hybrid.
Since you're relative mobile

The acros have high evasion and I consider that a defensive statistic. I'll change the title to be less confusing. 👍

55 minutes ago, Fruzsina said:

(FoG = Fortegunner?)

Yes, because FG could mean Fighgunner or Fortegunner so, FiG=FighGunner and FoG=ForteGunner.

 

So far what you're asking makes sense, however balance needs to be tweaked across multiple classes in general, not just for GT IMHO.

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The more I read Discord's chat history about Guntecher, the more I think the issue isn't that Guntecher is too versatile, but that it's very specialized in what it does. It's AoE ability is actually pretty weak. Lv40 A Lasers with no speed boost is pretty far behind Gunmaster, Lv30 attack techs with no speed boost is also pretty far behind Masterforce.

But it does 1 thing really well: self buff then put out a ton of single target damage from Longbow and Crossbow. Even in situations like close range mobbing and multi hitbox bosses, GT generally isn't going to deviate from this formula. It'll usually pick off mobs one by one with crossbow or headshot the boss unless you get a really nice chance to Laser or LB Radiga.

Is that too strong?  I hear Fighter types are getting a buff next update, so that might change things. Probably safer to take it one step at a time, see what happens after the buff then check back.

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  • 5 months later...

Okay, I know I'm zombieing an old topic here, but I think there are a couple of points that got missed that need to be covered.

 

First:  There are 27 weapon types, so Axes, Swords, Twin Sabers, Claws, Laser Cannons, etc.  The grand total of all weapons is well into the hundreds.

 

Second:  I remember from playing Retail PSU, both the original and Ambition of the Illuminus in Story Mode (the offline single player mode) that 1-handed weapons had a tendency to either have better stats or Photon Arts with better modifiers.  In fact, the 1-Handed Claws surpassed nearly everything for ATP until the Axes in AoI (Sorry, I didn't get to play online in Re-PSU and only in Re-AoI shortly before the PS2 servers were shut down, so I'm only familiar with the off-line mode stats.), and a Skill that had an absolutely insane ATP modifier.  In fact, against any powerful enemy that had something like 3 or 4 hit boxes or less (or they were really spread out heavily), and this includes bosses, it would literally do more damage per full Skill combo than any other Skill in the game, period.  Using an Axe with Anga Jabroga only got you better damage if it could hit 5 or more hit boxes, otherwise it was flatly inferior for damage output, despite Axes being the single most powerful striking weapons in the game.

PSU has always had some balance issues regarding how the 1-handed weapons compared to the 2-handed weapons, though as a general rule the 2-handed weapons tended to have higher Max PP values, though some combinations of 1-handed weapons could achieve higher combined Max PP values (say, using a Wand with a TCSM instead of using a Rod because you're only using it for Support TECHNICs so you wouldn't have the elemental synergy bonus anyhow).

 

Now, I am surprised from reading through this thread that Clementine was specifically re-balanced so that the weapons that the Master Types didn't use still had at least one type that could use them well enough to compare to the Master Types.  Personally, if it was feasible to do, I would've gone the route of creating additional Master Types, causing the Expert Types to essentially just be mid-way types to the true heights of power, to get everything covered.  Then again, Sega did start the 'let's keep the Master Types to a minimum and tweak the Expert Types' thing with the fact that there really isn't any way to create a feasible Master Type variant of the Protranser and Acrotecher, they're literally as good at their dedicated roles as it is possible to be, aside from having 'better' stat modifiers, and since they weren't focused around stats in the first place that defeats the purpose of the Master Type.

I was actually thinking of suggesting some additional Master Types for the sole purpose of creating Types that could use the other weapons at S-Rank with Level 50 Photon Arts, and even had some ideas for requirements and stat balances for them.  Looks like unless the team is going to do a massive re-balance to all of the Expert Types, as well as several weapons and Photon Arts, it is essentially a meaningless suggestion.

Oh, well.  It wasn't like I'd tried to create Master Type variants of the four Expert Types that don't have Master Types and aren't already effectively the Masters of their roles anyhow.  I guess I'll go back to enjoying the game as it is, though I do wish the Episode 3 story content was available, as I've never gotten a chance to play it.  Heck, I'd even settle for a script version of it if necessary, just to know how things resolved themselves after the end of Episode 2.

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9 hours ago, Razmoudah said:

I was actually thinking of suggesting some additional Master Types for the sole purpose of creating Types that could use the other weapons at S-Rank with Level 50 Photon Arts,

Unfortunately, PSU's coding/system/platform is very, very restrictive. I do not believe we are able to add additional types, however we can change the current ones we have. 

I made a suggestion awhile ago to redo the base classes to be something viable, or perhaps repurpose them for things like "Acromaster."

9 hours ago, Razmoudah said:

(...)though I do wish the Episode 3 story content was available, as I've never gotten a chance to play it.  

Same here. IMO, it was the better story out of all the PSU:AOTI stories and it's sickening that Sega decided for that to be server side only. 💔

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