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BigTeef

Increase the rates closer to end days vanilla

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So when I picked up psu back in the days on my 360. I noticed rates were like 3x or 2.5 more compared to the usual 1.0. I got money fast, leveled fast, and was able to get to end game content within like a week. I understand why they increased the rates because of how slow progression was but in my opinion I think it was too fast. Early game is very much of a chore because it takes forever to get money especially if you are rusty as hell or just even new in general before getting multiple weapons that are different elements before you can fight optimally. 

My suggestion is to increase rates in general to like a 1.5. Where its fast enough to get enough money early game to have a viable character to make later leveling easier. My favorite thing to do with the game back in the day was to play dress up and coordinate outfits. And it was super easy to get money to buy clothing. Now its hard get back my old characters look because my money rates are a lot slower than what I was used too back in the day. I think a little boost to make the grind a little easier is a good way to help out solo players who don't often do groups outside of mandatory party content. 

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That's how the rates were before they tossed on those "End of Server life" bonuses just to like give the remaining players a good time. This reminds me exactly of PSU AOI 2009ish So it's fairly nice, seeing I have to actually try to get anywhere.

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42 minutes ago, Hanakotoba said:

That's how the rates were before they tossed on those "End of Server life" bonuses just to like give the remaining players a good time. This reminds me exactly of PSU AOI 2009ish So it's fairly nice, seeing I have to actually try to get anywhere.

The thing is though it follows the old school 200 hour grind to just get anywhere mindset that wow instilled into people for years. I don't know how I tolerated spending months to level up anything in ragnorak online back in the day. I just did it because I was brand new to mmos and diden't know better. Now im like 27. I see the flaws in constantly grinding to get a better boat.

If its a little faster it would make it feel like im not fighting a phone game. 

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Prolly, but at the same time we know the end of the game's content, making it less of an endless grind. And making the game have something to do, before everyone uses the same techniques to just get back and end game, and stagnate the game, from everyone being max leveled, and nothing to run, but only the efficient content.

Feels like an earnest version of the game, not boggled down by exp hacks. Prolly in events, or something to get the community together once, we got a more stable version, we'll see those boost.

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3 minutes ago, Hanakotoba said:

Prolly, but at the same time we know the end of the game's content, making it less of an endless grind. And making the game have something to do, before everyone uses the same techniques to just get back and end game, and stagnate the game, from everyone being max leveled, and nothing to run, but only the efficient content.

Feels like an earnest version of the game, not boggled down by exp hacks. Prolly in events, or something to get the community together once, we got a more stable version, we'll see those boost.

It doesn't need to even be like a significant boost. I agree that the old end days of the game was waaay too fast. But I don't really know their actual rates from back then. Be like 2x or 3x. It just seemed like over kill in my opinion. The early game is a slog when you got no money, when you start making alts you can negate that issue entirely because of the shared box in-between rooms. I played the psp version. I think that game had a very nice progression system. I had to grind but I dident need to grind my life away.

I think copying the psp game is a good way to go in my opinion in terms of progression time.

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Posted (edited)

I'm gonna have to agree with ya here... the meseta rates are waaayyy too slow for my liking... and with the prices things are now, it's pretty damn hard just to get some C rank weapons! Took me to get to lvl 10 just to have 10k. I think 1.5x would be quite reasonable too. Grinds like what's on now really sour the gameplay for me... feels like I'm getting nowhere... 

Edited by Dia

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I also agree w/r/t meseta gains, although this is more due to the fact that missions don't provide any meseta upon completion, forcing us to sell crafting materials if we want to upgrade from a saber to a brand or whatever.  I understand trying to restrict the flow of meseta into the game, but I've had to think about farming meseta in both the old and new servers in a way I never had to on the 360 official server, mostly by selling every crafting mat that drops when I only ever stored/ignored them before.

As for how to balance meseta generation so that it doesn't completely flat-line the economy later on down the road?  I doubt there's an easy fix, though some of the vanilla PSU missions had meseta rewards that should be more on par with what the server needs, to allow low level players to earn meseta without flooding the game.

 

Lets consider unsafe passage:

image.png.01766d3e0759de1bbeddd745e769076d.png

these meseta gains aren't too restrictive here, newbies get some for their needs but S2 gives enough to re-stock a scape doll if needed, which is probably more than enough.  Compare this to Rising Malice, which was a JP only mission that came in towards the end of PSU's official life that I chose at random:

image.png.d57c3a3cc4fd55b641ee5f2070ce7f77.png

Yowza that's a lot of meseta for a single mission.  Meseta was probably worthless with this much money being printed all at once.

Personally i'd advocate for only giving a maximum of 5k meseta as a mission reward in general, once the mission reached 5k meseta in clem's own tables, that's it.

Discussion on this has probably already been done to death on the old forums now, but I figured I'd show what I imagine the admins are trying to avoid.

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I'm hoping there more money when in A Rank Game,  this is pretty brutal, Im Level 15 and can't afford any techs really.    This is crippling for a Force that needs Tech PA

Definitely need to add 500 or more Meseta after game or something.  The way things are going it seems I'll be LV 50 and still can't afford Photon Charges.  

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Posted (edited)

I think it's important to feel a strong sense of progression early on in order to ensure the individual player forms some long term goals. I think we're predisposed to judging books by their covers. If it seems like the game is going to be slow and unrewarding, it's likely that one would give up early move on to something else. (That, or I'm projecting my rampant, unmedicated ADHD.)

That being said, I feel like PA rates and mission points are especially are too slow. I've gone through the first 20 levels using mostly rising strike with a pallette of 4 single sabers and it's just barely at level 9. One C rank white beast gets about ~5% of the first level's exp bar of an intermediate class but takes about 15-20 minutes to complete with a 6-person party.

150% to the outright doubling of rates across the board wouldn't be too unreasonable IMO. (Aside from meseta, given how high the sell prices are later on)

 

Edited by Noodles
i was drunk and couldn't grammar last night
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Looks like there good items at Duel in the Ruins.  I found Double Saber and sold for 18,500 and was surprised.  

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7 hours ago, Dia said:

I'm gonna have to agree with ya here... the meseta rates are waaayyy too slow for my liking... and with the prices things are now, it's pretty damn hard just to get some C rank weapons! Took me to get to lvl 10 just to have 10k. I think 1.5x would be quite reasonable too. Grinds like what's on now really sour the gameplay for me... feels like I'm getting nowhere... 

That is exactly why I made this thread is because of that initial wall you face to just get decent weapons for being low level.

I wonder if its possible to make like starter kits or something for new players so that way you don't need to touch rates across the board. Enough to get them started so they can help themselves. Though I most likely would spend it all on clothing and customizing my character lol. 

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Noodles said:

I think it's important to feel a strong sense of progression early on in order to ensure the individual player forms some long term goals. I think we're predisposed to judging books by their covers. If it seems like the game is going to be slow and unrewarding, it's that one would give up early move on to something else. (That, or I'm projecting my rampant, unmedicated ADHD.)

That being said, I feel like PA rates and mission points are especially are too slow. I've gone through the first 20 levels using mostly rising strike on with a pallette of 4 single sabers and it's just barely at level 9. One C rank white beast gets about ~5% of the first level's exp bar of an intermediate class but takes about 15-20 minutes to complete with a 6-person party

 

Bingo! The early game is absolutely killing my will to play! Even playing against lvl 20 or 25 enemies doesn't get you much meseta! It's fun playing with an abosulte crap ton of people trying to get money, but at one point it's just extremely annoying... can't really get anything I want.

And the PAs? I barely just got to lvl 16 (my character I mean) yesterday and finally got a twin knife skill up to 11. I've had them since I was lvl 3 and almost exclusively used only them, constantly using the PA. Mission points wise getting the non-starting types up takes forever. I got Wartecher halfway through yesterday, played a load of missions, and I'm not even halfway to lvl 2! 

It's just really damn annoying and kills the mood! 

Edited by Dia

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I'd like to chime in agreement with the others on this subject. My friends and I played a good 6 hours or so yesterday. I used the saber you start with as a hunter until I was lucky enough to find a better one (Brand I think?) and Rising Strike. I got Frozen Hit for my handgun. In all those hours of gameplay, Rising Strike which I had used so much just barely made it to level 11 on our second to last mission. Frozen Hit, which I used rarely and mainly on bosses for some range, was at level 8. I don't know if its just a bug with Rising Strike, or maybe all the hunter PAs are slow while the Ranger/Force PAs level normally. It was discouraging however, to grind to level 20 using default gear and PAs and make little progress on them.

The meseta gains are also a pain. You have to decide if you want consumables/to restock, or if you want PAs or armor/units. Forget customizing your character or room, that's out of the question. Drop rates on everything seems to be low; there could be a mob of a dozen or so enemies and 2-3 will drop something. If it's not a meager 30-50 meseta, then you're out of luck. I can't imagine on Force classes who need a variety of techs or Protransers who need to restock their traps after every run.  The best Forces currently seem to be Acrotechers with the buffs/debuffs and a saber or whip of their choice with one PA to attack. Protransers have no place since they can't buy traps after 2-3 missions.

Currently, the game feels great and the content updates are wonderfully implemented! But the PA and meseta rates feel like V1 PSU. 2006-2007 PSU. Pre-AOTI PSU. It's not ideal especially when many consider the game started getting good after AOTI released. Therefore, I would like to kindly request for the team to consider raising some numbers. We want to play and find bugs and enjoy your developments, but please understand these rates feel slavish as of now.

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Posted (edited)

image.png.d57c3a3cc4fd55b641ee5f2070ce7f77.png

Yeah we don't need that much. I would divide that by half at the very least.  

Don't get me wrong, the old days were great. But not everything about the old days were that great. Spending months to level and grind was the absolute worst. Which turned me off to mmo's in general during my teen years. PSU was I think the only mmo where I actually got to a really high level and experienced the intended content because I didn't have to take forever to get there. 

Edited by BigTeef

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We are missing meseta mission clear rewards, box drops, and area drops. If you take that into consideration, maybe the current game seems better balanced / reasonable? Another thing to consider is that the game just started like a day ago so everyone is poor and weak. After some time when people are higher levels, they will start to sell items in player shops, which means new players would have more items available to buy, for cheaper prices than at the NPC.

As for mission points and PA exp, I think both are just right. All missions give decent MP now, and rare missions give 5x MP. I've only used techs but the rate of PA exp for them feels just right too. I leveled all techs with these rates twice, actually. Both times took about 600 hours, which is totally reasonable.

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24 minutes ago, Midori Hoshi said:

Both times took about 600 hours, which is totally reasonable.

Oh god

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41 minutes ago, Midori Hoshi said:

We are missing meseta mission clear rewards, box drops, and area drops. If you take that into consideration, maybe the current game seems better balanced / reasonable? Another thing to consider is that the game just started like a day ago so everyone is poor and weak. After some time when people are higher levels, they will start to sell items in player shops, which means new players would have more items available to buy, for cheaper prices than at the NPC.

I think the biggest issue is that the NPC shop prices are set as if all of this stuff has already been implemented when that's currently not the case and may not be the case for some time. Rather than upping the amount of Meseta dropping maybe NPC shop prices could be lowered until more of these features are added in? Right now I feel like I have to choose between buying mate items or saving up for basic weapon/armor upgrades as enemy drop rates are too low to feasibly rely on most of my gear and that just doesn't feel good. 

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I am in full agreeance with this tbh. Especially PA rates, it should not take this long to level up striking PA's. At the very least increase the rate at which they level until 21, because most striking PA's are barely fully functional until that point (lvl 11 for PA's that only have two parts to them like all one-handed weapons), then after that sure, I wouldn't mind having PA's take forever to level, but not before then.

We also really need some better method of getting meseta early on like the aforementioned missing mission rewards, especially for those that aren't adept at the game will struggle to balance out restocking healing items and buying basic gear, because the drop rates for those are god awful as they are. Also why are the PSPortable2 PA's 2 Million Meseta, I don't care who you are, you're not getting that within a reasonable time, and besides shouldn't we have access to them a lot sooner than that? So we can, you know test them for any potential bugs? Only having the most dedicated players who are able to put up with the super sluggish grind are going to reliably get those, and if I'm being blunt, that's not a reliable sample size since they're likely going to keep their mouth shut in the event they end up being WAY more powerful than they were intended to be, I've seen it happen all to often with other games (such as Warframe). 

Mission points should be buffed atleast by a tiny bit, aswell as EXP rates, 1.5X at most I'd say. Wouldn't want to reach max Level/Type too fast.

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6 hours ago, Midori Hoshi said:

We are missing meseta mission clear rewards, box drops, and area drops. If you take that into consideration, maybe the current game seems better balanced / reasonable? Another thing to consider is that the game just started like a day ago so everyone is poor and weak. After some time when people are higher levels, they will start to sell items in player shops, which means new players would have more items available to buy, for cheaper prices than at the NPC.

As for mission points and PA exp, I think both are just right. All missions give decent MP now, and rare missions give 5x MP. I've only used techs but the rate of PA exp for them feels just right too. I leveled all techs with these rates twice, actually. Both times took about 600 hours, which is totally reasonable.

I absolutely agree that MP, PA xp, and EXP are in a decent spot right now.  It's good to know that meseta rewards are missing, since that means the current meseta squeeze wasn't probably a choice by design.

I'm not sure how exactly the effective meseta gain rates will be at higher levels, but I imagine the intention behind the JP-only PAs being 2 million reflectes how grindy I heard they were to obtain on official servers.  I bet "how quickly players are getting money" is one of the things the devs are keeping an eye on here as well.  Keep in mind that at least in the old servers I was making more than enough meseta by level 60-ish partly because of the lack of synthesis boards for everything.  At that point I kinda stopped playing because I was able to buy S-rank everything at that point and there wasn't anything else to do.

In the end though, I do feel that a lot of us (myself included) are older, have jobs now, and are seeing the same grind in a different light.  Hopefully appropriate rates get figured out as time goes on.

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I enjoy the current rates, (this is speaking from a personal opinion), but on the topic of conversation about meseta.

People that have hit cap, have earned over 2 - 4mil meseta already. (This buys you pretty much anything)

Getting enough money for a weapon is easy enough, sure you won't be able to buy like 6 weapons to fill your palette but there wouldn't be much point, right? You're only going to upgrade it in 10 levels.

 

This is my personal opinion, and not a reflection on what the Clementine team thinks. but I'm happy with where things are currently at.

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15 minutes ago, Gnome said:

I enjoy the current rates, (this is speaking from a personal opinion), but on the topic of conversation about meseta.

People that have hit cap, have earned over 2 - 4mil meseta already. (This buys you pretty much anything)

Getting enough money for a weapon is easy enough, sure you won't be able to buy like 6 weapons to fill your palette but there wouldn't be much point, right? You're only going to upgrade it in 10 levels.

 

This is my personal opinion, and not a reflection on what the Clementine team thinks. but I'm happy with where things are currently at.

Didn't they have to play the same mission over and over to do that though?

If you increase rates across the board for money drops, people can experience the game normally without spending all of their time on neudaiz. Because its now viable to play normal missions in different areas and planets. 

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If you're referring to White Beast, no they didn't just do white beast.

"Increasing the rates across the board" won't make people play in different areas, they'll just find the hot new mission that seems the most optimal.

You either play the game, casually and for fun (like myself) or you grind like hell and find it to be a chore, which I don't.

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6 minutes ago, Gnome said:

If you're referring to White Beast, no they didn't just do white beast.

"Increasing the rates across the board" won't make people play in different areas, they'll just find the hot new mission that seems the most optimal.

You either play the game, casually and for fun (like myself) or you grind like hell and find it to be a chore, which I don't.

Playing it casually doesn't give you much freedom though outside of playing whenever you want. Especially if one of the casual things you enjoyed doing the most has this large price gate on it in which you have to farm a single mission over and over because other missions don't really have good meista drops. I was showing my friend the game because he never played it and we ran into the issue of constantly spending all of our money on restocking on consumables. We are still sporting standard gear because we haven't got any good weapon drops and have enough money to look for them via the player shops. It seems until like level 20 you will start experiencing having more freedom in terms of spending power. 

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42 minutes ago, Gnome said:

I enjoy the current rates, (this is speaking from a personal opinion), but on the topic of conversation about meseta.

People that have hit cap, have earned over 2 - 4mil meseta already. (This buys you pretty much anything)

Getting enough money for a weapon is easy enough, sure you won't be able to buy like 6 weapons to fill your palette but there wouldn't be much point, right? You're only going to upgrade it in 10 levels.

 

This is my personal opinion, and not a reflection on what the Clementine team thinks. but I'm happy with where things are currently at.

Well, only the most try-hard of players are going to stick to the dominant strategy, because you know they're try hards, evening out the play field by making other areas better will give more options for the average player. This is not an issue of the dominant strategy existing in the first place, it's an issue of the dominant strategy being so overwhelming better than the other options that aren't. Going off of the minority is quite honestly a really poor way of balancing things. It'll help the players that don't know what the dominant strategy is, which is what your team should be focusing on, not "Oh well so and so managed to do it". No, that is an incredibly small sample size and does not represent the majority, there have already been a good amount of players stating their distaste for how overly grindy the early game is, myself and OP included. The early game is supposed to be the LEAST grindy part of the game, not the most grindy.

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1 hour ago, Gnome said:

I enjoy the current rates, (this is speaking from a personal opinion), but on the topic of conversation about meseta.

People that have hit cap, have earned over 2 - 4mil meseta already. (This buys you pretty much anything)

Getting enough money for a weapon is easy enough, sure you won't be able to buy like 6 weapons to fill your palette but there wouldn't be much point, right? You're only going to upgrade it in 10 levels.

 

This is my personal opinion, and not a reflection on what the Clementine team thinks. but I'm happy with where things are currently at.

I think the point of what a lot of us are getting at is that the early game doesn't give you nearly enough meseta to even have the choice of upgrading your gear unless you get lucky with drops. I've been playing solo and just hit 21 and only recently got new weapons because I spent time grinding lower level quests just for meseta for instance. It took a lot of effort just to get 3 star equipment when I'm able to equip 6* stuff and it just doesn't feel good when stuff feels like such a slog.

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