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Major Issues I have with PSU Clementine


Midori Hoshi
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Before I start, I want to say to Marm that I love you and am thankful for all you have done for the game. Thank you for not making Clementine pay for advantage. That alone is awesome and admirable. I know you are doing your best, and I don't want you to get too upset or stressed from reading this. I also don't want you to feel like you have to do any of these things. I also realize that most, if not all of these issues were not your decisions, but done by some of the high ranking devs under you.

I gotta be honest. I'm not enjoying this game. I've been lying to myself and others about it. I stick with it with the HOPE that things will be fixed, improved, etc., but I'm getting sick of waiting, and I hate the uncertainty. Clementine has some major fundamental problems that need to be addressed, or at the very least, I want to know for sure that they will never be addressed, so I can stop wasting my time, and seek out better games. I have been considering quitting the game lately, but figured I should at least voice my concerns and see if there is a chance at solving them first.

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Problem #1: The game discourages multiplayer.

Literally JUST before the game launched, we found out that the game would heavily discourage multiplayer, thanks to a huge box item penalty for additional players in the party. It was a punch in the gut and really let me down and ruined my excitement for the game at launch.

Thankfully, over time, this ridiculous penalty was gradually reduced again and again. The current game no longer heavily discourages multiplayer, but still discourages it enough to be a problem for me and other good players. If you can clear missions fairly quickly like me, then it means your solo times are roughly equal to playing in open parties. So this means getting 18% less of the good box rare items in large parties. If you can clear missions faster than me, then the problem is even worse for you. If you aren't that great at the game, then you probably don't have this problem and can likely benefit from playing in open parties.

The thing is, the game is punishing me for being good at it. That's bad design. If good players are going to be discouraged from playing in open parties, then this game is not for me. I know many of the best players on the game are all about solo TAs, but for me, I want to play multiplayer most of the time. I don't want to be restricted to solo or  locked duo parties with another good player. How come I can't play in open parties? It sucks.

Solution: Completely remove the box item penalty.

It was a terrible idea in the first place, since this is supposed to be an online multiplayer game. It should encourage multiplayer. The +10% enemy HP scaling on its own is probably enough to balance different party sizes. For people who don't play the game, you may assume that 6 players clear missions 6x faster than solo, but what actually happens is they clear in about the same time. If the party has some good players or they have good teamwork, they might clear twice as fast as solo, but that's about it.

As a side note, if items are dropping too much, the solution is to reduce the drop rates so items drop less often. At no point should the solution be to discourage multiplayer. If your online multiplayer game discourages multiplayer, you have failed as a game designer.

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Problem #2: Bad class balance

There are 12 total classes in the game, not counting basic classes, but only 5 are planned to be viable. Those 5 being FM, Fighgunner, WT, GT, and AF. The other 7 classes lack travel skills, which means they can't keep up with FMs in parties. If you only care about playing solo, then this may not be an issue for you, but for people like me who want to play in open parties, it heavily restricts which classes I can choose from. As many of you know, MF is my favorite class (or would be, if it could keep up in parties). I love using attack techs, and I love the glass cannon character type. MF is useless trash if there are FMs using Tornado Dance in the party, so the class is ruined for me. If we didn't have such a big difference in movement speed between the classes, the class balance would actually be decent. I know how difficult and unreasonable it is to expect perfect balance, and I'm not doing that, but for most classes to be basically useless when there are FMs in the party is not acceptable.

Solution: Give all classes access to travel skills.

Release the dagger travel skill, give MF C rank dagger, and give GM and PT C rank double saber. This lets players of all classes have the option to keep up in parties if they want / need it. All 12 classes would be viable to use in parties, instead of being limited to only 5.

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Problem #3: Lack of challenge

This one is partially because of the poor class balance, so solving that issue would also help solve this one, at least for me. Since WT is the best class for someone who wants to primarily use attack techs, it means having super high defensive stats. Even as newman, WT is a goddamn tank. I barely take any damage, and deaths are not a thing outside of neutral attacks or incap. I don't use Scape Dolls whatsoever. I know that to some extent this game will always be easy and we will always fly through missions, but if I could at least play as MF, then there would be a chance I could die occasionally. I would have to be a little careful not to get attacked too much in some situations. The risk / reward playstyle of MF being a close ranged glass cannon is enjoyable to me. Actually having a chance of dying if I'm not careful is fun and exciting.

Generally speaking, the players get much stronger with each new mission rank, far outpacing the enemies. By the time you meet the minimum level req. for a new mission, it's already a total joke. The game is super easy and only continues to get easier and easier. I know that if enemy HP is too high, it ends up putting too much of a focus on status effects, so this is not an easy problem to solve.

Solution: Give players some kind of option to increase the difficulty (and item drop rate).

I'm not talking about the various ranks for missions, but something different. It would be great if we had some way to boost the difficulty for the players who want it. Maybe if we had a server command only usable outside of missions by the party leader that could boost enemy stats and item drop rates. It might be difficult to balance right, but ideally it would be worth doing if the party was strong enough to handle it. Maybe we could have multiple difficulty levels to choose from, so if a party wanted a real challenge, they could do it.

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Closing thoughts

Is Clementine supposed to encourage multiplayer? Should it punish people for being good? Do we want all classes to be playable alongside FMs in a party? Do we want to have the option to have a challenge? Maybe the answers to some of these questions are no. Please tell me honestly. If for some reason the Clem devs disagree with me on the goals for the game, say so and make it clear, and I can know that the game isn't for me.

Maybe Clementine specifically wants FM to be overpowered, or for the game to punish good players and force them to play in small locked parties. Maybe there really is a "fuck good players" mindset amongst the devs. These poor decisions make some sense if your goal is to keep good players out of your parties because you don't like how it makes you feel or because you dislike how some players try to be good at video games.

I love this game and did my best to help with development and made suggestions to improve it many times in the past. I would be sad to have to quit after all of that effort, but it would be even worse if I continued to put time and effort into a bad game that remained a bad game. I'm ready to quit and move on to better games if I can know for sure that this one is purposely designed to be this way.

Again, I'm not demanding anything. We don't have to actually do any of the things I'm suggesting. I mostly want clarification on what the devs think about what the game should be, and if they actually care about good players, class balance, etc.

This ended up being longer than I thought. Thanks to anyone who actually read it all.

tl;dr
Clementine discourages multiplayer, has bad class balance, and lacks challenge. Are any of these issues going to be addressed, or should I seek out a better game?

 

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*edit* Update: I quit this game. The only way I would consider returning is if the multiplayer box item penalty is removed, and all classes have access to travel skills.

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I think your expectations of what this game was/is are way off. This game wasn't meant to be some kind of super difficult dungeon crawler where every enemy has the chance to kill you with any attack. It was made as a simple social looter mmo. Now, for those of us that were a little more serious of a gamer, we found ways to make things more difficult for ourselves when the devs (sega) wouldnt. We started time attacking and racing, which brought a whole new level of difficulty to the game. Not the kind of difficulty you're looking for where enemies have a chance to kill you, but the difficulty of trying to set the best time (solo/duo/team) for a certain run was extremely challenging and enjoyable.

 

As far as your argument of of travel PA's goes, I don't really see it as a valid argument either. Back in the day, when we were competing in races, we had the chance to select any classes and characters we wanted, and you know what class almost every team played with? An acrotecher, without any form of travel PA. You just have to learn how to position yourself in a way that allows you to continually do damage while also not holding your team back due to your lack of mobility. Granted, there will still be times where your team is waiting for you at a gate or boss portal, but it was determined by most teams that that wait was offset by the buffs and flexibility of the class.

 

I don't really want to comment on the multi-player discouragement,  because in my eyes the parties I run with (friends, not randoms), usually clear content more than 18% faster as a party than inwould solo so its a mute point.

 

I know I don't know you very well, and I've seen people be really shitty towards you in discord chat, which definitely isn't cool, so I don't want you to think I'm coming at you the wrong way here. Im just trying to explain that you maybe have the wrong impression of what this game is. Would I like to see some difficulty increases and a travel PA on my acrotecher? Of course! But I would also like to make a million dollars a year, but that doesn't happen so I learn to adapt and work with what I have.

 

The devs of this game have already put in a ton of time and effort to get this game to the state its at, and I am enjoying every day I log in still, so I don't see it being high on their priority list to completely rework the coding of the game to change it into something it is not meant to be. 

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I play multiplayer to relax, chill, level up, level PA, and get MP. If I want a rare I will go solo and farm/hunt for it. Currently yes there is no challenge. I wish it was more challenging too but I do believe and hope it will come in the future. This is only S rank. I'm thinking in the future S3/4/5+ it gets better. Also they have a challenge mode apparently in the works they are looking into. Which would be amazing.

Edited by demonv1
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@Midori Hoshi with all my respect, i can say your points are good, however.

I don't think that only the travelling PA would be the only ballance issue. I believe certain classes, such as fighgunner would dissapier once the late game items will be avialable. (along with the master classes of course)

As of the challange idea. I can think for something actually. Well two thing i can be honest.

First is:

Personal challange

Meaning, you set some rules for yourself ❤️
Such as

  • Can't grind weapons
  • Can't use S rank weapons
  • Can only use X-Y% modifier weapons and armor
  • Can use specific units
  • Turn off the UI
  • Can't heal in a mission while there's a monster in there, or at all

And what really your heart desire, and requires no modification from the dev team

The other one would be a bit harder, but accroding to the launcher, it may not be impossible, or at least it could be a goal for them once!
Which is a new type of account, that would give you mre challange, for better reward. With the rule that you can only trade with the same type of account (Join is fine, since separated drops)

 

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Problem 1 : I would agree that the party penalty should be removed. 

Problem 2 : No thank you 

Problem 3 : It is kinda meant to be easy though. Perhaps those difficulty changes could be somewhat addressed for S2/S3. 

Edited by Delta Violet+
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For the lack of challenge point, it's true but I don't think the game has to get very difficult. In the future, I will like to see higher rank of difficulty and maybe event and/or special weekly mission and/or something like Diablo rift feature (infinite tower or something)... but something only designed for endgame... Because its easier for devs than rethinking the whole game and its where the game has to really start in this kind of game.

For the first point, its a no.

1 ) The most stuffed and richest players are those who spam missions with random or friends. And from what I've seen, I don't think you clear faster than even a "casual player" party. And if it was the case, then you prove for yourself another essential point : the psychological dimension. Soloing is good for TA and for loot something specific you need. Otherwise, it's boring and a waste of time, and so you play less.

2) Except with some specific item (those coming from rare), the market is flooded with everything you need. That's mean thing drop, and removing the DNR will even more destroy the market.

That's fact, not an opinion.

 

For the second point, I thought you changed your mind, since it has been proven is not that much an issue. And maybe not an issue at all...

edit : but now I've read the discord, and that I do the synthesis, I think that you had self-disgusted with the game... The problem is more here.

Edited by Aelphasy
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Problem 1: I kind of agree, but I think the only reason the drop rate reduction is in the game is due to the individual drops. I mean imagine if 4 people get a Relic Edge but only one guy needs them. Be kind of ridiculous.

Problem 2: Yes we do need class balance, not arguing that at all. But saying the only/major issue is travel PAs is kinda silly. The fact you don't even mention stuff like stats or PA caps is just borderline missing this point. This ain't PSO2.

Problem 3: Honestly I think the game is fairly challenging. It sounds like you're min-maxing and that's fine, but I sure as hell will get my ass beaten if I go into a mission as a level 50 and there's level 85 enemies. Maybe down the line once we hit the Level 200 cap, they'll introduce some sort of SX Difficulty on some missions for max level people. That'd be interesting. Until then though I think difficulty is fine, stats of enemies at lv 100+ are already higher than Sega when comparing the Wiki lists.

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Problem #1:

Agreed. Penalizing players for running in parties doesn't make much sense from an MMO-standpoint. 

Your solution works.

Problem #2:

Why do the fastest PARTY clear times include types like Protranser or Fortegunner if they "can't keep up"? If these types are "useless trash", how are they contributing the most towards mission efficiency and speed? Even with FM added into the equation, the fastest / easiest party clears on the official servers have always included types with high utility or damage, despite not having a travel PA. 

It's one thing to say that certain types "feel" underwhelming because they're slower than FM. It's another thing to say those types are "utter trash". Especially when talking about MF, which is probably THE strongest class in party play when used correctly. The majority of players who play non-travel PA types have no issues keeping up with their party members with travel PAs. So why do you have this issue...? 

Your solution? I agree, they should release the travel dagger PA.

Everything else? No.

Problem #3:

18 hours ago, Midori Hoshi said:

The risk / reward playstyle of MF being a close ranged glass cannon is enjoyable to me. Actually having a chance of dying if I'm not careful is fun and exciting.

Nothing will stop you from playing MF other than your own stubbornness. You'd rather give up a favorable playstyle with higher DPS for a travel PA...

Your solution? That'd be an interesting mechanic to implement in the future, if possible. But the time spent working on that feature could be better spent completing things like drop tables or releasing future content. For example; the devs could work on releasing one of the few instances of a "challenging" mission in PSU: Ohtori Encampment. 

It was high-end content that rewarded players high EXP payouts and rare materials / drops. It also gave AMP [a unique currency] for goal-oriented / unlucky players, so they could run the mission "x" amount of times to buy materials for high-end gear... I think a lot of players, including yourself, would enjoy challenging content like that.

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It is nice to read a post from you friend :). 

Problem 1. I don't know how I feel about this, look at problem 3.

Problem 2. You 100% have my support in giving master force and all other classes a travel PA. There is already a travel PA out for double sabers. Why not just release all the travel PAs and for every class too?

I personally agree with your stance on problem 2. I feel like GM should be able to use grenades. Also I do not see why FM does not have knuckles. I mean, why not. 

Here is my big problem. I really want to see more classes in the game. I know that Clementine is limited to how many classes are available. However, I want to see Acrogunner make a comeback.  

I also want to see Ranger, Hunter, and Force become custom classes. These classes just take up space at this point. I understand they are there to influence early gameplay. But in the long run I would love to see more differences in classes. Clementine is a custom version of the original. I would love to see more customization in the gameplay. 

I want to use S rank whips, machineguns, crossbows, grenades, sabers, and a travel PA all in one class. I really want to see more variety in my gameplay. 

Problem 3. I defiantly feel like enemy damage onto the players can be boosted with more party members. If you have a full party, you are just mindlessly fly through missions without dying. I really like this kind of gameplay. However, I can see where you do not feel the challenge. There was a suggestion for an ironman like mode earlier on the forums. I feel like this is the true solution to this problem. 

I love you friend and hope you get some good drops this week. BTW One does not simply "play a better game." 😉

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Hey Midori, i know you have not heard from me in a while. just saw this post now.. i know i mostly only play the game to Role Play as my character.. but, i kind of agree with you on the first 2 problems.. with what i've experienced since finding Clem back in 2017.. i didn't think it was this bad, you were always excited about this version of the game, when we talked back then in DM's, i was too ^-^. i hope you don't leave Midori, i've yet to find you in game and catch up for old times sake 🙂. i hope your doing ok, and that i'll still see you around *hugs*

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For the second problem I'd say instead, remove/nerf all "movement" PAs like tornado dance since using them to travel faster is exploiting the game in the first place. It kills the RPG feeling of the game when everyone dashes through the stages as quickly as possible. That's one of PSO2's biggest problems. Make it slower, not faster. That's one reason PSO1 is so superior. 

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On 3/6/2021 at 12:38 AM, x990 said:

For the second problem I'd say instead, remove/nerf all "movement" PAs like tornado dance since using them to travel faster is exploiting the game in the first place. It kills the RPG feeling of the game when everyone dashes through the stages as quickly as possible. That's one of PSO2's biggest problems. Make it slower, not faster. That's one reason PSO1 is so superior. 

This, I like this. Exactly my thoughts on PSO vs PSO2. (I don't want the PAs removed, instead nerf their travel distance and as compensation, increase Attack Power and/or Accuracy.)

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Tbh, I recognize that I don't answer or reply the forums for time reasons since I mostly work, but... when I've seen a topic like that, especially with a rage quit attitude from the author of this topic...

Look, i dunno what do you think for making a topic like this, but, for me, this is a clear demonstration that you've a very big issue with yourself. Ofc, I'm not here for judging your feelings since it's a forum for discussing things. However, imo...

1) I'd like to agree with the 1st problem, if Marma hadn't told many times that the main reason of it is the client limitations in terms of having a maximum ammount of 50 items per client, which means, although he can reduce the penalty of it, maybe the consequences of it could be drastically, especially when there are too many useless items like 1-6* mats, or even the 7-9* mats. I think that, the main issue of it is 

2) Basically you forget that FF does have access to S-Rank Single Claws, which means they can travel fast with the travel PA of the claw, and that travel PA, not necessarily is too bad for considering the FF class an useless one. Plus, FF, by far, is always the melee class with the highest ammount of atp, making SUVs / Nanoblasts from a FF Cast / Beast the most powerful of them , the melee class with the highest ammount of S-Rank melee weapons and the melee class with the highest ammount of physical defense & HP, making one of the classes with a very high chance of surviving if buffed. Additionaly, I know about how playing FM with Tornado Dance for rushing, but as Aelph said, that thing is not always the best choice since certain missions will not allow to do it for one or other reason. Furthermore, FM is one of the weakest classes in terms of resisting the hits although they have slightly better MST than the other classes with the exception of the WT since the hybridization of Hunter & Force. Yes, ofc FM is tremendously powerful if the PAs are at lv50 and the weapons are highly grinded and/or has an element rate about 45-50%. However, the lack of ranged attacks like FM makes the class the riskiest of all melees since, even with C-Rank Handgun for just some missions, the lack of ranged attacks. That thing will have serious consequences in bosses like De Ragan when they can fly and you cannot defend against flying enemies like it.

Honestly you should know that FM can't use Sougacho Sekka, which means FFs with it against bosses can break significantly them.

In addition of all them, I suggest you to talk with Aelph about how FG is ridiculously powerful from distances, especially with SEs' rates from rifles. I can guarantee you that travel PA is not the only important thing in PSU. Even if the staff were in the moment to add the dagger travel PA for all people, I can assure you that nothing will change, or not at least when there are another important things than the movement speed / attack speed. As some people said, this is not PSO2 when the only thing which matters is having the best ammount of damage & the movement speed since many quests / missions forces you to do the missions in a limited ammount of time, making it extremely aggresive.

3) I agree, but, tbh, I don't think the staff will start to think in it until S4 or even the clementine S5 version. The main reason for it is that not all ppl does have all their 36 PAs at lv40 (or less, depending of the class & the PA type), not all does have a rainbow 10/10 gear and not all does have the top tier units for it... for then making even better gear for it.

I'm not saying here that the game lacks of challenge. Ofc it is, especially when I kill enemies from just 1-2 comboes, excepting for those ones with very high melee resistance, and... even that's not an issue since the big atp ammount of FFs can break near everything.

Furthermore, there is already a C-Mode being developed by the staff. Just give them time for it.

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In conclussion:

If you don't have fun of the game, I'd like to suggest you to resting from it. It's bad for ppl playing games which suffers themselves, even if they tell the others that they love the game. Loving a game should never means sacrifying yourself, especially when mental health is more important than... everything, including a game of mid half 2000.

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I can see where you are going with the drop % thing and I think many can agree on that. However, a lot of those changes with the classes (while cool) just aren't what the game ever was. I know this is a different server and they can control some things but at the same time Its an old game that was never really that "balanced". If they do something like that then cool but its cool without it as well. I can understand wanting to keep it fresh but I just play what / how I want anyway. This game is a godsend to me. I'm glad we got it at all. I like and dislike MANY of the changes (I want the damn charm on my shotty) but at the end of the day I still keep coming back because I enjoy it. I think its good to vent and get this out there but I am honestly impressed at how far the small team has come and I am perfectly fine with them chipping away at things like they are. Again, I am just glad I can play this games online version somewhere and actually feel safe enough to grind. Travel PA's? Not a huge deal to me. I never really used them anyway.

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On 3/1/2021 at 11:51 PM, Bumblebee said:

I think your expectations of what this game was/is are way off. This game wasn't meant to be some kind of super difficult dungeon crawler where every enemy has the chance to kill you with any attack. It was made as a simple social looter mmo. Now, for those of us that were a little more serious of a gamer, we found ways to make things more difficult for ourselves when the devs (sega) wouldnt. We started time attacking and racing, which brought a whole new level of difficulty to the game. Not the kind of difficulty you're looking for where enemies have a chance to kill you, but the difficulty of trying to set the best time (solo/duo/team) for a certain run was extremely challenging and enjoyable.

 

As far as your argument of of travel PA's goes, I don't really see it as a valid argument either. Back in the day, when we were competing in races, we had the chance to select any classes and characters we wanted, and you know what class almost every team played with? An acrotecher, without any form of travel PA. You just have to learn how to position yourself in a way that allows you to continually do damage while also not holding your team back due to your lack of mobility. Granted, there will still be times where your team is waiting for you at a gate or boss portal, but it was determined by most teams that that wait was offset by the buffs and flexibility of the class.

 

I don't really want to comment on the multi-player discouragement,  because in my eyes the parties I run with (friends, not randoms), usually clear content more than 18% faster as a party than inwould solo so its a mute point.

 

I know I don't know you very well, and I've seen people be really shitty towards you in discord chat, which definitely isn't cool, so I don't want you to think I'm coming at you the wrong way here. Im just trying to explain that you maybe have the wrong impression of what this game is. Would I like to see some difficulty increases and a travel PA on my acrotecher? Of course! But I would also like to make a million dollars a year, but that doesn't happen so I learn to adapt and work with what I have.

 

The devs of this game have already put in a ton of time and effort to get this game to the state its at, and I am enjoying every day I log in still, so I don't see it being high on their priority list to completely rework the coding of the game to change it into something it is not meant to be. 

Don't even know why I commented. This is how I feel for the most part tbh. its either youtube and grind / chill or SPEEEEEEEEEED.

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 3/6/2021 at 6:38 PM, x990 said:

For the second problem I'd say instead, remove/nerf all "movement" PAs like tornado dance since using them to travel faster is exploiting the game in the first place. It kills the RPG feeling of the game when everyone dashes through the stages as quickly as possible. That's one of PSO2's biggest problems. Make it slower, not faster. That's one reason PSO1 is so superior. [obnoxious colouring removed for readability]

This.

I mean, I'm hardly any kind of role-player, I play this as a hack & slash (& burn!) loot collection game. But the very fact we have a term like 'travel PAs' in common use is a pretty big indicator that there's something wrong with how certain PAs affect the balance of fundamental mechanics like moving your character from one location to another.

All travel-capable PAs should have their travel distance/speed reduced so that there's no longer an advantage to using these PAs to travel faster than simple running would allow. I doubt these PAs were originally intended to be used in that fashion, and it won't negatively affect anyone beyond adding a few seconds to the TA community's fastest mission times. And if anyone wants to be moving faster than that, there is always Sonic R.

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Is it listed anywhere the exact box penalty per extra person in a group.   Does this also apply for regular drop during the mission. 
I’m familiar with DAR from PSO. This is basically the same thing I assume. 

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