Race Change Discussion

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Blade Takehiko
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Race Change Discussion

Postby Blade Takehiko » Tue Feb 16, 2016 11:16 am

The purpose of this post is to have proper balancing of the 4 Races, here are the run down of what is now.

*Beasts
HP: A EVP: C
ATP: A STA: A
DFP: B TP: C
ATA: D MST: C
Able to use Nanoblasts. These are transformations that allow them to transform for some time, increasing their statistics.
Have strong offensive and defensive stats
Gain stat bonuses for the Hunter and Fortefighter Types.
Racially suffer from bad ATA

*Humans
HP: C EVP: B
ATP: C STA: A
DFP: B TP: B
ATA: C MST: B
They're most all-rounded of all races, which might make them an attractive choice for people that are still not sure what type they would like best.
Their stats make them good candidates for use with the expert types.
Have high TP in comparison to Beasts and Casts.
They are able to use Crea weapons.
They gain stat bonuses for the Fighgunner, Guntecher, Wartecher, Protranser, Acrofighter, and Acrotecher types.
They do not statistically excel in anything, meaning that for every Guardian type there is an arguably superior race.
Like Newmans, Humans have no racial special ability (e.g. SUV or Nanoblast).[lies, They have SUVs.. On JP.]

*Newmans
HP: D EVP: A
ATP: D STA: A
DFP: C TP: A
ATA: B MST: A
They excel in TP. They have an affinity for TECHNICs. They are the most obvious racial choice for Forces.
Their Accuracy is good, too, making them able Rangers.
Newmans have a better TECHNIC Defense due to their high MST.
They have the highest EVP.
They are able to wield Crea weapons.
They gain stat bonuses as Force, Fortetecher, Guntecher, Wartecher, and Fighgunner types.
They are generally the least adept Hunters.
Their Defense is under par compared to Beasts and Casts.
They have no special racial ability. [Lies! Human/Newman SUVs!]

CASTs
HP: B EVP: D
ATP: B END: A
DFP: A TP: D
ATA: A MST: D
Able to use SUV Weapons. These are Photon Blast-esque attacks that do massive damage.
They excel in Attack Power making them great Hunters.
Their ATA is great, making them even better Hunters and excellent Rangers, too.
Their HP is almost as good as Beasts'.
Unlike in PSO, they can cast TECHNICs if they switch their type to Force.
They gain stat bonuses for the Ranger and Fortegunner types.
They are relatively bad forces.
Their Resta is expected to be insufficient at higher levels, as well as their damage Techniques.
Racially suffer from the lowest EVP and MST.

These are our 4 races, and their racial stats are affected based on gender.*Edit, as Midori stated, this is no longer an issue.
I don't have an actual stat worksheet to work with in comparing them at all. These notes were from Cirnopedia.
Last edited by Blade Takehiko on Thu Feb 18, 2016 6:55 am, edited 5 times in total.
The blade that once cut the wings of a devil.
Kento Twilight Beast lvl1 Fighgunner[Clementine]
Argus Kelgron Beast lvl1 Masterforce[Clementine]
Roland Beast lvl1 Acrofighter[Clementine]
None lvl???? Demigod[Unknown?]

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Midori Oku
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Re: Let's Talk Races.

Postby Midori Oku » Tue Feb 16, 2016 11:43 am

I would like to point out that both genders (no matter the race) have the same stats. There is no longer a gap. Another thing is that we plan to make it so that there are no race/gender restrictions on weapons.

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Blade Takehiko
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Re: Let's Talk Races.

Postby Blade Takehiko » Tue Feb 16, 2016 11:48 am

My main issues that I'd like to address is the stat differences. Each class is effected by race and is given a stat bonus. Not many classes have a stat bonus that humans have/are gettings. But I know they suffered in a few things, and that they should be better for the hybrid classes. So I will note,
*Beasts
Humans, Newmans, and Casts, shouldn't be stronger than beasts in terms of melee, obviously due to a natural racial trait beasts have.
Humans, Newmans and Casts, shouldn't be able to out DPS beasts in terms of melee, which can be a case due to their severe lack in ATA and this can be an issue "if" there's plans for S5~S8 Difficulties, possible less harsh rebalance?
No Beasts should have more tech than a Newman Or a Human.
No other race except casts should have more DEF than Beasts
Beasts should have a bonus for acrofighter, Fighgunner and/or Wartecher, and Fighmaster. (from what I can tell, they don't have one at all!)
Humans Should have a greater bonus for a majority of the types they master in, I'd even make an except for master and forte types .-. but keeping in mind of other racial bonuses.
I have more issues to address.. but i'm tired, so i'll add to another post or edit this one later.
Last edited by Blade Takehiko on Tue Feb 16, 2016 11:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
The blade that once cut the wings of a devil.
Kento Twilight Beast lvl1 Fighgunner[Clementine]
Argus Kelgron Beast lvl1 Masterforce[Clementine]
Roland Beast lvl1 Acrofighter[Clementine]
None lvl???? Demigod[Unknown?]

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Blade Takehiko
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Re: Let's Talk Races.

Postby Blade Takehiko » Tue Feb 16, 2016 11:50 am

Midori Oku wrote:I would like to point out that both genders (no matter the race) have the same stats. There is no longer a gap. Another thing is that we plan to make it so that there are no race/gender restrictions on weapons.


Well that's good, kinda felt a bit unfair and sounded like extra work to begin with the whole gender stat stuff.
The blade that once cut the wings of a devil.
Kento Twilight Beast lvl1 Fighgunner[Clementine]
Argus Kelgron Beast lvl1 Masterforce[Clementine]
Roland Beast lvl1 Acrofighter[Clementine]
None lvl???? Demigod[Unknown?]

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Midori Oku
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Re: Let's Talk Races.

Postby Midori Oku » Tue Feb 16, 2016 12:01 pm

Here are the level 180 base stats used on Clementine. Keep in mind, this is for both genders.

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Jovie
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Re: Let's Talk Races.

Postby Jovie » Tue Feb 16, 2016 12:53 pm

In my opinion, racial stat differentiation is an archaic game design philosophy that has no place in a large, multiplayer game wherein balance and fairness is a concern. In a single-player game or implemented cleverly, I wouldn't mind it, but PSU doesn't implement it cleverly and we likely don't have a way to change that. With racial stat differentiation you force players to make the choices you want them to make if they wish to be most effective, leading to fewer meaningful choices overall. I want to play the race that I think looks coolest, yet still play the class with the play style I like without the added grief of knowing I'll never measure up to the person who makes the "right" choice.

I know that it doesn't make real life sense for robots to be just as strong as humans, but games wouldn't be fun if they mimicked real life entirely. A lot of times, you have to eschew what makes sense from a real life perspective to go with what makes the game better overall. If balance is a large concern for this server, I would strongly urge you to consider this.

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Blade Takehiko
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Re: Let's Talk Races.

Postby Blade Takehiko » Tue Feb 16, 2016 1:58 pm

Alright, catnap over.. one thing I want to point out, is the stupidly MASSIVE TP decrease between the races. Newmans being about 13% stronger than humans, but beasts are about 23% weaker than them where casts are 33~34% weaker than humans.. I know they're not supposed to run as tech types but if a beast or cast decides to be that class, They shouldn't be that extremely weak in terms of tech, almost completely useless and breaks the ability to be any of the techer types. Not to mention that they already don't have a bonus for those particular classes. Humans are fairly pretty good at techer based types, and newmans are superior.
The Mental differences between humans beasts and casts are also pretty high, the DFP differences aren't that bad its actually somewhat reasonable, and the ATA differences between Beasts and humans are also much higher than the differences between casts and newmans. on average its around 44 points off depending on the next best class, but beasts were dropped off by 92 points from the lowest race the ATP difference is about 100 or so points off depending on the racial differences HP difference i wanna say is about 180 off based on the next highest race.

(i'm still stuck on the fact casts have more than 700 TP difference from newmans.. the poor toaster.)
I feel as though humans should have around 3000 HP at least, and newmans have around 2800 HP, being what humans were previously since they still have the lowest DFP.
Newmans have 200 points more MST than humans and casts are more than 100 MST off

People should have more choice in what they play and be able to actually.."play" that role.
usually, the top two in a particular stat should not have the need to be adjusted "as much"but for races that don't have a bonus in that class, they're overly penalized. at higher levels I can see beasts being out damaged in terms of DPS if CASTs were given any more ATP, due to the lack in ATA that beasts have. Why make a damage dealing type strong if they're going to miss 30% of the time, when the next best class will probably only miss 10% of the time. Reminds me of the dex variances in crafted weapons pso2.
The blade that once cut the wings of a devil.
Kento Twilight Beast lvl1 Fighgunner[Clementine]
Argus Kelgron Beast lvl1 Masterforce[Clementine]
Roland Beast lvl1 Acrofighter[Clementine]
None lvl???? Demigod[Unknown?]

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Blade Takehiko
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Re: Race Change Discussion

Postby Blade Takehiko » Thu Feb 18, 2016 7:04 am

Another thing to note is that, enemies die a bit too soon. Unless your playing roles you shouldn't be playing as those races. Buffing enemies is one thing but in order to keep a more balanced enviroment, PAs Classes, Racial Stats, Elemental Rates, Buffs, Debuffs, and enemy resistances. Adding S5~S8 is just a small fix in my opinion, unless you plan on adding new mechanics, traps ect to the mission which I believe midori stated before.
The blade that once cut the wings of a devil.
Kento Twilight Beast lvl1 Fighgunner[Clementine]
Argus Kelgron Beast lvl1 Masterforce[Clementine]
Roland Beast lvl1 Acrofighter[Clementine]
None lvl???? Demigod[Unknown?]

Image

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Seority
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Re: Let's Talk Races.

Postby Seority » Thu Feb 18, 2016 7:41 pm

Jovie wrote:In my opinion, racial stat differentiation is an archaic game design philosophy that has no place in a large, multiplayer game wherein balance and fairness is a concern. In a single-player game or implemented cleverly, I wouldn't mind it, but PSU doesn't implement it cleverly and we likely don't have a way to change that.

I agree with you on this Jovie. I would prefer everyone have the opportunity to play any race they want with no Stat differences. Unfortunately, as you said, the Phantasy Star series is keen to implement specific racial traits and I'm unsure if its possible to change it much on Clementine.

While, I'm for shortening the Stat gap between the races, I would rather keep the racial bonuses the same (beasts blastbadge, cast suv, etc). So maybe something like a 22% difference between Newman and CAST TP is more acceptable?
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shade
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Re: Let's Talk Races.

Postby shade » Thu Feb 18, 2016 7:58 pm

Jovie wrote:In my opinion, racial stat differentiation is an archaic game design philosophy that has no place in a large, multiplayer game wherein balance and fairness is a concern. [...] With racial stat differentiation you force players to make the choices you want them to make if they wish to be most effective, leading to fewer meaningful choices overall. I want to play the race that I think looks coolest, yet still play the class with the play style I like without the added grief of knowing I'll never measure up to the person who makes the "right" choice.

I know that it doesn't make real life sense for robots to be just as strong as humans, but games wouldn't be fun if they mimicked real life entirely. A lot of times, you have to eschew what makes sense from a real life perspective to go with what makes the game better overall. If balance is a large concern for this server, I would strongly urge you to consider this.
QFT.

Wouldn't be possible to get rid of racial stats & "types bonuses" ? If no, I don't think there should be more than 5% difference between the worst and the best "gender/race/type" combinations.
ぐぇぐぇ。ぼよよん。


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