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BEST support class currently?  

8 members have voted

  1. 1. BEST support class currently?

    • Acrotecher
      3
    • Guntecher
      5


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I've been gone for awhile and haven't kept up with all the changes that Clementine has made from the OG servers. Asking some of the community, it seems that Acrotecher may no longer be the best class to pick for support. Is this really true?

Here's the stats for reference:

acrotecher.png

guntecher.png

Which do you think is the best support class at this time and why?
Maybe the better question would be, which of these classes would you prefer to see in your parties?

If you're interested in my analysis, read further, otherwise please post your thoughts!

 

 

l---------------------~~---------------------l

 

 

Acrotecher Pros+Cons
+ Top level buffs (50+range)
+ Attack+Tech speed bonus (120%)
+ Whips (which can SE)
+ Better DFP/EVP/MST
- Low attack PA cap (20 skill)
- Worse ATP/ATA/TP
- No long range weapon

Guntecher Pros+Cons
+ Better attack PA caps (40 bullet)
+ Better ATP/ATP/TP
+ Long range options
+ Multiple status effect PAs
+ Killer Shot
- Lower level buffs (40)
- No attack/tech speed bonus

Buff stats:
buffboost.png


Spose I might be siding with Guntecher as the best at this point in time. I just don't see how a 20% speed boost can out damage level 40 bullets which can also SE way more than techs or whips can. Sure, Acrotecher is much tankier, however how often is this necessary?  

Yes, I saw that level 50 buffs have a wider range, but level 40 buffs have a very wide range already, and if you don't catch something the first time... just cast it again... Don't even get me started on Resta / Reverser when stars+sols can be used by ANYONE. 😠
 

 

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Guntecher. When it's possible to hit almost 9k with edel arrow set (for top gt, caped, pa maxed, type 50+, weap 10/10), then the small difference in support level is counterbalanced in favor of GT by the huge difference in dps. If I had to duo, I will choose for a GT alongside my FG or GM instead of AT.

Overall, I feel the balance is good, except for this one : shine everywhere and outperform classes that it should not.

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In my opinion, Acrotecher is in a weird spot right now.

Fortetecher has better/stronger techs/more LB options. but slower casting(offset by its high TP) and is overall the better balanced techer class.
Wartecher has full utility of melee(40), attack based techs(40), and LVL 30 support skills, They function as a budget FF while being a temporary support at the same time minus the extra utility you would get from ranged weapons that GT has,
but they can at least snipe with bows if they really need to for boss fights. The class is very flexible in what it can do.
Acrotecher, While having lvl 30 bullets is nice, isn't actually really helping the class. alot of the times that 20% attack speed increase for classes doesn't always translate to 20% better DPS, Maybe in a prolonged fight where your never staggered? Sure, but you would already need to have stats similar to that of another class to even get that effect. Which in every situation, where there is a faster class. It's already 10%~15% weaker than its other variant, Has less weapon availability, or can only use A rank... and in some situations, the speed increase wont even effect certain weapons.
The class while having amazing buffs/debuffs tends to drop off slightly if your focused on single player and just want to use this class because it was designed in a way that suggests other people would be in the party, and when your dealing with a private server, this isn't always the case. Guntecher has so much variety in what it can do, rifles having killer shot makes it great for utility and clearing harder to kill enemies due to high rate of fire. Megid at lvl 30 can't exactly do this.
I feel AT would've performed better in some situations if they had more LB's or higher techer attack level, but I feel like it would sorta end up just being fortetecher in the end with better support techs.(slightly, better.)
Guntecher, can deal much better DPS with bows/crossbows and has higher stats over all for techs if they ever want to use them. I never really understood why these classes still remain weaker in terms of tech over other counterparts while also being limited by weapon selection. (this really stands out for classes like AF though but this is about supports.)
(sorry for the rambling.)

I feel like while these hybrid classes are fine, the balance should be focused on the class they closely resemble. 
Like giving AT a higher attack tech level. since FT has 30 bullets too and S rank bows. AT doesn't have a decent ranged counterpart,
and they solution to every problem is just make more classes that uses bow,
because it seems like alot of people only want to use these classes based on how strong bows are, esp when they ignore defense. and there's a stun bullet. And then there's also killer shot..
So they should make up for it in tech damage/utility. Since this class is neither a WT or a GT.
Like GT resembles more of a FG with additional support/techs.
WT resembles that of a FF with strong attack techs, and weaker supports while remaining tanky for more self sustainability,
AT should focus more on techs/tech damage like its class suggests, and that lvl 30 bullet buff they had awhile ago really doesn't do too much for the class.

Maybe.. Make AT a class that has a 50% status effect override, regardless of what enemy it is? That would make things interesting, Near guaranteed stuns, Paralysis, Burns, Infections, Confusions, Freeze.. Just everything you need to debilitate your enemies. Maybe make megid lower, but higher than other classes normally. It'll be like having a PT that never ran out of trap but isnt always consistent for SEs but can do similarly when needed, It would be even more consistent with those support techs that aren't in yet too. + high SE weapons would make it even better.

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I played AT on global and JP but I went with AF here.

If I were to think about what makes AT unique, it would be

  1. Whips. The attack speed boost really helps with slow Whip attacks, and it's the only class with S whips.
  2. Support Techs. The lv41+ support techs that everyone knows so well
  3. EVP. Between 41+ Zondeel, 41+ Zodial and high innate EVP, it can reach the highest effective solo EVP in the game.

There's a few things to caveat though. One is EVP builds on JP were a lot more viable, because you could get a bonus to counters that gave them +20% damage. And you could stack a bunch of EVP boosts to block just about every physical-based enemy in the game once they get hit by Zondeel.

Second is Vivi Danga and Visshi Grudda are both kind of weak. The first part on both are weak options for Exact Counter, the 2nd part is either weak (Grudda) or takes ages to setup, by which time it's interrupted (Danga). Vivi Dezza solves both problems and makes whips an amazing mobbing and counter weapon... unfortunately it's not in the game yet.

Third is the balance on JP was such that AT could get 30 Skills with GAS, and relatively bullets and techs weren't as strong as Clem.

My personal opinion is if AT is going to have an S weapon that no other class gets (Whips), then it really should get more boosts to that to maximize it's potential. Give AT 30 Skills, consider buffing / Legs units with a counter bonus or finding some other way to bring counter bonus in, and consider adding Vivi Dezza ahead of the other PAs, because Whip really needs it. I'd gladly trade the 30 Bullets here to get 30 Skills.

And then there's Sabarta of course, where those lv50 supports will turn it into a Freeze Trap EX pretty much.

I personally feel AT gains a lot from the JP stuff just because of how it was designed. Whips really don't have enough PAs, getting a 21+ on Skills to unlock the 3rd part on PAs changes a lot compared to other classes going 30 to 40 or 40 to 50, and Counter Bonus being so much higher than other melee boosts came together really nicely for it. If I were to play AT without that I'd feel incomplete really.

Edited by Selphea
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I feel like i should protect Acrotecher, as a support focused character.

5 hours ago, Seority said:

Acrotecher Pros+Cons
+ Top level buffs (50+range)
+ Attack+Tech speed bonus (120%)
+ Whips (which can SE)
+ Better DFP/EVP/MST
- Low attack PA cap (20 skill)
- Worse ATP/ATA/TP
- No long range weapon

 

Additionally for lv 41+ support spells:

update.jpg.cc01dfc5a5b8dae75c44f4c346fafe45.jpg

I've seen that you've listed killer shot, as bonus. But you haven't mention Megid as bonus.

Currently there's no riffle in game with inbuilt SE mod (ignore prototypes from this list)

Nidra starts with +10%
Alchemist Shadow starts with 20%
Rappy Paddle starts with +10%

As of current build, which can be better with high end wands and mags later (As both can be S)
GT can only use A rank riffles, which will probably reduce the chanse of having such items for them to obtain. Maybe even at all

Here's Megid:

megid.thumb.jpg.c8097ec14ca0761807ba4b29d3afdac1.jpg

And Killer shot:

1908275962_Killershot.jpg.0372f6b933dd11146cf1ffc9f3ff25c8.jpg

While killershot has higher SE, megid can pierce, potentially killing more target with one shot. with the same SE Override
In my read:

override.thumb.jpg.b4a2406ab859f8ed093b1fe5643df50e.jpg

It means something like, they has sort of the same power. But since killershot has higher incap level. It will somewhat higher chanse to actually kill. (and this very advantage can be diminished with SE modifier)

Another note for megid:

5 hours ago, Seority said:

Attack+Tech speed bonus (120%)

Which not only affect megid, by the way.
People who prefer cast Gi spells, will gain benefit from that.

Lastlythat is just barely mentioned. The higher DFP/EVP/MST

 Someone said to me, that the support should have only two job to focus.

  1. Don' t die
  2. Don't let anyone die

The others is just extra

Final tought on "long range weapon"
Cards can be used as homing missile, their range is high enough to reach up for a dragon.
However, their range is shorter than bow, or riffles. But decent enough to use!

If someone haven't used card weapons before, might wont understand why i said homing missile.
 While their range is shorter than a typical long range weapon. Attacking a fast attacking boss, or creature (if they're in range) as the attack happen, will going to track it down. Even if it's going high up, where Literally no weapon could reach. Such as De ragan's "I can fly up to the moon style." but once he is up there, you can't aim him any longer... Only like once, when he is moving.

As for cons...

Yes, i have to give credit on @Aelphasy's

5 hours ago, Aelphasy said:

When it's possible to hit almost 9k with edel arrow set

So in raw power GT will probably going to excell in this round. So if the party is a bit weaker, using a powerful bow can easy out date my whole rant ^_^
Also... The offensive PA is generally worse than both GT, FT, and WT.
But don't forget that the question is about a support class, so solo or few party member wise, GT could be a better pick. As they can pick a decent support, and an even better DPS character.

And there's one con i could type out, but if i would type it, i  would start a holy war here :*D .Reading the forum, and the complaints. So i wont bring it up, because i know better than that. You guys know what would that be ANYWAYS. So not worth mentioning it :P

But an AT will be Always be welcome in any party (if they can do their job, as they should)

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9 minutes ago, Selphea said:

And then there's Sabarta of course, where those lv50 supports will turn it into a Freeze Trap EX pretty much.

i'd bring that up, but since it's not here... i felt like i shouldn't

But in THAT cast!! I'll bring up the two "barrier" type of spells, with is will cuts an extreme amount of damage, potentially nullifies the  damage you recieve!

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Thanks for your input @Fruzsina
It's dishearting to know that the class designed to be the best support no longer is, but I like you love AT as well and want to see it shine again. 💗

4 hours ago, Fruzsina said:

I've seen that you've listed killer shot, as bonus. But you haven't mention Megid as bonus.

Both classes have access to the same level of Megid. AT can spam it faster, this is true, however Killer Shot has much faster range and easier to target with.
If the mission is purely based on multi-incap SE needs, then perhaps AT has a leg up, but they will lack dps wise.

 

4 hours ago, Selphea said:

I personally feel AT gains a lot from the JP stuff just because of how it was designed. Whips really don't have enough PAs, getting a 21+ on Skills to unlock the 3rd part on PAs changes a lot compared to other classes going 30 to 40 or 40 to 50, and Counter Bonus being so much higher than other melee boosts came together really nicely for it. If I were to play AT without that I'd feel incomplete really.

This is what I was thinking too. They are lacking something that the other classes have received. I'm unsure if the devs/mods are taking time for class balancing anymore, but if they do, I'd love to see these changes for sure.

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You're welcome ❤️

21 hours ago, Seority said:

It's dishearting to know that the class designed to be the best support no longer is, but I like you love AT as well and want to see it shine again. 

Thing is, AT will be shine soon ^_^
Especially once the barriers, and the Sa spell tree will be available.

Imagine this!

Samegid = Mass area lv 5 infection for AT (in front of the caster)
Sabarta = Freeze EX for AT (once again, in front of you)
Debuff 41+

All of them can be applied at the same time :o

On it's own can be a key to win!

Sadly the nessecery techs are just not available to be more offensive, yet there's a little something we can do! Using whips, sabers, cards, and spells. But at the end, Currently you  cannot out dps a GT. But a support is a support ^_^

Each plays their own way :3
Personally, even without the mentioned spells, i'd still willing to play AT as support.

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Your question is "The current best support class?" My answer is Acrotecher due to it higher tier buff/debuff/support tech access. Open and shut in my opinion.

 

Thing is... I read your question, Seority, and then look at what you're saying, and I feel there's a huge disconnect between your question and your "answer." You bring up their class features, showing PA/Bullet/Tech caps, stat mods, and weapons, and then shoot right down the combat lane. It feels like what you MEAN to ask is "Which support class is better at combat?" to which the answer appears to be Guntecher, which I have no problem with.

 

So... my question to you is, which of these are you actually assessing? Their support capability or their combat capability? From how everyone speaks, the focus appears to be the latter, not the former.

 

When one says "support class" I generally think of them handling heals, buffs, debuffs, and probably doing damage that may or may not measure up to everyone else because the class focuses on supporting the team. As far as I see it, my job as Acrotecher is to keep people topped off, to keep my buffs rolling on everyone, and weaken our foes to further the gap and make my allies perform all the more better. Their damage increases are likely to outpace mine, and I'm okay with that. I play Acrotecher with the mentality of a White Mage; if I keep everyone topped off, buffed, and free of status effects, then I'm doing my job properly.

 

Forgive me if I'm kinda stepping on the subject, but when I read this more and more I feel like the question you lead with in the topic does not properly represent what you're discussing here, which is primarily the combat aspects. Now that I've said this, maybe it'll finally let me think of other things. u.u;

Edited by ScarletMel
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6 hours ago, ScarletMel said:

When one says "support class" I generally think of them handling heals, buffs, debuffs, and probably doing damage that may or may not measure up to everyone else because the class focuses on supporting the team. As far as I see it, my job as Acrotecher is to keep people topped off, to keep my buffs rolling on everyone, and weaken our foes to further the gap and make my allies perform all the more better.

Guntechers can do the exact same thing, heal, buff, etc. with higher rates of SE's and dps on top. The only thing they can't do is add the level 41+ 4% buff (23% to AT 27% see pics in OP.)

 

If you're thinking in terms of space, 6 players being the max, would a party rather have the support role be filled by a Guntecher or an Acrotecher?  The point of buffs/debuffs is to do more damage, however if a class lacks dps/SE output, then why would a party pefer that class over the other?

I, like you, agree AT should be the best support class, but it's currently being outshined by GT. Aside from buffs, any class can be on heal-duty thanks to global sol's and stars.

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Again, you're honed in on the combat aspect, which I feel runs counterpoint to your question. "Which one is the better support class?" My answer is still Acrotecher. What your question actually comes across as due to everything you've said is "Which one is better at combat?" The answer to that is Guntecher. By your current ruling you'd pick a Guntecher over me, which is fine. I bet a lot of people would pick a high damage dealer class over me, because that's the way the game is. If you aren't dealing the big numbers, you're obviously a hindrance. I'm just lucky to have friends I can play with that don't care. They're experienced players and kill stuff relatively quickly anyway. I'm not arguing that.

 

Please forgive me, but this is just me splitting hairs on what's being said. I'm stupidly taking more issue that I feel your question is not properly phrased for the material you're focusing on (the offensive capability). You're free to ignore my nitpicking. I don't think I'm adding anything meaningful to the conversation anyway.

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I feel there's offensive support (status effects, disables, traps) and defensive support (buffs, heals, debuffs).

IMO Guntecher should be better at the former, Acrotecher should be better at the latter. How far the gap should be and whether there's exceptions like Megid AoE is a question of course.

Guntecher by nature of gunning should be better at single target and flying bosses, Acrotecher because of whips should be better at AoE and large enemies/grounded bosses. Whether that's really the case now because of missing PAs and various changes, and how far the gap should be is also a question. And of course Guntecher has it's own AoEs and Acrotecher has single target options too.

Right now there isn't killer content where you need lv41 Deband with lv41 Jellen. I don't know if it would be mean to make new content designed to murderize players like Ohtori Castle did on JP, but that would definitely make Acrotecher worthwhile.

Essentially there's nothing that really needs defensive support yet but in theory it's there, just not sure when the need will come.

Edited by Selphea
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Your input on this is valuable @ScarletMel, especially if you're an Acrotecher main, it effects you the most. Don't sell your opinions short on the chance they may disagree with others. And of course any party will welcome either an AT or GT, but if they had to choose... I'm pretty sure yours and my friends will prefer to play with us regardless. 😄

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I appreciate that you think my input on this is valuable @Seority, which makes me wish I had any sort of answer to the presented problem like the rest of you have laid out. I wouldn't mind seeing AT do more offensively, but I'm not a balance person. The only thing I can say with any sort of certainty is I think their melee PA cap needs bumping up. For as much as Acrotecher gets touted as the whip expert, not to mention somewhat more melee inclined than other tech users (except Wartecher, obviously), it gets really shafted in that area with its PA cap. I don't know if that'd fix anything, but there you have it.

Edited by ScarletMel
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11 hours ago, ScarletMel said:

Again, you're honed in on the combat aspect, which I feel runs counterpoint to your question. "Which one is the better support class?" My answer is still Acrotecher. What your question actually comes across as due to everything you've said is "Which one is better at combat?" The answer to that is Guntecher. By your current ruling you'd pick a Guntecher over me, which is fine. I bet a lot of people would pick a high damage dealer class over me, because that's the way the game is. If you aren't dealing the big numbers, you're obviously a hindrance. I'm just lucky to have friends I can play with that don't care. They're experienced players and kill stuff relatively quickly anyway. I'm not arguing that.

I'd more say it's an issue of 'Which is the better support class' vs 'Which is the better/more desirable class overall'.

The former is Acrotecher - it has stronger support capabilities than Guntecher.

The latter is Guntecher - it has 'second best' support capabilities combined with high damage, and that combination outweighs the AT having slightly better support capability.

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Guess the next question should be, what everyone thinks AT should have in terms of support where other classes can't steal the same role?
Everyone here has a good point, though discussion probably shouldn't derail from supportive capabilities.
But offensive capabilities also can lead to that sort of support. So I'll just point out some things certain classes can provide that other classes can't.

Acrotecher, has very wide range support capabilities, and the strongest buffs/debuffs in the game. Currently they're lacking other techs that would make them shine a little bit better but I don't think it's fair to bring up what isn't currently available. When it comes to offensive support, They have their debuffs, but until those other PAs are available, Status effect rates aren't this classes main focus, unless they have a SE weapon to provide better CC for others to deal with enemies, but this can go for any techer. I don't exactly know the precise SE rate of weapons, but they seem to be lower than what bullets can do as those have a listed SE override rating, I could be wrong though. I couldn't exactly find what SE infliction rate/effects they would have at higher levels either, so forgive me for this.

Protranser, while being more melee focused, has access to EX traps for disabling enemy movements with freeze and stun, While burn is more of a offensive version of this and is mostly DoT.
They have access to some ranged weapons that can provide guaranteed freeze like grenade launchers, Laser cannons that can push enemies back. While this class doesn't have techs to debuff/buff their allies, they are the definition of offensive support, at least imo.

Guntecher is the master of ranged offensive support, while also maintaining what's great about tech support, They can stun enemies from afar while also dealing alot of damage to those enemies due to bows ignoring enemy defense.
and they also have access to level 40 support, while not being potent as AT, it still does a decent job while also having higher DPS.

Sorry for not being as in-depth with all these classes/ other classes I have not mentioned, I'm not feeling too well, but I just wanted to point out certain class features without specifically naming PAs as techers would have more to work with if they had other abilities.


My conclusion that the answer isn't that simple as certain classes have certain strengths over the other, and they are further complimented in a party settings. Sadly, there seems to be a decline of protransers as well, at least from what I could tell.

Edited by Lupophobia
missed a word or two.... No wait I missed another..
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Agreed @Lupophobia there should be more than one main support class. You're right, the topic should be about GT+AT only since PT is obviously a great support-based class that should be as useful as AT, just in a different way. 

Honestly, I'm fine with GT being a support hyrid class, but the problem is that the AT's +4% buffs don't accel over it's lack of dps compared to GT. Now, I would rather bump up AT's offensive abilities than kick down GT's, but I'm glad to see the discussion of what other people's thoughts on the subject are. If most people think I'm crazy and AT is currently the better support to GT, then so be it. 😄

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