Race Change Discussion

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Ricewind
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Re: Race Change Discussion

Postby Ricewind » Thu Feb 18, 2016 8:54 pm

I think the stat table Midori presented is fine.
I liked the different traits in the different races.

Jovie
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Re: Let's Talk Races.

Postby Jovie » Fri Feb 19, 2016 4:22 pm

Seority wrote:
Jovie wrote:In my opinion, racial stat differentiation is an archaic game design philosophy that has no place in a large, multiplayer game wherein balance and fairness is a concern. In a single-player game or implemented cleverly, I wouldn't mind it, but PSU doesn't implement it cleverly and we likely don't have a way to change that.

I agree with you on this Jovie. I would prefer everyone have the opportunity to play any race they want with no Stat differences. Unfortunately, as you said, the Phantasy Star series is keen to implement specific racial traits and I'm unsure if its possible to change it much on Clementine.

While, I'm for shortening the Stat gap between the races, I would rather keep the racial bonuses the same (beasts blastbadge, cast suv, etc). So maybe something like a 22% difference between Newman and CAST TP is more acceptable?


Don't get me wrong, I'm not against SUVs or Nanoblasts. I think those are fine, nor do I want to see them removed. I would like to see humans and newmans get something equivalent. However, the problem with giving newmans a bonus to, say, TP is that it still pigeon-holes them into a specific class. Or, probably more accurately, pigeon-holes everyone else out of a specific class.

Neither SUVs nor Nanoblasts work much better or worse with any specific classes, and they're useable no matter what class you're playing. An increased TP, on the other hand, means that newmans would be preferred for tech-based classes. And that bonus doesn't help the Newman Fighgunner, or Fighmaster at all. It creates a similar problem as before, though admittedly, slightly less egregious.

If the creation of some form of race-bound extra slot item equippable at level 20 is impossible, then by all means, give them some form of bonus, just know what consequences (good and bad) that will have.

shade
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Re: Race Change Discussion

Postby shade » Fri Feb 19, 2016 5:02 pm

SUVs can be given to Human and Newman, so if they've more "balanced" base stats (compared to the CAST and Beast ones), they shouldn't suffer any lack ('cause their SUV would be almost as efficient as the CAST ones, which wasn't the case on JP).

In fact, it'd be better to bring back to PSU the PSPo2 mirage blast, but it would ask times and efforts, apparently too much for SEGA whom didn't bother to do that.
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Jovie
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Re: Race Change Discussion

Postby Jovie » Fri Feb 19, 2016 5:30 pm

I highly doubt humans and newmans could be given SUVs. They don't get the meters for it, and I'd imagine adding meters would have to be a client-side hack. What I'd like to see is something like some extra units for humans that each increases resistance to a specific status effect. Maybe something that increases a newman's movement speed so they run a little faster, or whatever. Basically something that feels in flavor/lore for the race that distinguishes them and plays into their strengths without forcing them into playing one class or another.

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Seority
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Re: Race Change Discussion

Postby Seority » Fri Feb 19, 2016 5:47 pm

Jovie wrote:I highly doubt humans and newmans could be given SUVs.


They can have SUVs, they did in JP.

Jovie wrote:Basically something that feels in flavor/lore for the race that distinguishes them and plays into their strengths without forcing them into playing one class or another.


I think if you lower the stat gaps between races, it would make it easier to play classes that differ from that races strength. You're not severely penalized by race to play a certain class outside of it's strength. (FO Casts for example.)
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Blade Takehiko
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Re: Race Change Discussion

Postby Blade Takehiko » Fri Feb 19, 2016 6:07 pm

shade wrote:SUVs can be given to Human and Newman, so if they've more "balanced" base stats (compared to the CAST and Beast ones), they shouldn't suffer any lack ('cause their SUV would be almost as efficient as the CAST ones, which wasn't the case on JP).

In fact, it'd be better to bring back to PSU the PSPo2 mirage blast, but it would ask times and efforts, apparently too much for SEGA whom didn't bother to do that.


They brought starlight cluster to PSU JP so i think mirage blasts could've been thrown in too, pretty much an SUV is the same as a mirage blast, so it could've been implemented without issue, but for some reason, they chose to be lazy and just rip SUVs from casts and implement them to humans/Newmans. I'm sure they had their reasons since they closed the server shortly that year anyway.
The blade that once cut the wings of a devil.
Kento Twilight Beast lvl1 Fighgunner[Clementine]
Argus Kelgron Beast lvl1 Masterforce[Clementine]
Roland Beast lvl1 Acrofighter[Clementine]
None lvl???? Demigod[Unknown?]

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Jovie
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Re: Race Change Discussion

Postby Jovie » Fri Feb 19, 2016 6:27 pm

If the difference is so subtle that it's barely noticeable, why have a difference? Just to say there is? I'm of the opinion that, if you want a statistical difference, make it a noticeable difference, or don't create a difference at all. I'm generally against statistical differences in the races, but if you want one, make it count, or it's basically worthless. As noble as it might be to want to come to some form of compromise on this issue, sadly it's just not the kind of problem that can be met halfway on. There's either a difference, or there's not.

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Blade Takehiko
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Re: Race Change Discussion

Postby Blade Takehiko » Fri Feb 19, 2016 7:52 pm

Jovie wrote:If the difference is so subtle that it's barely noticeable, why have a difference? Just to say there is? I'm of the opinion that, if you want a statistical difference, make it a noticeable difference, or don't create a difference at all. I'm generally against statistical differences in the races, but if you want one, make it count, or it's basically worthless. As noble as it might be to want to come to some form of compromise on this issue, sadly it's just not the kind of problem that can be met halfway on. There's either a difference, or there's not.


I'm fine with the racial differences, But i'm not fine with how punishing it can be toward certain races when they choose to be something less commonly used. And the class bonuses further throws that off, For a race that isn't suited towards those sets I don't believe it's right to complete turn it against them completely to the point that they would be considered garbage, I just want to make it so that it's not so "severe."
The blade that once cut the wings of a devil.
Kento Twilight Beast lvl1 Fighgunner[Clementine]
Argus Kelgron Beast lvl1 Masterforce[Clementine]
Roland Beast lvl1 Acrofighter[Clementine]
None lvl???? Demigod[Unknown?]

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shade
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Re: Race Change Discussion

Postby shade » Fri Feb 19, 2016 10:43 pm

I wouldn't mind to see the racial differences removed. However, getting barely noticeable racial differences, something à la FFXIV for exemple, isn't a bad idea : disturbers could continue to argue you don't play the game correctly because you didn't choose the right gender, race and type combination when casual or core gamers could ignoring them and really enjoying the game with a char who have nothing to be ashamed of in comparison to the right choice.
ぐぇぐぇ。ぼよよん。

Jovie
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Re: Race Change Discussion

Postby Jovie » Fri Feb 19, 2016 11:22 pm

Shade brings up a good point, and one I was about to address. A statistical difference between races invites elitism in the community. No matter how slight you make the gap, there will always be a right and wrong choice. Now, I realize the instances of this happening will likely be few and far between, but why even give it room to manifest?

I feel like my stance on this issue has been misconstrued somewhat, so I think I may need to clarify, at the risk of sounding like a broken record, but I'm not against making the races different. On the contrary, I want there to be a difference. What I'm against is making any one race better than another at any class. I just feel like making the difference using stats is boring, lazy, and limiting. I'd like to see something more creative and balanced than that, permitted it's possible.

What I would like to know at this point is why supporters of different stats want to keep the difference. I've given my reasons as to why I feel it's bad design, but the only rebuttal I've gotten, for the most part, is, "I'm fine with it." I'm having a hard time figuring out why, because I'm so far on the other side of the proverbial fence. So what do you guys like about racial stat differentiation? Why should it be kept in?


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