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Base Type EXP Reqs.


milranduil
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Lv7 requires 186% more MP than official.. Lv10 requires 180% more MP than official. Meanwhile adv classes requires 19% more MP than official. We already have Lv100 types open for people interested in grinding for stats, but what's the logic of making base class grind nearly 3x as long as before?

Edited by milranduil
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Are you saying it takes even longer to level up classes this time around? But why? Why would you do that? I've been so excited for this coming back, but if that's the case.. I don't think I'm even going to bother playing this. Give me back all the time I spent being excited for this. In a game like this, I just can't enjoy a game until I can play as the class I want to play as. Making it as difficult as possible to change classes is incredibly stupid. Another favorite game ruined, I guess. I'll just find something else to play 

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Can't put it much better than this, honestly. Really confused on the direction of making the early game the spike in difficulty, all while knowing that people want to play their desired classes as quickly as possible. I know for a fact that this will deter people from playing, as it has happened in the past with easier rates on official servers.
Lastly and most importantly, I was under the impression that Clementine was going to aim to be as close to the official server as possible, then change things through suggestions and the like once people got familiar with the game again. Not only has that not been the case with this, but it has been pushed in such a direction that serves to hurt the player; quite frankly in the worst possible way. If we're going to stray away from vanilla, let's make changes that people actually want.

Edited by Emmarel
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While it's no excuse, I was incredibly tired and ill earlier this morning when I registered and made that post, and I definitely worded it way more harshly and.. uh, whiny than I should have. For that I apologize. Still, my feelings on the matter are pretty much the same. Making it so difficult to level up classes (at least the three starter classes) is a huge bummer. I know I'm probably in the extreme minority thinking this way, but I personally feel like the game doesn't even really start until you get to play as the class you want. Before that point, the whole game (for me, at least) is spent just doing the same mission over and over possibly dozens of times until I can finally use them. Only then do I actually go about playing the game proper. It really upset me hearing that it takes even longer to grind now than it did in the past, especially when I just can't find much enjoyment until I can play as the classes I'm aiming for. 

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I was going to say, MP values have changed and it seems like everything gives more, so despite having a higher requirement, they might actually be faster than official (at least on C rank missions). If that were the case, then, I could see the reason for a higher requirement, to make a more uniform leveling speed. I don't really see a reason to increase the values instead of squish them down but I digress.

... However, I just completed Hill of Spores C and it gave me LESS than it did on official, so now I'm not so sure. If it IS the case that leveling base classes is ultimately slower, I'm going to have to join in and agree that this is a poorly thought out change, and that I'm now concerned about other changes made. As it stands now, I'm going to start having techs hit 20 and no longer receive exp because my PA leveling speed is nowhere near in line with class leveling speed.

I'll wait for someone else to post more math before passing further judgement.

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  • Moderators

We hear you!

We're working on adjusting the MP formula so that C rank gives you an easier time leveling up your types. It might take us a little while to get to a point where it feels good because changes like these are going to be small and gradual instead of large number changes, but we're tweaking it and willing to work the problem. Thanks for your feedback!

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4 hours ago, Jakoo56 said:

We hear you!

We're working on adjusting the MP formula so that C rank gives you an easier time leveling up your types. It might take us a little while to get to a point where it feels good because changes like these are going to be small and gradual instead of large number changes, but we're tweaking it and willing to work the problem. Thanks for your feedback!

You're inevitably going to encounter an issue with intermediate classes not getting enough MP to level in a reasonable amount of time with the current system. I feel the increases in the higher ranked missions, just aren't enough. Some multiplier, that's determined by the difficulty being played, needs to be tweaked for those ranks, but otherwise the formula seems fine to me. It results in the player not being brutally punished for playing any and all missions since, if memory serves, MP is calculated based off length and monster density, or something to that tune. Furthermore, this can also populate the market due to the wider variety of missions being played. While you'll always have a dominant strategy, this certainly closes that gap some. All of this being said however is completely exempt from rare missions. It's kind of shite only getting like 253 or so MP from C-rank Phantom Ruins ngl. This is a stark contrast to the 625 it gave on official, and that was with lower MP reqs.

Edit: C-rank could probably get a tiny bump, but the core issue is still the MP reqs being increased at all. Very strange decision.

Edited by Emmarel
Addendum and cleanup
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Does there need to be a fancy formula change though for this? People annoyingly go through the basic classes so they can get to their main class(es). Why ever raise the mission points needed for basic types to begin with? No one sat down and thought "I'm doing or about to get into A-rank missions and gear, and yet I'm still Hunter/Ranger/Force" while testing (if there was testing)? If it's this slow forever, all it does is discourage playing multiple characters or classes, because there is no way in hell someone wants to slog through 25+ hours as a basic type to try something else or on an alt character. Please make this a game for everyone as it was, not three complainers at the top who feel the need to change things that were fine in the official game. Tweaks and quality of life improvements are the goal here, not making things a more miserable experience. Taking an already grindy game and making it grindier is questionable.

Edited by Nameless
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Don't get me wrong, the game mostly feels great. What was done to class types and mission points feel like a bizarre Frankenstein mash up of V1 and AOTI payouts, while needlessly doubling the amount needed. It's especially insulting when Fighgunner, Guntecher, Wartecher, Acrofighter, and Acrotecher got +2 levels needed to use them. With these laughably slow rates. I'm surprised Protranser wasn't given 7/7/7 as an extra middle finger. And then when master classes come out and they already need more mission points than other types to begin with? Right now, classes and mission point payout is the biggest flaw on the game in my opinion. A flat boost across the board or decrease of points needed to level is ideal.

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I don't think adjusting the formula is going to fix anything. Base types are base for a reason: meant to introduce you to the basic weapons of the game, not be a slogfest. If you adjust MP, you still run the risk of people either getting too much MP too fast (making advanced classes go quicker than they should early), or base classes still take too long. Official had a pretty good balance where an adjusted AotI MP formula would have been all that's needed. Without adjusting base type MP requirements, people will still inevitably get stuck in them when they make new characters, or want to try new classes.

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7 minutes ago, Nameless said:

It's especially insulting when Fighgunner, Guntecher, Wartecher, Acrofighter, and Acrotecher got +2 levels needed to use them.

I honestly didn't notice this. That just makes this whole situation even more ridiculous. It's literally a double down on early game grinding. That being said, this should probably be changed back as well. Like, why was any of this even tweaked...?

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2 minutes ago, Emmarel said:

I honestly didn't notice this. That just makes this whole situation even more ridiculous. It's literally a double down on early game grinding. That being said, this should probably be changed back as well. Like, why was any of this even tweaked...?

I suspect it either wasn't tested or they just used dev powers and boosted themselves to certain levels and decided it looked right on paper. It's ok though. Just spend 20-30 hours doing Unsafe Passage B runs with everyone else to get a base class to 5/7/10.

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That's not offical server and not trying to be close to official as was said many times, there always will be custom features like boosted dailies, absolutely different mp counting system, and in my opinion you just want more attention, so you are capricious with all those topics from scratch. I suggest the title for the next topic: "meseta is harder to get than on the official version, give me a gold bar, otherwise I will not play" 😉 

 

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Hi, just to clear up some confusion, I can explain what I know. While I wasn't directly involved with the balance around this, I think I know what's happened.

The change to missions being uniform across the game (this is to bring Vanilla, Aoti, and JP mission standards in line with eachother) had been going since before the server shut last test, and the MP was changed to be through a formula. One that was changed, tested extensively, changed, tested more. So on, so forth. For about 5 months with testers playing (and they were good testers), the MP payout, to my understanding, was pretty spot on give or take a few odd missions. However, about 2 months before we'd open the server, I had found a bug in the MP formula I was given, which greatly altered the payout per mission difficulty. When it was fixed, all of the MP payout pretty much halved, if not more. Obviously I brought this up for review, but I was told it was fine after some tests. Generally, the type requirements were altered around that change to keep from speeding things up, but from where I'm standing, it doesn't entirely look like it was taken into consideration after the formula was altered, and I'm not too sure why right now. Maybe there was too much going on, maybe people just forgot. But this is the "why" you keep asking for.

Annoyingly, at this point it isn't easy for me to change the base type exp (the level should be fine), because it will produce similar results to how PA's act when their exp tables were altered. I.E, you will lose type levels or not be able to level it at all, so it's a pickle. Of course it's an intentional change, but I don't entirely believe its hitting the mark now that the formula was altered.

Either way it's on my radar. It's just important now for me to make clear that major jumps in numbers aren't going to happen anymore. But to extend on what Jakoo said previously, any changes will affect all difficulties, not just C rank. We will be looking at this today, so I will keep you posted.

Thanks for bringing it to our attention and being chill about it.

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Yeah the MP payout issue should hopefully be fixed. It feels like roughly half what it should be, and after reading Marm's post it sounds like that was exactly it. Also the increased type requirements I don't quite get. People mention most are +2 but some like AF or AT got +4 and +2. AF was 3 Hunter 5 Ranger, it's now 7 and 7. 22 hours in, nonstop grinding pretty much, and I'm still working on Hunter. I can only imagine other players that are newer or have less experience. It's rough.

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1 hour ago, Marmalade said:

Hi, just to clear up some confusion, I can explain what I know. While I wasn't directly involved with the balance around this, I think I know what's happened.

The change to missions being uniform across the game (this is to bring Vanilla, Aoti, and JP mission standards in line with eachother) had been going since before the server shut last test, and the MP was changed to be through a formula. One that was changed, tested extensively, changed, tested more. So on, so forth. For about 5 months with testers playing (and they were good testers), the MP payout, to my understanding, was pretty spot on give or take a few odd missions. However, about 2 months before we'd open the server, I had found a bug in the MP formula I was given, which greatly altered the payout per mission difficulty. When it was fixed, all of the MP payout pretty much halved, if not more. Obviously I brought this up for review, but I was told it was fine after some tests. Generally, the type requirements were altered around that change to keep from speeding things up, but from where I'm standing, it doesn't entirely look like it was taken into consideration after the formula was altered, and I'm not too sure why right now. Maybe there was too much going on, maybe people just forgot. But this is the "why" you keep asking for.

Annoyingly, at this point it isn't easy for me to change the base type exp (the level should be fine), because it will produce similar results to how PA's act when their exp tables were altered. I.E, you will lose type levels or not be able to level it at all, so it's a pickle. Of course it's an intentional change, but I don't entirely believe its hitting the mark now that the formula was altered.

Either way it's on my radar. It's just important now for me to make clear that major jumps in numbers aren't going to happen anymore. But to extend on what Jakoo said previously, any changes will affect all difficulties, not just C rank. We will be looking at this today, so I will keep you posted.

Thanks for bringing it to our attention and being chill about it.

If base type MP per level can't be adjusted, I strongly suggest at least lowering the requirements on hybrids since they suffer the most. Previously, hybrids needed 430MP total to unlock 5/3, while now 7/5 requires 2400MP (5 to 6x more MP required). Acro classes needed 430MP to unlock 5/3 while 7/7 now requires 3200MP (about 7.5x more MP required...). 

To be frank, I really don't get the change behind 7/7 on acros classes to begin with when all hybrid classes including acros were 5/3 before. If you want things to be fair while adjusting MP payout, I'd suggest making hybirds + acros 5/5 (1600MP instead) at the very least if you really want people to still feel they're accessible while still 'working hard' for them.

I hope you're able to find a good balance on MP payout to correct the rest of the flow after those adjustments.

Edited by milranduil
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2 hours ago, SHOTGUN said:

That's not offical server and not trying to be close to official as was said many times, there always will be custom features like boosted dailies, absolutely different mp counting system, and in my opinion you just want more attention, so you are capricious with all those topics from scratch. I suggest the title for the next topic: "meseta is harder to get than on the official version, give me a gold bar, otherwise I will not play" 😉 

 

i literally do not care about attention. i'm trying to point out stark inconsistencies or bugs that have a large impact on gameplay for everyone.

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4 hours ago, Marmalade said:

Hi, just to clear up some confusion, I can explain what I know. While I wasn't directly involved with the balance around this, I think I know what's happened.

The change to missions being uniform across the game (this is to bring Vanilla, Aoti, and JP mission standards in line with eachother) had been going since before the server shut last test, and the MP was changed to be through a formula. One that was changed, tested extensively, changed, tested more. So on, so forth. For about 5 months with testers playing (and they were good testers), the MP payout, to my understanding, was pretty spot on give or take a few odd missions. However, about 2 months before we'd open the server, I had found a bug in the MP formula I was given, which greatly altered the payout per mission difficulty. When it was fixed, all of the MP payout pretty much halved, if not more. Obviously I brought this up for review, but I was told it was fine after some tests. Generally, the type requirements were altered around that change to keep from speeding things up, but from where I'm standing, it doesn't entirely look like it was taken into consideration after the formula was altered, and I'm not too sure why right now. Maybe there was too much going on, maybe people just forgot. But this is the "why" you keep asking for.

Annoyingly, at this point it isn't easy for me to change the base type exp (the level should be fine), because it will produce similar results to how PA's act when their exp tables were altered. I.E, you will lose type levels or not be able to level it at all, so it's a pickle. Of course it's an intentional change, but I don't entirely believe its hitting the mark now that the formula was altered.

Either way it's on my radar. It's just important now for me to make clear that major jumps in numbers aren't going to happen anymore. But to extend on what Jakoo said previously, any changes will affect all difficulties, not just C rank. We will be looking at this today, so I will keep you posted.

Thanks for bringing it to our attention and being chill about it.

Thanks for stepping in and being aware of this Marmalade! It sounds like were in too deep now to modify this fully. And I'm sure no one wants to reset and restart everything just for adjusting base classes or PA exp. The formula works insofar that yes, there is a much better balance than before. Unsafe Passage B gives 55, Scarred Planet B gives 59, and Fantastic Voyage B gives something around those two I believe. So no matter if you run a V1, AOTI, or JP mission you're getting equal mission points across the board so far. I imagine it will be similar with A, S, and S2 ranks. If it's a bug that slipped by, hopefully it can be remedied in a manageable way for both developers and players and middle ground can be achieved. Regardless of bugs or altered formulas halving counts, it's still unfortunate that base classes got a big bump up on top of higher requirements to switch. I hope when we start getting to our Fortes, hybrids, or Acros and on higher ranks, it doesn't become one class level per 10 character levels. Thank you for looking into this as well as juggling everything else. Besides these early game woes, the launch has really been great so far. 😀

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Yeah

2 hours ago, Nameless said:

So! It looks like today's patch included a boost in MP payout, with Military Subway and rare missions getting a substantial boost. Let's continue to play and see if it feels good. Thanks for listening team.

I noticed that. I think we went from like a handful of exp from S-ranking linear line C to 26 for S-rank. Larger numbers aside, I think that i'm going to run Newman-Female-masterforce and the excess levels in hunter is going to be agonizing because melee is NOT my thing.

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