Problem with Drop Rate

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SkyMax1
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Joined: Wed Sep 27, 2017 2:23 pm

Problem with Drop Rate

Postby SkyMax1 » Fri Jul 27, 2018 2:21 am

After logging back on, and blasting my way to lvl 178, I found this drop rate system to be quite problematic at times.

1. Either your drops become completely broken, unless you leave party, and re-join.
2. Players have their friends afk outside while they hunt. and receive their drops via reload.
3. Use reload to check if others left drops behind.

Within my very short span of time I have played PSU on this server, I have met players that have used these methods.
Evenually I learned why some players where reloading soo much, and afk in full parties.

SO, here's my story

I learned about it.
Made my VM's, connected via thin client ( Separate system now btw )
And leveled additional characters ( took ages ) to lvl 100+

And apparently, I am the problem?

I understand Marmalade wanted to create a fairer system, and give every player their own sepereately drops like PSO2, however...
Within every single game I have every seen/played, with these type of drop systems. Players will always ask friends to afk, buy extra equipment (laptops, tablets, and phones) , anything to increase their chances.

However these methods are not exploits. They are not using a MOD, hacking tool, or using some cheat code within the game. These are Oversights of design of implenting this type of drop rate system into PSU, which never had it.

GR Dragon

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Midori Hoshi
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Re: Problem with Drop Rate

Postby Midori Hoshi » Fri Jul 27, 2018 3:41 am

First off, keep in mind the game is still a work in progress, so you can't expect everything to be 100% perfect at this point. But when the game is actually done, we obviously need to handle this better.

The game should encourage multiplayer. I mean, actual multiplayer. It shouldn't encourage soloing with multiple accounts or making progress somehow while AFK.

Hopefully we can all agree on this goal. After that, it's just a matter of coming up with ideas and methods to stop it. Some people have suggested simple written rules against this stuff, and that's a perfectly fine idea. There is no good reason not to have rules against it, but I'd go a step further and actually design the game itself in a way so it's not worth a player's time or effort to try to exploit it like that in the first place.

The /reload thing is likely an easy fix. I imagine you could just write a line of code that prevents other players' items from showing up for you when you reload. The current loot system was quickly made and it has some bugs. The final product will likely handle it much better.

AFKing in a party to get free mission rewards will likely be a problem, just like it was on official. Like Sega did for official, we can make it so you have to be inside the mission area for a portion of the time in order to get the reward.

Now the big problem becomes, how do you prevent one player from making 6 free accounts and soloing with 6 accounts to get items faster. Unlike 6 real players, the 6 account solo player can't properly control all 6 accounts at once. Take advantage of that, and give the game an enemy stat scale system like many others do. The general idea is that for each additional party member who joins, the enemies would have higher HP and boosted stats.

For real players, not only would this help solve the problem of difficulty balance for various party sizes, but it should also end up discouraging the solo player with 6 accounts from abusing the personal loot system. If you try to solo with 6 accounts, that means the enemies will be much stronger, so you may struggle to fight them alone and it will end up taking you a lot longer, ultimately making the whole 6 account thing not really worth your time. This, along with the risk of getting caught and being banned would probably be enough to discourage anyone from doing it.

And while I'm at it, an easy solution to AFK attack PA leveling is to put a limit on how many times an enemy can heal themselves, or make them heal for 0 HP after a while.

tl;dr
In the end, we don't want to design the game in a way where the best way to play it is solo or AFK or multiboxing. Let's learn from the mistakes of other games and make this game as good as possible.
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SkyMax1
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Re: Problem with Drop Rate

Postby SkyMax1 » Fri Jul 27, 2018 2:47 pm

Frankly PSU has never truly been balance.

On 360 servers, or JP PSU, high level players never teamed up with randoms anyway.

- Most actually slowed you down, because of spamming fighter knockback arts etc etc.
- Only 1 drop for all 6 players, so those who didn't help, or make run time faster got the boot.
- Missions with blue gates, players most often afk'ed or said BRB in mission, and you got stuck waiting.

There were, Soo many other reasons to keep party small, or play in just your selected group of friends.

I truely understand your trying to bring PSU into 2018 drop systems, and trying your best way to figure out how to balance the game ( apparently better than SEGA did ). It doesn't matter what type of system you make, players will always find the best methods to hunt for loot.

Regarding your ideas of multiplayer

If you decide to make enemies stronger as more players join, that will be downfall of your dream of multiplayer.
I forgot what game had this type of system, but it actually force players to keep parties smaller, or only team up with stronger players, because why would you take a complete stranger, who happens to make your missions slower, but increases your differculty?

The only way, to actually balance that type of system, is to sort of :/ do what PSO2 did.

-More players more enemies
-Faster enemies dies, = more mobs and bonuses spawn in that one location.
-Time limit missions that only run for short time, so the faster you run, more missions you get.

But that will make PSU a completely different game :/ and take one hell of a rewrite.

Regarding solo'ers

GM / MF etc have no reason in PSU to hunt. or perform solo parties, as loot is currently at the 2nd floor :/ I know this will change on reboot, however GM, MF still didn't care much, and you only need 2-3 of each weapon.

However when it comes to FIGHTERS in PSU, my god, they actually have to hunt like crazy for gear.

The current activity of players on Clementine server, which plays as FIGHTERS Classes.

OLD TEMPLE
Hunting for GEKS, MUGUNBURGA.

Start mission
Clear block 1 only
Check for drops
Exit the mission and restart

5TH FLOOR MISSION
Hunting for Ashviens

Start Mission TEST
Clear 2nd spawn
check for drops
Exit mission

Your starting to see the pattern here.

COAST
Hunting for Buti's
Start mission
CLear block 1
check for drops
Exit mission restart

These players are pretty much solo'in these mission, sure they could as for help... But its not needed.
What you have to keep in mind, the community of PSU clementine is not big to support parties of 6 all over the place.
Even if it did, why would you need to party up, looking for gear anyway?

The only way to force people to play mutliplayer, is to force a reason to.

- Place one custom insane mission, like it req lvl 160-180 or something, Boosted drop rate via players in mission, crazy amount of mobs, and very high difficulty lvl,

New Armors
New GM weapons
New MF
Almost all FM/Fighter weapons

Ofcourse you will need to balance how you place the mobs, to ensure when players start the mission, no matter the class, or loot looking for, they have a reason to finish the mission, rather then kill what you need then exit.

Some advice.
Don't focus too much on stopping players who.

- AFK
- Multiple accounts
- Reload ( doesn't dub drops, just shows what drops by other players )

All these methods will always been done one way or other, depending on what that player is looking for.
However, if some type multiplayer type mission, completely made it pointless to solo, any of the mission listed above, for hunting.
Then you have actually FIX every single problem, while getting the multiplayer you wanted.

Because why would I Solo, when its faster to party up, to get what im looking for.


Well, you guys done a great job bring PSU back from the dead, so anything is better than nothin right lol :D

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Midori Hoshi
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Re: Problem with Drop Rate

Postby Midori Hoshi » Fri Jul 27, 2018 3:16 pm

Why do you assume the enemy stat scale system would discourage multiplayer? I didn't say the enemies should have 6x or higher stats in 6 player parties. It could be something closer to +30% HP and +3% stats per additional party member. That would mean that the additional party member still ends up making it easier/faster/better for you overall, because they are able to contribute more than the enemy stats increase. They would have to be absolute dead-weight for it to end up being a negative.

Like you said, PSU official was a solo only game. What's the point of even having an online multiplayer game if it's designed to be played solo only? People are already working on a solo PSU fan project called Despair and Hope. Clementine is an online multiplayer fan project, so it's important that multiplayer is worth doing.
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SkyMax1
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Re: Problem with Drop Rate

Postby SkyMax1 » Fri Jul 27, 2018 4:14 pm

Your not looking at what the community of PSU Clementine is currently doing atm.

Players lvl 90-120 Come on 6-10pm, and mostly sit outside talking.
Players lvl 130-180 (If they are FIGHTER CLasses) Only do missions listed above post, and stay there and solo. Block 1 or 1 mob group restart.
Players who chose GM/MF Just care about levels, however most stop after level 100+ as it becomese the same thing, and no reason to hunt anything. They mostly stay at TEST mission.

Why would Fighters need others for Block 1 restart for hunting?
And why would they what to increase differculty level?
Most players aren't elite players, and play whatever and fun classes, if you make a system which slows down serious players, and make their hunts slower in anyway, you will be forcing them to perfer solo more.

You actually will be giving them reason to.

You need to focus on methoed which will make the most active serious players, willing to join any party of 6.
And that mission need to have a reason why they are aswell.

Not all of us like Discord, idle at 5th floor, chat to players.
When we play, we figure out the fastest method to achieve our goal, and if those goal scream solo play, we won't party up.

The only time players of psu clementine party up

lvl 1-90,
5th floor mission, because the focus is levelling up, and earning Meseta to buy items at 2nd floor, after that, frankly there is no reason at all.

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Midori Hoshi
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Re: Problem with Drop Rate

Postby Midori Hoshi » Fri Jul 27, 2018 5:34 pm

Oh, I'm aware of all of that. I'm not forgetting about serious players. Hell, I'm probably the most serious player.

You are talking about the current game on the live server. I'm talking about the finished game in the future. The live server isn't getting updated anymore. There isn't too much point in complaining about stuff like people doing the first room and resetting over and over because that stuff will never be fixed on that server. What's important is the rewrite server and continuing to add and improve it until we have a good, finished game.

It's entirely possible for the finished game to actually encourage multiplayer and that's what I want to have happen. That's all I'm saying here. Unless you would prefer a solo only game like how Sega did it on official, we should be in agreement.
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SkyMax1
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Re: Problem with Drop Rate

Postby SkyMax1 » Fri Jul 27, 2018 6:00 pm

Otheres perfer multi player, others perfer solo.

Im sure as long you take in account what players hunt for at end game, and make it better worth their time to hunt, within Multi-player mission.

thats all that's needed for your vision PSU.
Im sure you know better than anyone, about drop tables etc etc. Im sure you will find the perfect balance.

Once again, enough though my Sky's were rudely removed lol
I hope Everything come together and thanks for PSU experience in 2018.

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Midori Hoshi
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Re: Problem with Drop Rate

Postby Midori Hoshi » Fri Jul 27, 2018 6:11 pm

I can see why you would be upset at being punished for a rule that you had no way of knowing existed. As far as you knew, you were playing the game the best way. It bothers me too. Not sure why we are doing it that way.

We should have a topic on the forums with the actual rules clearly written for everyone to read and understand. The discord server has a rules section, but the game itself keeps the rules hidden from the players, but at the same time expects them to follow the rules.
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Marmalade
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Re: Problem with Drop Rate

Postby Marmalade » Sat Jul 28, 2018 12:56 am

I'm going to be honest, I still don't see why it's such a big deal that I kindly asked you to stop. It's not like I'm witch hunting you, and I didn't even punish you. You kept all your items? I took nothing from you. I didn't call you a cheater, I didn't call you a hacker, I didn't say you were a problem, I didn't even accuse you of using anything; you openly admitted to using VM software to multi-client, even though the client naturally has a check against multi-clienting.

Sure you might not have seen a rule and I'm not even getting on your case about it. All I did was ask you to stop. Initially I had simple mailed you, but it was missed (probably you didn't see it, no problem). Kicking the 4 idle characters you had in the lobby got your attention at least, and that's all. They weren't banned and you weren't penalized.

From all of this, after I made a simple request that you and the others stop (They were nice, they stopped and understood when I asked), all I've really gotten is "No Marmalade, you're wrong in your own domain. You don't know what you intended.".
Which essentially is the same as me taking a shit in your dish washer, and then arguing the fact that it fits in your dish washer, so it's a design flaw and not anything else, y'know? You didn't tell me before hand not to shit in your dish washer. Or maybe hopping a barbed wire fence, and then getting assy with the land owner because they don't want you there, but the fence wasn't higher and gloves and a blanket could let you climb it anyway.

At the end of the day, it's things like this that people don't bother talking to us about, that will probably destroy the economy and cause me days of grief to fix after the fact. You might think it far fetched, but it happens a ridiculous amount. "Don't tell the mods lol". Besides it's not exactly natural to boot up 5 VM's and manipulate the drop loot list and at least not wonder shouldn't these drops be bound to the owner?. They should, but apparently it's not working.

If anything, you've brought a bug to my attention that others haven't, and I appreciate that. I'm not trying to stab you, I'm just asking you all not to do it. S'not really more than that, and it's not difficult x_x

...Besides, I'd at least ask before filling your dish washer >_>
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SkyMax1
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Re: Problem with Drop Rate

Postby SkyMax1 » Sat Jul 28, 2018 2:43 pm

Understandable.

Frankly im properly the most open player on any server, if I figure something out, I talk about it asap. You won't find me within some dark corner taking advantages of it.

I don't join other players, much, but I do help when it's needed.

I made my Sky's VM 4days ago, and openly place them at the 5th floor at all times, I always talk about what the skys where for, when anyone ask.
I even called them all SKYS so everyone knows it me.
The second I figured out what reload did, which saved just abit of time, as I didn't have to bring other sky's in mission anymore for loot.
I talked about it, and brought it to everyone's attention ( you were there at that time ).

Well.... and to few who properly didn't know about it yet.

Frankly you did kinda accuse me hiding it?
Come on really? I must be quite bloody stupid if that was the case, I called them all Sky's and said It was me to everyone lol multi times every single day lol, while explaining what it's for.

I apologise if it seemed like I completely ignored you, that was not the case. I had the VM's running on monintors all around me, I did not see any simple mail pop up. Kinda chosen the wrong Sky to contact lol 1 in 6 chances, you shouldn't do any gambling lol jkjk

Even though they were on 24-7 and openly talking about it, it quite sad that the second they become lvl 100 :/ and ready to hunt lol They get slapped.
That amount of work is more than 70% of players who play PSU-Clementine.

I will say though, While you have a drop rate, which every account/player get their own drops, and can trade it. Anyone who take PSU seriously will find away to increase their chances as much as possible. That's not braking the game or taking a shyt in someones washing machine, that's the best way to play.
VM's, Extra Desktops, Laptops, or having friends just log in and pick up drops you, there are many ways for those players to increase their chances.

I kinda finish my goal on PSU-Clementine anyway, just fixing up a FM was just me finding something to continue player for.
You don't have to worry about any Sky's running around. Not even my max lvl.

I can talk/just so ever slightly complain about the action taken lol poor sky's..
However End of the day it's your server, but you should let someone else be the enforcer of whatever made up rules you want followed.

Not trying to be rude in anyway :/
As a player though just slightly tick off lol.


Added Information

Each VM has been through SYSPREP generalize, So each VM, has different foot print, its properly why the clients checks don't work.
Not really a computer geek, but if the client searches for the same foot print, like if a VM wasn't SYSREP, it would properly spot it I think, as the same network ID and WIndows whatever ID would show up, not the case on SYSPREP machine, far as the clients knows it completely different machines running the client.

Or maybe it has problems catching Hyper V, Vm's running windows 10?
But I'm sure, once you fix the drop rate to account bound only.. If will kill any need for any of this anyway. so it doesn't matter lol


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