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milranduil

Base Type EXP Reqs.

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The MP seems improved on the earliest C-rank missions considerably, but the gains drop off pretty quick as soon as you get to B (sleeping warriors B gave 6 more MP than before lol). 

I also found that the EXP required to reach Lv50 has almost been doubled what official was (760k vs 1.4mil total EXP). A few friends have already mentioned leveling skills above 25 is super, super slow which was again not the case on official even without PA leveling boost periods.

This again raises the question of what's the underlying reasoning for making things so much harder than official? I know the person responsible for these changes, and it's not Marm. I'm going to avoid namedropping because I don't want this to be a witch hunt. I care more about the game being good than crucifying this individual. That being said, all of these "make the game much, much more grindy than official" changes shows a clear lack of any sort of experience on the official servers, and I have constantly been asking the question "why is this person in charge of balancing all of this if they clear did not play any number of hours on the official game?".

Frankly, I don't know the answer to this question, but it's incredibly arrogant to assume that the majority of the player base is looking for a MORE grindy experience than what PSU already was. People didn't come here to play PSU2 or PSU+, they came to re-experience the game they knew and loved 10 years ago. It's not as though many of these pieces of knowledge about the game are unknown, these are *intentional* changes to make the game more grindy for whatever reason. EXP per level, class MP per level, JP standards for MP gain on mission clear are all known on both the JP wiki and psupedia, there's no guesswork needed.

I think the idea to make a unified MP formula is great to give incentive to run whatever mission you want. This highlights the core issue though: the MP formula as it was on release would have been perfect if class MP was the same as official, I personally don't think anything would have been needed to be changed (although I agree rare mission MP was a little low before).  All of the issues could have been avoided if this super-grind mindset hadn't been implemented in the first place, which is what I thought was the purpose of testing beforehand. Instead, base type leveling was made insanely difficult weeks before server open, and now it can't be fixed without a series of mild changes (that Marm must now spend time worrying about again) to correct that single error.
 

I want to be crystal clear about what I'm saying: I don't blame Marm for any of this, he's had his hands full with the server itself. It isn't and shouldn't be his problem to deal with emulating official with such simple tasks as base class MP requirements, that is clearly a waste of time and resources. There is a single dev responsible for this, and he knows who he is. This person was given plenty of experience from players who played thousands of hours on official servers, and he chose to ignore all of them and make his own changes without saying anything thinking he knows better than the rest of us despite his lack of any sort of experience.

Edited by milranduil

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I want clem to be good. PSU was a really fun game to me for a long time, and I know clem is more than capable of accurately recreating most of the aspects we loved about the game. Make no mistake, I want Clem to succeed as best it can. It is extremely unfortunate that seemingly a single person is standing in the way of accurately recreating that with their own agenda whatever that is. I just don't get it...

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I genuinely feel bad for Marm, Jakoo, and anyone else that may have been out of the loop of these things being adjusted so harshly. It's a bunch damage control, minor tweaks and changes, inconsistencies in info, and criticism that could've otherwise been avoided. Furthermore, I feel for the community that has to play through this; players new to PSU especially. I don't think anyone would've asked for what the state of things are now. This move to make things more grindy has made the game less enjoyable for the casual, but funnily enough, hasn't stopped the hardcore players pretty much at all (First level 50s in 2~3 days iirc lol).

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2 hours ago, Emmarel said:

but funnily enough, hasn't stopped the hardcore players pretty much at all (First level 50s in 2~3 days iirc lol).

This, this right here. It honestly is starting to just outright SCREAM gate keeping at this point. It's almost like they don't want other people to play this game.

EDIT: "they" being the hardcore players that don't want to make the grind easier for whichever reason(s) they have.

Edited by Leonalmasy

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2 hours ago, Emmarel said:

I genuinely feel bad for Marm, Jakoo, and anyone else that may have been out of the loop of these things being adjusted so harshly. It's a bunch damage control, minor tweaks and changes, inconsistencies in info, and criticism that could've otherwise been avoided. Furthermore, I feel for the community that has to play through this; players new to PSU especially. I don't think anyone would've asked for what the state of things are now. This move to make things more grindy has made the game less enjoyable for the casual, but funnily enough, hasn't stopped the hardcore players pretty much at all (First level 50s in 2~3 days iirc lol).

 

21 minutes ago, Leonalmasy said:

This, this right here. It honestly is starting to just outright SCREAM gate keeping at this point. It's almost like they don't want other people to play this game.

EDIT: "they" being the hardcore players that don't want to make the grind easier for whichever reason(s) they have.

Those at 50 likely lucked out with rare missions or their friends got some and gave them free seats every time so it was smooth sailing. I have yet to get a PA past 20 yet, but if that's another slow burn as milranduil said, on top of classes, I may have to stop for a bit and see if it's corrected, if at all. PSU was always grindy yes, we knew this and we *like* this - there's always something to level, something to craft, something to grind, something to customize, something to hunt, something to work towards. But it was a rare case where the grind felt fair and reasonable. It took a lot of tweaking along the way, but by the end of it, Sega seemed to hit a good spot where everything wasn't just showered on you effortlessly, but it also didn't feel like a giant mountain to climb either.

I've been the biggest cheerleader of this project and giving praise every time an update was announced, and it would be rather tragic for both the developers who poured their knowledge and dedication over a span of many years and the community, if someone was undermining Marmalade at the final stages in the last few weeks and doing their own adjustments in the background.

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16 hours ago, milranduil said:

...A few friends have already mentioned leveling skills above 25 is super, super slow ...

I want to comment on this as it's a question I've been meaning to ask; A while ago I remember hearing that the intent was to speed up leveling from 1-20, then slow it down after that. The overall total would be the same but the "bad" early levels would be faster. If that's still the case then maybe that's why it feels slow? At the same  time, PA EXP was adjusted throughout the game, from my understanding having two "big" times. Are we operating under both of these? Or something entirely different?

17 hours ago, milranduil said:

I think the idea to make a unified MP formula is great to give incentive to run whatever mission you want. This highlights the core issue though:

While I agree this is a highlight of a core issue, I don't agree that the core issue being highlighted is the same. I've been saying it since the start, and I will keep on saying it because it's something people just don't understand, gamers and programmers are NOT game designers. Just because we play the hell out of games doesn't mean we know the first thing about designing them. If I had a nickle for every time I saw someone suggest an idea for a game that was in actuality a terrible idea, I would be a millionaire. ... If I had a nickle for every time I saw it towards Clementine, I'd at least have a few hundred thousand dollars (here's looking at you, people who think things should be balanced around time attacks.) The rebalancing of MP is, in theory, a good design choice. But believe it or not, the old MP values of AotI missions being way higher than vanilla? Also a good game design choice! A lot of the context has to do with timing, however.

At one point in the past, Marm (I think) mentioned that things are not going to be exactly the same as official, because... Well, we don't have the official code. Everything done basically had to be done via "memory", getting the best approximation of how things were. To that extent, I think it is totally reasonable to assume it won't be the exact same experience we once had. Things will be different. It's just how it is. However, at the same time, unless Clem staff has actual professional game designers on their team, deliberately straying further and further away from the original is a really bad idea. Game design is mindbogglingly complex, moreso than 99% of video game enthusiasts will ever know. PSU is the perfect game to illustrate just how hard it is. Think about how often people would complain about the state of PSU, either the balance, the handling, whatever, and how much of a shitshow it was. It wasn't great, right? The people responsible for that mess are/were professionals. They know and knew a helluvalot better than we do how to design a game, and it was still a hot mess.

17 hours ago, milranduil said:

It isn't and shouldn't be his problem to deal with emulating official

See previous wall of text about "emulating official". I think it would be smart for that to be the intent, but am also fully aware that doing so perfectly is impossible. However, I do think keeping up some transparency on design choices might be prudent! 😄

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17 minutes ago, Miyoko said:

 

I want to comment on this as it's a question I've been meaning to ask; A while ago I remember hearing that the intent was to speed up leveling from 1-20, then slow it down after that. The overall total would be the same but the "bad" early levels would be faster. If that's still the case then maybe that's why it feels slow? At the same  time, PA EXP was adjusted throughout the game, from my understanding having two "big" times. Are we operating under both of these? Or something entirely different?

While I agree this is a highlight of a core issue, I don't agree that the core issue being highlighted is the same. I've been saying it since the start, and I will keep on saying it because it's something people just don't understand, gamers and programmers are NOT game designers. Just because we play the hell out of games doesn't mean we know the first thing about designing them. If I had a nickle for every time I saw someone suggest an idea for a game that was in actuality a terrible idea, I would be a millionaire. ... If I had a nickle for every time I saw it towards Clementine, I'd at least have a few hundred thousand dollars (here's looking at you, people who think things should be balanced around time attacks.) The rebalancing of MP is, in theory, a good design choice. But believe it or not, the old MP values of AotI missions being way higher than vanilla? Also a good game design choice! A lot of the context has to do with timing, however.

At one point in the past, Marm (I think) mentioned that things are not going to be exactly the same as official, because... Well, we don't have the official code. Everything done basically had to be done via "memory", getting the best approximation of how things were. To that extent, I think it is totally reasonable to assume it won't be the exact same experience we once had. Things will be different. It's just how it is. However, at the same time, unless Clem staff has actual professional game designers on their team, deliberately straying further and further away from the original is a really bad idea. Game design is mindbogglingly complex, moreso than 99% of video game enthusiasts will ever know. PSU is the perfect game to illustrate just how hard it is. Think about how often people would complain about the state of PSU, either the balance, the handling, whatever, and how much of a shitshow it was. It wasn't great, right? The people responsible for that mess are/were professionals. They know and knew a helluvalot better than we do how to design a game, and it was still a hot mess.

See previous wall of text about "emulating official". I think it would be smart for that to be the intent, but am also fully aware that doing so perfectly is impossible. However, I do think keeping up some transparency on design choices might be prudent! 😄

PA EXP I can't comment on as no official numbers were given, and accurately measuring # of hits on official was pretty difficult across the board. It has been super obvious in the past though where for example Spinning Strike wasn't a big deal to level on official, but was *atrocious* last reset. Who's to say how it will be next time.

However, character and class EXP are documented on the JP wiki and PSUpedia. The exact numbers have been known and verified for over a decade. That's why I said there's no need to guess here, and huge sweeping changes like a nearly 3x increase in MP required, changing hybrids from 5/3 to 7/5 or acros to 7/7 makes no sense.

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I can't be the only one completely fine with things as they are right? The game has been open for less than 4 DAYS, why are people in such a rush?

Edited by TurtleHermit0

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8 hours ago, TurtleHermit0 said:

I can't be the only one completely fine with things as they are right? The game has been open for less than 4 DAYS, why are people in such a rush?

It's not about the speed at all. Though who cares if you level at the normal speed, we have hard caps anyway. Leveling is only like a third of the game. It doesn't need to be slow just to slow people down. It's all the changes that were made in the last few weeks before launch. The point is that it shouldn't have launched this way to begin with. It's just stuff that will get fixed later. I should also mention that people might be okay with things atm, but it will start to drain on people. Level 50 is only 1/4 the cap and we only have 1/2 the difficulties and a multitude of other stuff to be added. Ofc 1.4mil exp (which is roughly 2x official btw) to level 50 is nothing, but say almost 200mil (again roughly 2x what level 200 takes, which is I believe 98 or 99mil) for level 200 is another thing. All these strange changes with NPC selling prices, MP payouts, MP required, Type Level Requirements. These are all things that should have never been touched at any level. They are the most basic fundamentals of the game. The fact people had to put in 7-10x the playtime to unlock a single Expert Type, just sucks. Add to that the massive increase in required experience, the slightly reduced EXP rates (around 10%), and the massively reduced selling price, you have a game that is nearly 10x as grindy as it's supposed to be.

Why it's so hard to have retail/official rates and payouts and everything else outside of drops and a few other things, is beyond me. It's like certain people on the dev team purposely fight in the opposite direction for no apparent reason. The goal of this server was to emulate official as close as possible, well what we have right now is so far from that. All the information you'd ever need to figure that out is available and has been for over a decade, again I don't understand why this is even an issue. 

This is not about "whining" or "making it too easy" or all the crap that some will say when me or others bring up these issues. It's about getting the game to where it should be and how it's supposed to be. 

Now I'm sure Marm and the team will fix this, and the level 50 cap is designed to catch these issues. But it's still an issue that shouldn't even exist. It's already been stated things were changed in the last few weeks and up until then, everything was apparently pretty good. So no idea what happened, but people are staying silent and we can only guess what will happen in the coming weeks. I simply and many others want the PSU we remember, and we remember it very well. 

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On 11/3/2020 at 9:56 PM, Miyoko said:

 Just because we play the hell out of games doesn't mean we know the first thing about designing them.

I can agree that just because someone plays the game a lot, it doesn't necessarily mean they know how to balance the game. However, the hours of experience under their belt certainly gives valid perspective on fundamental design changes like this one. 

On 11/3/2020 at 9:56 PM, Miyoko said:

 here's looking at you, people who think things should be balanced around time attacks.

What do Time Attacks have anything to do with the balancing of the MP changes? This change effects everyone; Casual players, Hardcore players and Time Attackers alike. The fact that it takes 7-10x longer to get to Advanced Types does not make gameplay any more interesting, regardless of what category a player falls under...

On 11/3/2020 at 9:56 PM, Miyoko said:

Well, we don't have the official code. Everything done basically had to be done via "memory".

We DO have that information though. The MP requirements / MP payout changes were intentional.

12 hours ago, TurtleHermit0 said:

I can't be the only one completely fine with things as they are right? The game has been open for less than 4 DAYS, why are people in such a rush?

It has nothing to do with "rushing"... Advanced Type requirements on the official server were designed to have players try each one. With the current rates, it restricts flexibility for players who want to play different types OR play with different characters (both of which are arguably the most important mechanics of the game)

It "punishes" newer players for choosing the wrong type off the bat and it's an unnecessary time-sink for players who plan to play multiple types on the same character. If a player finally meets the requirements to play Wartecher, but they don't like it's playstyle, they'll have to revert back to Hunter and Ranger for SEVERAL hours just to try out Fighgunner. Basic Type gameplay is NOT fun. 

Once again, the problem extends itself when creating new characters as well... Players who want to create multiple characters have to go through the same boring and grueling hump just to reach the advanced types. It adds no substantial change to the end result besides more hours put into the game. I can't speak for everyone, but the official server had very reasonable requirements and there was no reason to diverge from that.

The root cause of this issue is the combination of lower MP payouts, higher MP thresholds for Basic Types and higher requirements to reach Advanced Types. Any one of these changes by themselves would have been perfectly fine, not ALL OF THE ABOVE.

Edited by Giro

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Hello,

I've been following this topic very seriously since it was made.

I did read every post and forging my opinion in that matter as I was playing the game extentively

I used to be a PC player on official PC server and X360 after the closure of PC Servers.

I was filled with hope and hype to retrieve like a missing part of my young adulthood.

I'm one of the 300th which registered at the first second of registration. I hold number 59

I was so happy to play, really enthusiast, sincerely

I felt really confused as time passed. then I realized what was wrong. The EXP and Type MP were tweaked in an most unpleasant manner.

I think the term Feeling is the most accurate one from my past experience with the official server. This Don't FEEL Like PSU it has the most of the features (and I don't put back the actual level cap or gear into question) the same ennemies the awesome player shop but the progression feels RIGGED and im sorry if this terms shock its not my intent.
PSU Is about Fun while getting Slowly what YOU Want casually then freely complete another TYPE with relative ease but it was having some sort of peaceful pace into it even if the grind became harder and from that starting point you can optimize or try hard to fill everything Types Gear Wealth etc its FLUID.

Its NOT about struggling to achieve Type !I know here we're aiming to get additionnal 100 Level after the official cap. Great concept on paper...but again Why not make Increment after the official requirement and NOT messing with the whole TYPE PM EXP required in the process???.

I did advertise once for this topic and this matter on the Discord Server. For some reasons people were for the most part acknowledging at the current state of things and making baseless accusations that we want the game to be easier and that we're complaining (the exact term was "bitching") or that we were Elitist for theses change and doing NOTHING.

Of course we can do nothing ! we're not the with the actual tools for that this is fallacious arguments but whatever.

and Its not Elitist in the slightest to want to retrieve a whole experience that was Lost. Great people in the team Marm and others put their heart and soul into trying to giving it us back.

but Im not advocating either for a conservative carbon copy replica. Some bits are lost some aspect of the original wasn't perfect butI think the concept of mixing missions level requirement on paper is good with a 5 level increase but yeah again the balance between progress Vs spent time doesn't add up.

Clem is 4-5 days old at the moment I'm writing this. I think its really important that the competent part of Team FIX it NOW before we preemptively put our own nails into our coffin's grave and hit our heads HARD into an un-climbable brick wall of endless grind which isn't the grind part of regular PSU we used to love

I mean why not nuking the Mission PM Type of everyone if we got back the original progression in the process. Why not!? do you think people enjoy doing Unsafe Passage 20 hours STRAIGHT just to get their advanced type?...I don't think so

 

Requirement lets talk about it several alterations were made into Class Progression most are on basic class to maybe in intention, I don't know, to fully level the basic 10 instead of 7 class before geting to a FORTE class but as said above combining 3 slowing down factors with Increased MP EXP Needed doesn't bring anything except that you visually filled all your Hunter Type which doesn't bring any feeling of accomplishement(/completion btw.

 

I'm going also to adress what will become an obvious future problem. War Techer Attack Tech got buffed from 30 to 40 which will make Forte Techer completely inferior/under/non used in any other application because Fortetecher is limited to Strike PA LV 10 where regular Wartecher has LV40 Strike PA.

This is arbitrary balance but as you guess its clearly unbalanced and does bury ForteTecher in bottom tier list.

 

And the Rare mission system....let's speak about it. People are endlessly begging in the trade section of the Discord offering Meseta to get into them why you may ask. Because from an outsider viewpoint it seems the only viable Method of gaining EXP/MP Fast....feels somewhat like legal exploit of the Quest mechanics at this point I don't make up things you just have to take a look at the section of the Discord and I don't put the blame on individuals for doing it because the MP and EXP Payout litterally forces you out to do so if you want to be optimal Which is a HUGE issue!

 

At the time I'm writing this wall of text I don't have any form of hate. But I do scream inside when I do have to log into the game just to FORCE myself to grind into it.

 

It's not OKAY and It will become WORSE as time pass if nothing is made to restore the original TYPE and EXP Requirement.

 

Ladies, Gentlemen mark my words

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From the team:

 

We hear and feel where you're coming from, there are a handful of things we're working to get our heads around in terms of the whys and hows, but things as they are now aren't quite what everyone had in mind either. Whether it's a communication error, or there was just a misunderstanding, we're not sure, but we are actively working to try and resolve it while things are still early. However, it's going to take some time to be able to fix a lot of this and keep everyone's character integrity, but we believe we can do it, one way or another. For now we will focus on addressing the current MP and Type requirements, which seems to be what's hurting most for everyone, ourselves included.

 

From me:

 

There's a lot of good discussion and feedback in this thread, which is great. It's what we want from the community. There is also some not-so-constructive, negative emotions in here, which I understand but I need to ask that we please try to keep everything as civil, constructive, and clean as possible. I want to ask for everyone's patience and understanding on this, that it's a complex subject that we're trying to make work to make as many people happy as we can. Everyone has a different idea of how grindy this game should be, and we're working to try and find the level that works for most people, within the current scope of the game. We want to keep the thread open for now but we're going to keep monitoring and if it gets out of hand we may need to lock the thread.

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EDIT:

Tbh, I'd plans to put my opinion from my perspective from Clementine Server. However, I didn't look Milranduil's tables for comparing it.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yeah, I agree that the MP in the basic classes are extremely slow. And I'm talking about a player who has unlocked at the same time (Yeah, at the same time) three types for choosing between them. In my case, since I'd started as a CAST, it "wasn't a problem" for me because since they always as a Ranger, I'd took advantage of it for then switching to HU and then playing quietly as a full melee.

However, I agree that they mainly benefit to ppl who want to encourage just in the forte classes and/or one specific class, but nothing of getting many classes.

Edited by Sakarisei
I've changed of opinion.

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9 hours ago, Giro said:

I can agree that just because someone plays the game a lot, it doesn't necessarily mean they know how to balance the game. However, the hours of experience under their belt certainly gives valid perspective on fundamental design changes like this one. 

I uh... I don't think you quite got the right message from my post. 😅 Overall I'm agreeing that the changes are negative, but I'll expand a little bit!

You are 100% right that regular players offer great insight. After all, they're playing the game! Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying "ignore the players"; they're playing the game, often religiously, so they're your best indicator something is wrong. I'm just saying that gamers as a whole don't typically understand why something is the way it is, and that their ideas for fixing it are typically just... Wrong.

 

12 hours ago, Giro said:

What do Time Attacks have anything to do with the balancing of the MP changes? This change effects everyone; Casual players, Hardcore players and Time Attackers alike. The fact that it takes 7-10x longer to get to Advanced Types does not make gameplay any more interesting, regardless of what category a player falls under...

Time attacks don't have anything to do with the MP changes. This was just a jab at the community; around the time of the last open test, there were a lot of very vocal TA players whom felt that balancing around TA was the "smart" thing to do. Just poking fun at that (though legitimately, TA is pretty much the last thing you ever want to balance around).

 

12 hours ago, Giro said:

We DO have that information though. The MP requirements / MP payout changes were intentional.

Again, that's not what I'm talking about. Like I said before, I agree that this change is poorly implemented. The whole point I was trying to get across is that, while getting a carbon copy of the original servers is desirable, it's also impossible, so expecting it to be that is an unfair standard to set. We have exact data yes, but we don't have exact code, so things will always be a bit different. That's why we had the re-write, after all. Make your criticisms, voice your opinions, but know that things will never be *exact* because the best that could be done was an approximation. (And if I'm wrong on that, please let me know, but from Marms developer posts that was what I gleamed of the situation)

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3 hours ago, Miyoko said:

Again, that's not what I'm talking about. Like I said before, I agree that this change is poorly implemented. The whole point I was trying to get across is that, while getting a carbon copy of the original servers is desirable, it's also impossible, so expecting it to be that is an unfair standard to set. We have exact data yes, but we don't have exact code, so things will always be a bit different. That's why we had the re-write, after all. Make your criticisms, voice your opinions, but know that things will never be *exact* because the best that could be done was an approximation. (And if I'm wrong on that, please let me know, but from Marms developer posts that was what I gleamed of the situation)

But that's not what this thread is about lol. Yes, there are certain areas in the game that will be much different because of lost code, like GAS. But the MP changes, which is the focus on this topic, are NOT one of them. The MP requirements were the same as the official server on the last rewrite and was changed weeks before this release on a whim. The "missing data" or "missing code" point is irrelevant to this particular conversation. 

I think we're all aware that things won't be the same as the official server and I agree that it's unfair to expect Clementine to be a carbon copy. Marm and the team have worked VERY hard on releasing the game and it would be ridiculous to criticize them on things they can't control, like lost code. However, this particular thread is player feedback on an intentional change that, frankly, contradicts one of the main appeals / mechanics of this game. And as you've said, we can all agree that this change was poorly implemented.

Edited by Giro

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2 hours ago, Miyoko said:

I uh... I don't think you quite got the right message from my post. 😅 Overall I'm agreeing that the changes are negative, but I'll expand a little bit!

You are 100% right that regular players offer great insight. After all, they're playing the game! Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying "ignore the players"; they're playing the game, often religiously, so they're your best indicator something is wrong. I'm just saying that gamers as a whole don't typically understand why something is the way it is, and that their ideas for fixing it are typically just... Wrong.

 

Time attacks don't have anything to do with the MP changes. This was just a jab at the community; around the time of the last open test, there were a lot of very vocal TA players whom felt that balancing around TA was the "smart" thing to do. Just poking fun at that (though legitimately, TA is pretty much the last thing you ever want to balance around).

 

Again, that's not what I'm talking about. Like I said before, I agree that this change is poorly implemented. The whole point I was trying to get across is that, while getting a carbon copy of the original servers is desirable, it's also impossible, so expecting it to be that is an unfair standard to set. We have exact data yes, but we don't have exact code, so things will always be a bit different. That's why we had the re-write, after all. Make your criticisms, voice your opinions, but know that things will never be *exact* because the best that could be done was an approximation. (And if I'm wrong on that, please let me know, but from Marms developer posts that was what I gleamed of the situation)

Tbh, the main problem is not if Giro has the absolute truth in this topic or not. The main problem of it, and because I've talked about it with a friend, IS...

You require about at least 20-30h of non-stop farming for getting at least three classes, because... as Giro said, if you spend time for getting a type, and your expectations are completely different from the gamestyle of the type, you're losing again the time for unlocking another type, and that thing can annoy a lot of. Plus, it's not the same starting with a fighter than a gunner or a techer, making the techer the hardest one to making it competent since you need at least two techs of the same element for the bonus in the case that you want to play anything but FT since they don't have rods, but... oh, wait, 3-4 techs for each element, and... iirc, it's very rare to see it unless you're in As and you've dedicated much time both, farming the meseta for getting the techs which you need and the PA training of the techs for making it efficient...

In other words, the required time for unlocking the expert types are insane for both, regular and casual players, especially if they want to play other expert types.

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So! It's been a couple days since that update. I finally climbed the hurdle of getting to Hunter 10 for Fortefighter. And FF seems to be leveling normally, maybe a tad slower but nothing to complain about from my end. I don't expect half of the bar filled per run, especially on B runs where I'm at now. But getting to FF 3 has felt a lot more reasonable than it was to get to Hunter 3. I'm a run or two away from FF 4. Basically, getting to 10 as an advanced type doesn't feel anywhere near as daunting as it did as a base type. And once A and beyond missions start being normal, I suspect it will go at a relatively fair pace.

It's still a mystery why base type MP was increased and higher requirements to switch to an advanced type was implemented, and it makes playing other types or characters a frustrating experience, but it feels better now I think. Thank you Marmalade and the rest of Team Clementine for listening to feedback and making adjustments where its needed most. Please remember! PSU was a game for everyone at all levels of skill, not perfectly tuned for speed runners or Korean MMO tier. PSO2 fell victim to the horrific endless grind for small gains and that game is a miserable mess of gathering a million currencies and needing flowcharts on how to upgrade gear. We know a 1:1 replica of the official server is impossible, nor do most people really want that either. A mostly authentic experience with QOL tweaks here and there is what most players would like I believe. Again - we love the grind and hunt, just not when it feels insurmountable!  Thank you all and keep on keepin' on. 😀

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The base type increases are soul-crushing.

I didn't get Fighgunner unlocked until level 36, and I spent most of my time running efficient MP grinds (sleepy warriors B and unsafe passage B). While I'm now enjoying myself more, since I can equip actual gear and stop running boring, repetitive MP grind missions, I sort of feel like my enthusiasm for playing the game has been squashed a bit. Two of my friends who have been playing alongside me feel the same, especially since both of them were disappointed with their initial choice of class and now face the possibility that they might need to return to that grind to unlock a different type. I wanted to level a newman acrotecher, but feel similarly discouraged at the prospect of running that grind again.

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System

  • The player experience table has been decreased to official's values.
    • With this change, enemy experience payout has been reduced by 25%.
  • Type MP requirements have been reverted to official's values. The MP formula adjustment from Nov. 2's update has been reverted.

As of this maintenance, we've moved both of the EXP and Type EXP tables back to how they originally were

Thank you very much for listening to us Marm! This was the right decision. You got my 100% approval on that.

 

EDIT: Now the last UNbalanced change to fix is War Techer Attack TECH 40 I know I'm right about this it will just make Fortetecher penalized for not having any sort of appeal over War Techer.

 

Edited by Depassage

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Original values with the revert MP formula feels much better now. Was able to get Lv20 Hu7 on a fresh char in just a couple hours. I still think the base values for beginner C-rank missions could use a slight adjustment, but it's very minor now. In any sort of group setting, you can get MP easily as soon as you get out of lv1-5 enemy missions. Thank you Marm!

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7 hours ago, milranduil said:

Original values with the revert MP formula feels much better now. Was able to get Lv20 Hu7 on a fresh char in just a couple hours. I still think the base values for beginner C-rank missions could use a slight adjustment, but it's very minor now. In any sort of group setting, you can get MP easily as soon as you get out of lv1-5 enemy missions. Thank you Marm!

So I'm a little confused. What changed for the positive to make you say that? I made an account yesterday because this topic said they raised the MP you get. Yesterday . I was getting 20 or 30 something MP from the C rank mission on the colony. I just tried again today and now I'm only getting 12 MP on the same mission. I'm not trying to raise a stink, I genuinely want to know what's going on

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27 minutes ago, RandomMcPerson said:

So I'm a little confused. What changed for the positive to make you say that? I made an account yesterday because this topic said they raised the MP you get. Yesterday . I was getting 20 or 30 something MP from the C rank mission on the colony. I just tried again today and now I'm only getting 12 MP on the same mission. I'm not trying to raise a stink, I genuinely want to know what's going on

They reverted to original MP and EXP per level from official (with a 25% nerf to EXP to compensate a little), then reverted off of the modified MP formula. MP is much, much easier to grind now for base types, and a little easier for adv types. It's in their patch notes on the wiki which you can find in the announcement channel on the clem discord.

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I have no idea what discord even is, but I understand your explanation on what you're saying. If the grind is easier, then that's good enough for me 

 

Edit: Though I just leveled up a class and it showed a blank screen where the stat increases should have been. I hope I actually received stat increases for the level up

Edited by RandomMcPerson

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To Marmalade and Team Clementine: thank you oh so much! I don't know how hard or how easy that was for you, I'd imagine leaning on the harder side of things since Marmalade's post suggested that, but it's perfect. I switched to a level one base class and it was done in an hour or two of Unsafe Passage B runs. It feels like...PSU, which is just what we wanted. The floor has been opened for playing different classes and having alternate characters, and our lost universe continues to flourish and improve.

Thank you guys x1000!

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19 hours ago, Depassage said:

System

  • The player experience table has been decreased to official's values.
    • With this change, enemy experience payout has been reduced by 25%.
  • Type MP requirements have been reverted to official's values. The MP formula adjustment from Nov. 2's update has been reverted.

As of this maintenance, we've moved both of the EXP and Type EXP tables back to how they originally were

Thank you very much for listening to us Marm! This was the right decision. You got my 100% approval on that.

 

EDIT: Now the last UNbalanced change to fix is War Techer Attack TECH 40 I know I'm right about this it will just make Fortetecher penalized for not having any sort of appeal over War Techer.

 

Just checked and yeah the Attach tech is supposed to be only 30, think the Attack TECH to 40 is a GAS leveling option.  Sorry miss read it, I know the Attack Tech can hit 40, but Think that's GAS only, the Skill at 40 is official though. But they made the Wartecher much harder to acquire.... since you need to be a force 7 and hunter 5 now..... while in official it was force 5, hunter 3... so maybe the 40 Attack tech is intentional...... considering you have to grind more to unlock it. I'm fine with the 40 ATech Wartecher is under powered compared to the other classes, it doesn't get the MST and TP etc to really be an effective force like a foretecher etc. You'd also have to nerf the guntecher and some of the other types also.  I think the fact you have to base type grind more and it's lower caster stats, and it's passives being differently focused, makes up for it.

Edited by IceTitan

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