Gunmaster (and ranged weapons) improvement debate and suggestion

[Aelphasy]

It is probably still a bit early to talk about it, but I would like to bring back the long debates we had about gunmaster on the previous forum, some ideas were interesting and this new forum is the opportunity to think about this class, which deserves to be more powerful and better optimized.

 

About twin handguns :

When I talk about optimization, I think especially about twin handguns. Twin handguns sucks. Even used by a 180 or above on JP serv with PA lv 50, its kinda useless. I think we should turn that weapon usefull as the shotgun is for at least two reasons :

- It's fun to use. Of the four gunmaster weapons, it is the one who give the better idea of what a long range DPS should be : pretty safe, dodgy and a bit skilled than just standing and spamming X.

- It will allow to make gunmasters a bit more diversify, giving them the choice to focus in shotgun or twins as main damage weapons.

 

Many solutions are possible, like making Twin handguns deadly only when used by Gunmaster (like, elemental boost, att +30% when wield by GM...) and/or add them the Just Attack feature, which make the weapon more powerful and skilled.

 

But maybe its not technically possible and maybe no one care about twins I dont know, but I really think we should think about it, the weapon is cool and there is anyway no reasons that its so bad atm.

 

About laser cannon : 

Laser cannon should multihit large ennemie. There is no reason that it cannot do it, pretty sure Segac failed trying to do it, for reasons. Another good idea will to make it useful in any situation, by doubling the range of the horizontal axis. In solo, ennemies are rarely aligned. In group, the lines never last long.

 

 

It's for the moment the two things in my mind that I think should make GM more versatile, but like the title said its about thinking and suggest, so feel free to share your thoughts about all that.

Edited May 6, 2019 by Aelphasy

[Aelphasy]

To give an idea of the differences, when I play with a MF 75/class lv5+ I feel like I am level 50-55 and when I play with a FM 75/class 5+ I feel like I am level 30. 5, if he use Dus Skadd. I am 75 gm 10. PA 21/31+.

[Seority]

I think giving gunmaster grenade launchers is a fair compromise, and I agree that twin pistols need a boost of some sort (damage, SE levels, rate-of-fire, etc.)

[BTD]

Agree

[Darkante]

Sound fair. Always enjoyed using Twin Handguns.

Edited May 6, 2019 by Darkante

[Seed Express]

If you are going to give gunmaster a grenade launcher, you might as well just give Fortegunner a speed boost.

[Aelphasy]

It's certain that if you add something here, a couterpart is needed to maintain a certain balance. A lot of peeps enjoy to play fortegunner, and one of the reason is the grenade launcher. I don't know if its a good idea to give GM the gl, maybe, maybe not.

Anyway, it's better for now to focus on what GM can be improved in what does the class do.

 

[Seed Express]

If you want Gunmaster to be improved, add a higher tier weapon into the drop list. If gunmasters had 15* weapons they would be balanced. Don't change core vital things to balance something. It will only make problems in the long run. 

[Leonalmasy]

2 minutes ago, Seed Express said:

If you want Gunmaster to be improved, add a higher tier weapon into the drop list. If gunmasters had 15* weapons they would be balanced. Don't change core vital things to balance something. It will only make problems in the long run. 

....... Except they did have 15* weapons in JP PSU, and they were STILL underpowered. Low ATP values compared to the striking classes on top of low ATP on the weapons themselves (which 15*s WON'T fix), and a lack of Just attacks along with low damage modifiers on the bullets results in their low damage output. Sure they're able to hit things from a distance (except shotguns realistically), but that doesn't balance out the sub-par damage enough. I say guns in general do need a buff, however starting off with something small like slight increases to a bunch of the bullets should be a good start.

However, the last thing we need is to have guns be powerful enough that while they don't technically out damage melee, would be able to be more efficient with defeating mobs as they would be able to kill something before someone is able to walk up to it and just melee it. With that in mind a small buff should be enough to put them more in-line with everything else. As it is right now guns at most will do moderately low damage (even in late game) from a safe distance.

Now, should we wait until we have access to endgame stuff? Yeah probably, but even then; guns don't really get any spikes in scaling later on in the game, while melee and to a lesser extent, techs do.

And something worth bringing up, is the GAS system that's not yet implemented. In short (for those that don't know what the hell i'm talking about), is basically a primordial skill system PSU has, it is able to bring a variety of boons that help with min-maxing tremendously, including some extremely useful effects such as allowing techs to hit multiple segments on a bosses and larger enemies. However, ranged weapons to some degree get the short end of the stick even here, the most unique effect they get is more status chance, except tech users get the exact same skill. So that doesn't really help much for guns either.

TLDR; I say yes to buffing guns in some capacity.

[Noodles]

In the trio of masterclasses, gunmaster is the only one locked strictly into single-target/single-part damage. It excels at this, sure, but so does fighmaster's gravity break, on top of being able to melt multi-part large enemies with any of its other weapons. Masterforce is extremely good for single target with diga/foie, and multi-target with 'Ra' and 'Gi' spells, though I'm not sure if these spells hit multiple parts on large enemies. What I do know is you can unlock "Limit Break Diga" through GAS that allows it to hit two parts on a single enemy rather than one. It requires 50 diga, but it's still there.

Laser cannons do too little damage to use against a single target instead of a shotgun. Their only current value lies in lining up and hitting multiple enemies. The issue is that this can be too inconsistent/situational to rely on. It's like having megid as your only form of multi-target damage.

Honestly, multi-part hitting on laser cannons seems super reasonable to help with bossing. For multi-target/AOE though, as Seed said above, we're not going to really be able to differentiate between GM and fortegunner if we give GM grenade launchers. GM will just end up being a superior version of fortegunner in all aspects, which it almost is already. If GM were to get grenade launchers, which would round it out quite nicely in comparison to other masterclasses, it would only make sense to buff fortegunner in some way.

Of the 5 S rank weapon types fortegunner can equip, one is the grenade launcher, 3 of the others are shared with GM already, and the last is useless, being that it's a single pistol. Adding an attack speed boost is just GM 2.0, so that's not really an option.

So hear me out with this one:

1. Make laser cannons hit multiple parts so gunmasters can actually boss decently.
2. Give gunmasters grenade launchers so they have some form of AOE for trash mobbing.
   • Ideally, laser cannons would be tweaked such that they're better than grenade launchers for bosses with lots of hitboxes (i.e.: De Ragan), while allowing for grenades to be superior for mobbing.
3. Give Fortegunner S-rank longbows and boost the class' ATP ratio from 140% to 160%. This would not drown out the viability of other bow-wielding classes. They would still have good positives over fortegunner that would make them desirable over it for the bow in certain situations, while still differentiating FG from gunmaster enough in both equipment and raw damage to make it a viable choice:
   • Guntecher has access to support techs, albeit at the cost of ATA and slight ATP. Although it's single target potential is lessened with shotguns being reduced to A rank, it has s-rank crossbows and machineguns to compensate.
   • Protranser has a wider array of weapon types than fortegunner as well as being able to provide CC through traps, but its stats around the board are on the low side.
   • Who the fuck levels fortetecher past 10?
   • In relation to gunmaster, GM attacks faster, with less damage per shot, but still probably higher overall DPS, owing to the extra 10 levels of bullet PA. Fortegunner on the other hand has access to defense-ignoring, hyper-accurate bows.
   • Being a forteclass, FG also consumes 20% less PP with its native PAs.

 

On another note, twin pistols have to be a bit weaker than everything else to make up for their mobility. You can move and shoot them simultaneously when locking on. That being said, the mobility really isn't enough to justify their lack of DPS at this point. Buff them, but not by a lot. Shotguns still need to have decently higher overall DPS. Being that rifles have far more range and mostly are for killer shot anyway, there's some leeway with having twin pistols do the same, if not more DPS than them.

 

 

Edited May 7, 2019 by Noodles

[Seority]

I did forget about fortegunners, my apologies. I suppose if lasers could miltibix hit, that could work. Gunmasters just need some form of multi-hit function (just like techers can get) to be on par with melee users.

 

Getting the damage boosted/corrected for rangers&guns in general is what I'd definitely needed most.

[KanameChidori]

"Even used by a 180 or above on JP serv with PA lv 50," JP never had a level cap above 180....the damage was fine. Shotguns were hitting 2200-3000 per shot. That's 10-15k every trigger pull. The other weapon types were fine.  Look up any TA of a GM and it's 30 seconds or 45 seconds slower than FM. Which without a movement PA is perfectly acceptable. In fact GMs could do runs faster than AF pretty often. 

 

What you can expect when you're geared out. 

 

[Seed Express]

Just because a few novice players complain, is no grounds to ruin the game by adding speed increased weapons to one of the best classes in the game. None of these players have anywhere near endgame gear. They are using 0/10 weapons, level 25 photon arts, in parties of 6 on a gunmaster level 8 class. How are they going to complain that they aren't killing level 120 monsters fast enough in their novice parties of 6 when they are level 75?

[Aelphasy]

Now that I am gm 16 pa 35/41+, I think the overall damage are good enough. No need also to give a weapon (grenade launcher) that suit for the fortegunner, and make the class viable alongside of gunmaster.

Nevertheless, I remain in the idea that lasers of laser cannon need some modifications (hitbox, multihit) and twins need a decent boost.

In my opinion.  

[Aelphasy]

Some thoughts and feedback about guns and gunners changes  (11th May 2019s update) :

- The idea of impacting our power through gameplay is excellent (+distance,+dps and the CHR boost when close with shotgun). It's really a concept to highlight and keep in mind for the future. It must be kept.

- Changes about Killer Shot are good too. 32% chance of OS was a bit too high and leveling it a bit too long. The balance seems ok.

- Regarding the grenade launcher, although I appreciate the weapon, I think it should remain for the fortegunner, which is a class as interesting as the gunmaster, with its own qualities. The gunmaster is probably not the best class against bosses, but I think it's better to work on the laser cannon and remove let the grenade launcher.

- Let's be fair : the shotgun PA raise is too high. Divide by two the boost you gave, or go back to the Elemental Pourcentage or ATP (dunno which, the EP maybe) of the OG should be perfect.

What would be interesting to see :

        About Laser Cannon

- Allow it to multihit multi parts ennemies, especially bosses (ofc useless if you plan to let GM use grenade launcher on real server)

- Make it less situationnal by increase the laser hitbox (something like 20-30% should be enough, it's not pleasant at all to not hit the enemy who is not exactly on the line)

       About twin handguns

- The PA lvl rate seems a bit excessive : my lv27 twin freeze gain only 17% by emptying 3 hyper viper with cati bullet pp save. I suggest a small rate boost, like 15%.

- Give the elemental PA a decent boost (to both Elemental Percentage and ATP)

  Even if I do not know what is possible to do in terms of gameplay/mechanics, I propose some ideas : 

- When ennemies, expect bosses, have HP<90%, twin hgs gain an important damage boost (make the weapons good to finish trash mob ejected by fighter for example, and clear room a bit "smoothly")

- When the player has all his life, the twin handgun gain a small damage boost (like +5%), it forces you to play the weapon correctly, concentrating just as well on the dodge as on the attack.

[Matt]

28 minutes ago, Aelphasy said:

Let's be fair : the shotgun PA raise is too high.

Did you play Gunmaster on retail? People were hitting 3k per bullet which is 15k per shot. How much damage are you doing now? 

[Aelphasy]

12 hours ago, Matt said:

Did you play Gunmaster on retail? People were hitting 3k per bullet which is 15k per shot. How much damage are you doing now? 

80/gm20/pa41+ desta+hard power charge & agtaride, about 900 per bullet, 1200+ per critical. Knowing that everything is better (or almost) than Desta in terms of S shotgun and since I've not used yet grinding feature, I feel that's a bit too much.

edit : To be more precise, my PA are between 43-47, so it's normal that it hurts, but I think it would be good to have a slight reduction.

edit 2 : taking consideration of the HP boost when playing in a group, probably it's a correct boost... I think we have to wait for better weapons and a better level for a fairer opinion.

Edited May 13, 2019 by Aelphasy

[9mm]

Aelphasy math also check out with my experience so far. A+ post. 

Good reminder to people preaching retail that we are not in retail nor is the game functioning as such. We cannot emulate a vanilla experience and must go based on the facts in front of us. 

[Aelphasy]

I would like KS rework like what it supposed to. On Sinner Banquet S2/S3, the PA isnt usefull anymore. This is perhaps one of the missions where it will be most effective, and without it there is not much to do as GM.

[Midori Hoshi]

On official, incapacitate was really only useful for small enemies, 4-legged robots, and sorcerers. I think we should do the same for Clementine.

[Aelphasy]

Since they lowered it, its not the case anymore. Even whit current BiS (or very close) for using KS (Mizukairoh, bullet save, 41+) it took forever on 175+ robots to see them falling.

[SHOTGUN]

Opinion on guns from 2023:

Laser Cannons 
Yet another bullet size upgrade feels very comfy and on par with technique limit breaks and melee aoe options BUT why is it free? It should be removed and put as a GAS upgrade to a laser cannon section as expensive as possible. 

Twin Handguns
Fighgunner should have GAS upgrade with thgs for critical damage +10-15%
Heaven-types nerf is pointless, it's not even a nerf, it's annoying thing when you can't hit point-blank targets and have to switch weapons.
Penetration even after a range buff is useless.
Overall everything is fine with thgs and they help with lack of ranged multihit.

Rifles
Elemental shots and mayalee are useless even after a buff and only can be useful on worm bosses, that are very rare moment or mid-game soloing when you need buster low level enemies. Basically to actually make rifles playable, the latest rifle should be able to kill the latest small mobs with 2 normal hits or 1 critical, otherwise it's waste of time. Killer shot will remain it's use for something like scorpion types and sorcerers.

Shotguns
Useful on some bosses, but big multibox mobs are still immune to bullets and generaly using shotgun for mobbing is a noob moment, especially in a big parties.
Do we really had to nerf barada maga stun level? Even so, need to change status effects the way that stun replaces freeze and not vice versa as it's now.

 

[Penelope78]

It's baffling to consider altering a game based on complaints from novice players. Introducing speed-boosted weapons to a top-tier class seems unjustified. These players lack endgame gear, wielding subpar weapons and low-level photon arts in large parties. How can they expect to swiftly defeat level 120 monsters at level 75? The integrity of the game should prioritize balancing for seasoned players, ensuring a fair experience for all.