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Grinding Concerns


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Posted (edited)

I'm fearful of a grinder short and big price hike resulting in saving all grinders until end game.

With the new system a lot more people are grinding, and a lot more grinders are being used. Many players who had stockpiles of lower S+ grinders will be running out at some point. I have over 700 hours and ive only obtained a total of around maybe 1000 Base S's including all my copernia/olpad.
Many people are stating just to get 1 wep 10/10 they are using 200,300,400 grinders just to pass 1 10/10. for someone to obtain that many grinders without buying is hundreds of hours of playing. If i want to grind more then i am forced to make from scratch and spend 35k to make each grinder.

With the drop rates of base s's roughly the same, and more grinders required to 10/10 on average and more people wanting to grind there weps, grinding will cost A lot more and discourage most players from grinding once people run out of what they were sitting on. As stockpiles start to deplete, prices will start to rise and will slowly rise because the amount of grinders being used per day is higher than what will drop in a day. this will continue until the amount of grinding starts to slow and equalize to how many are dropping.

Don't get me wrong, i do think +10ing weps should cost a good hunk of money. But seeing 100-400 S+'s cost 3.5m-14mill to make from scratch makes 1 wep  that the upfront cost was 3 mill +10 not seem worth it at all. Drop rates should be increased to somewhat offset more people grinding, and people putting in 5-20x the amount of S+s they normally would put into a single wep

I feel +10ing a wep should be a common thing to do with best in slot throughout the server progression  rather than spending 700 hours to make 5 +10 weps and have to spend another 700 hours and for example skip grinding in s2+s3 missions and grind best in slot on s4

I understand there has to be a balance and we dont want to make grinding feel free, but i do think this should have a close eye kept on it to see how grinding continues the next few updates. if a lot more people are grinding consistently or if the people originally grinding are the only ones left grinding again.

This is solely my opinion and look forward to hearing other thoughts/opinions on the matter

Edited by Cake
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Well, before the update, i felt like i shouldn't grind, because i'm not lucky in general. ^_^*
Also looking at the 200-400 grinds for 10/10 a weapon.... Well... i don't think it's be like that hard, with the correct grinders. Because 10/10 weapons were exist before the update too. (Also true that not in my armory ^_^*)

That being said, those whom didn't wanted to risk, now got a chanse to get their weapons grinded.
And  technically, that's why some people pushes their grinders out, for quick meseta. But i would save the grinders for better things too.

Now i want to point something out of your message, if you don't mind my critique.

6 hours ago, Cake said:

I feel +10ing a wep should be a common thing

The way i see, 10/10 a weapon, should be more of an achievement, a kind of trophy (I mean on S ranks by the way)!
I personally wouldn't 10/10 most of my gear even with the new mechanic, just yet 5/10 will be decent enough for some, might as well go to 6 or 7 with a few.

My personal insight of this metter.... If the rates of the S bases would be buffed by too much, then i think we would fall on the other side of the horse :/

(Also) Since the grinding on it's own cost 0 meseta, plus with the intruduction of the infinity grinders, grinding become easier, which also might become available outside of the title system. Meaning, Grinding for end game items will be a lot more easier.

Of course it's not a spoiler, it's just something that i have fingers crossed about ^^

Note: If infinite grinders will ever be available outside the title system, it should be bound to a few events, thus make them reasonable rare.

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Posted (edited)

Base S drop rates are still based off old grinding system. On old grind system with a smaller amount of ppl wanting to grind, and less amount of grinding happening, it only costed 6k for each board spot and 15k for a base s. 21k to make an s+... now its 10k a board spot, and 25k ish for base s, its 35k to make an s+. more people want to grind, but they get the same amount that they did during old system, and the cost to buying mats to make them went up.

12 hours ago, Fruzsina said:

Also looking at the 200-400 grinds for 10/10 a weapon.... Well... i don't think it's be like that hard,

unfortunately it is that hard. i know someone who spent over 16mill on grinders to get a poron poron to +10. my friend had about 1500 grinders and only made 5 10/10s and now hes out of grinders. thats about 300 per wep. if you bought all of those base S's and boards right now, thats 37.5mill worth of base S's and 15mill worth of boards. 10mill per wep.

All im saying is, amount needed to +10 has on average doubled and board price has gone up 66% from what it was, base s drop rates should be a little higher. 

Edited by Cake
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3 hours ago, Cake said:

unfortunately it is that hard. i know someone who spent over 16mill on grinders to get a poron poron

And now i curve back to something i've said earlier

15 hours ago, Fruzsina said:

The way i see, 10/10 a weapon, should be more of an achievement, a kind of trophy (I mean on S ranks by the way)!

Yeah sure i would be also be upset if i would need to pay over 10 million mesetas to achieve it.
However, there's no invisible hand behind me, that would say. make every weapon have 10/10

And if i would really really want to 10/10 from there. i would then either going to risk it, or hope for the Infinity Grinder way. Which probably wont be added, but fingers crossed for it ^_^

However, that poron poron seem to worth it. But personally i would going only for 6, unless it's a prototype, that would boost raw damage, or SE rate. then all hail 10/10! But knowing myself, i may just end up on 6-7? That would save a lot of stress, money, grinders, and most importantly, mood to play, and challange.

Personally, the challange rate would be the very thing, that i would miss. And i understand that we all our free time to play.
But prototype weapons can be more powerful, than we may think of them. Plus the fact that S+ weapons are going out, such as that very poron poron. Would be more motive, to keep a few grinders, instand of 10/10 our barely S ranks weapons.

Like i said, there's no invisible hand behind ourselves, that would say, you MUST 10/10 everything, neither that would say MUST stop at 6-9/10, it's just a personal preference.

The choise is in our hands, and we're all can get our grindies via the way you mention. Which is kind of easy, in their own respected way.

23 hours ago, Cake said:

copernia/olpad

I personally glad that we can grind safely, yet there's still a risk factor, but no side effect! Which i heard, in retail there was a thing, if the weapon failed on grinding, it was destroyed. So not only the grinding had to start over, but the weapon too! Now imagine, pays for say.... 20 mill on a powerful weapon, or hunt for weeks. Then make/buy only grinder s+10. And then poof, the weapon and the used grinders are gone... Because that sytem.
It still a bit of a gamble, okay.. more than bit. But you get my point, right? 😛

I'm personally grateful that we have this system now.

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  • Grinder Base S drop rate has been increased in S2 difficulty missions.

Seems like you've got your wish.

My personal attitude towards the grinding system is mostly the same as Fruzsina's - most S rank weapons I'll get to 5/10 for a cost effective boost, maybe 7/10 on things I know I'd use for a long while. From what Marm has said in the development posts, I think the intent of the developers is to keep S rank 10/10 weapons as rare and special. 

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  • 3 weeks later...
Posted (edited)

After having spent a good chunk of time and money (150-200 s grinders, about 5 mil) only to end up back where I started, I feel compelled to make a post about it. It's not even an issue of "lolbadrng" or whatever. I mean sure, it's supposed to suck money out and control inflation, as well as make it somewhat of a challenge. Problem is that its starting to feel flat out discouraging to even try for a 10/10. At least for me it feels like more trouble than its worth. Not a good mix with a private server where we really really need to retain players.

 

A solution I was thinking of that could help:

Have some sort of guaranteed cost/effort system so you're not spending an uncertain amount of time and money on grinding. What this would look like is something roughly like this:

image.png.89b89f7ee62e98bf29e85eb1e2febcf6.png

To make it work, you'd sell custom boards in the synth shop that make a single grinder of a tier to help reduce inflation (more money the higher the rarity and success tier of the recipe), while requiring increasing amounts of grinder bases as you go up in tier. In doing so, bases stay relevant and cost of upgrading has a tie to demand/currency value. This ensures grinding doesn't become dirt cheap as we progress further toward 180 content and its higher meseta drops.

The whole goal of this second system is to hopefully bring more certainty to how long it would actually take to get that 10/10. In an ideal world, it wouldn't cost any more or less on average, you'd just know when you're getting so as to encourage continued effort.

The best analogy I can give is a progress bar on an installer. Let's say it's gonna take 15 minutes to install a big program. You're 12 minutes in and this particular one doesn't have a progress bar. You're gonna assume it got hung up somewhere and restart it. Well if it did have a progress bar, you'd have realized you're almost there and just let it finish. When there's no known upper bound in terms of distance from your end goal, motivation to reach it is a bit fragile. (Google the SMART goal frame work. The relevant part of the acronym is the "M", for measurable.)

Let me reiterate. 10/10s shouldn't be easier or harder, just measurable in terms of time/resources spent on it.

Obviously, if someone does an oopsie and uses the wrong grinder in this system, failure should do nothing.

Feedback is encouraged.

Edited by Noodles
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17 hours ago, Noodles said:

After having spent a good chunk of time and money (150-200 s grinders, about 5 mil) only to end up back where I started, I feel compelled to make a post about it. It's not even an issue of "lolbadrng" or whatever. I mean sure, it's supposed to suck money out and control inflation, as well as make it somewhat of a challenge. Problem is that its starting to feel flat out discouraging to even try for a 10/10. At least for me it feels like more trouble than its worth. Not a good mix with a private server where we really really need to retain players.

 

A solution I was thinking of that could help:

Have some sort of guaranteed cost/effort system so you're not spending an uncertain amount of time and money on grinding. What this would look like is something roughly like this:

image.png.89b89f7ee62e98bf29e85eb1e2febcf6.png

To make it work, you'd sell custom boards in the synth shop that make a single grinder of a tier to help reduce inflation (more money the higher the rarity and success tier of the recipe), while requiring increasing amounts of grinder bases as you go up in tier. In doing so, bases stay relevant and cost of upgrading has a tie to demand/currency value. This ensures grinding doesn't become dirt cheap as we progress further toward 180 content and its higher meseta drops.

The whole goal of this second system is to hopefully bring more certainty to how long it would actually take to get that 10/10. In an ideal world, it wouldn't cost any more or less on average, you'd just know when you're getting so as to encourage continued effort.

The best analogy I can give is a progress bar on an installer. Let's say it's gonna take 15 minutes to install a big program. You're 12 minutes in and this particular one doesn't have a progress bar. You're gonna assume it got hung up somewhere and restart it. Well if it did have a progress bar, you'd have realized you're almost there and just let it finish. When there's no known upper bound in terms of distance from your end goal, motivation to reach it is a bit fragile. (Google the SMART goal frame work. The relevant part of the acronym is the "M", for measurable.)

Let me reiterate. 10/10s shouldn't be easier or harder, just measurable in terms of time/resources spent on it.

Obviously, if someone does an oopsie and uses the wrong grinder in this system, failure should do nothing.

Feedback is encouraged.

Thanks for the feedback and effort on coming up with more ideas to improve the grinding system. Obviously, dealing with a system in a game that we don't have nearly any control over is difficult, but we'll be discussing ways and methods that are feasible for us to do server-side to improve grinding without removing the difficulty or rarity of having a 10/10. We know it doesn't feel fun or good right now, but unfortunately it's the system SEGA has left us with and we have to figure out how we can change it within the realms of possibility for us.

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