Class/PA Balance Discussion

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Sakarisei
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Re: Class/PA Balance Discussion

Postby Sakarisei » Sat Apr 22, 2017 8:21 am

Honestly I can understand what do you mean Miyoko. And of course, I hate repeating once again about the huge importance of having another useful tech weapon with the one handed melee weapon. However, in the case that Wands were able to use in the left hand too, or there were some melee weapons with the ability of being able to use in the left handed slot, honestly I have never suggested giving them S-Rank T-Mags to the WT. It's more, for me and unless there were some guys to suggest anything for the balance of the game, for me those things should be written in stone because basically all the other classes have what they need, excepting maybe level 40 in the Bullet PAs in the FI and level 40 in the Striking PAs in the PT.

Maybe you're right in terms that I'm making myself a vicious person in terms of repeating once again about the S-Rank T-Mag in the WT. Just I'd like to see in the people who dislike it about how they make a better class in the case that they're forced to switch each time they find enemies with high Striking or Tech resistance. Yeah, maybe S3-S4 is not the case, but when Midori Oku starts to make S5-S8 for people who have reached lvl 180+, tell me about how do you make the WT without a good left tech weapon for using offensive techs with the melee weapon, the most important thing in a hybrid like WT. It's more, switching each time the weapon because you need a certain attack type is giving a significantly loss of DPS. Furthermore, no one used the wand in the TAs because a tech weapon without a melee weapon is completely useless in a hybrid class.

Oh, and one thing more. The meaning of disliking/disagreeing certain opinions or certain things of an opinion of one person is not the meaning of disrespecting that person. It's more, I appreciate Midori's work, and I know about the huge work that he is making for the community. Just... if he wants a class with R-Mag at S-Rank, that thing is most prefered in the AF since AF is designed to be played with that style... and of course, using S-Rank R-Mag and S-Rank Wand is already in the GT, so basically the WT is still basically the same thing with near nothing interesting, excepting the obvious S-Rank Whip, which I'm absolutely sure that that thing will keep from the WT, and... of course, in the case that A-Rank Slicer is a reality in the WT, the unique feature of Slicer and T-Mag regardless of the rank of those weapons.

MysticForce
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Re: Class/PA Balance Discussion

Postby MysticForce » Tue Apr 25, 2017 9:22 pm

Miyoko wrote:The WT debate is still going on, and honestly, nothing has really changed. It's worth reading over the old posts on the subject before posting your thoughts because the same stuff is being regurgitated with nothing really valuable being added. I never responded to Sakarisei's post to mine because, like I said, nothing new was said, it was just a pointless circle.

So again, if you're gonna weigh in on the situation, please read the prior posts to make sure you're not just making an echo chamber. Or, y'know, have a developer weigh in.



I disagree. I think the more people weigh in, the better. If it turns out that a lot of people feel the same way about X or Y, that should tell you something. If someone sees a post they agree with and says nothing, then only a few people—representing the possible viewpoints in a given situation—would be heard. So the more the merrier, imo.

At the end of the day, though, every class is going to have limitations. Some are going to be better than others, potentially significantly. But I don't think that can be changed through simple means such as what we've been discussing recently. Realistically, it comes down to Midori's work.

Miyoko
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Re: Class/PA Balance Discussion

Postby Miyoko » Fri May 05, 2017 7:08 am

Sakarisei wrote:Stuff!


Don't get the wrong idea, Sakarisei, you are far from rude in your defending of your position. You may be opinionated, but you're not a jerk about it. At least when you were talking to me, you were civil and polite, despite having very different opinions than myself. I just think you repeat the same thing way too often, in too much redundant detail. I stopped responding because nothing new was being said, it was just a never ending circle.

For every point you gave, I gave you a counter arguement. Even now to the points you're making, I gave counter arguements to those. Dealing with resistances, the danger of using TA's as a baseline, the functionality of hybrids, I debated all of that with you. Just because somebody doesn't give explicit examples of issues you notice, doesn't make their points invalid. You are stubborn in your viewpoints, and that is not a bad thing, but you do have to be careful not to let it block you from seeing things from a different angle.

Again, I'm not going to get into specific arguements here, if anyone else, or even you, want to see some, you can read my older posts. The points still stand, and nothing really different or new has been said.



MysticForce wrote:I disagree. I think the more people weigh in, the better. If it turns out that a lot of people feel the same way about X or Y, that should tell you something. If someone sees a post they agree with and says nothing, then only a few people—representing the possible viewpoints in a given situation—would be heard. So the more the merrier, imo.


Oh don't get me wrong, people voicing their opinions isn't a BAD thing. It can help designers fix problems they didn't know they had, or offer different viewpoints. I'm merely saying, go back and read some arguments other people have made before you type out a couple pages of stuff, as you could either have your own opinion changed, or save yourself a ton of work by simply saying "I agree with X on all accounts." It's no secret that people have issues with WT and have had issues for a long time, but avoiding repeating the same thing for no reason simply cuts some of the fat for people, developers or otherwise, to read through.

Also, it bares mentioning again, since I don't think enough people realize this and never will because of the internet, but video game players are absolutely, in no way, video game designers. Just because you play video games, doesn't mean you know how to be a level designer. Just because you're a world class top tier speed runner, doesn't mean you know how to design video games. Game design is a mind bogglingly complex and confusing science that everyone thinks they know, but honestly doesn't. There's a reason 99% of fan games are terrible.

MysticForce wrote:Some are going to be better than others, potentially significantly.

I believe I touched on this briefly, before. Speaking of game design being a mind boggling complex, did you know that imbalanced characters / classes is actually a good design choice? Weird, huh?


I for one, will question and argue every choice Midori makes in the future, if only because having an opposing viewpoint can be -extremely- helpful when doing this kind of thing. I at least find it incredibly useful when doing design stuff.

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KanameChidori
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Re: Class/PA Balance Discussion

Postby KanameChidori » Fri May 05, 2017 8:00 pm

Okay so after reading through most of this the only change I would like to see/voice my opinion on would be to give A-S rank Crossbows to AF and take away the A rank Whips change. I don't really get the point of Whips on AF. Or just add in A rank Crossbows on top of the A rank Whips. Everything else I've read on this thread and Midori's change thread seems good (a few things are kinda strange to me, but it seems fine).
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Sakarisei
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Re: Class/PA Balance Discussion

Postby Sakarisei » Sat May 06, 2017 8:32 pm

@Miyoko

Oh, what the?...

Image

Examples? What type of examples do you need, if you really need examples? Have you ever seen the true issue to talk with a post like that? Oh my god, that's very easy to explain...

If you, in the official servers, you find that SEGA makes basically a new class which is able to do the same than one older version, but then, with new and better tools, although people later justify me anything, you're basically making that old class obsolete, and you're punishing people for using that class, because basically there is another thing which can do the same role, but better, much better. Although you can tell me what do you want, I'm sorry, but AT is much better than WT in terms of using both, striking and offensive techs at the same time, and not if WT has got better attack base or not. It's mainly about the gear that AT can carry in comparison with WT. That thing is a huge issue for a class which is supposedly to be a damage dealer with two attack types, and because SEGA is completely silly with their decisions, that class wasn't able to deal that role, making basically the worst class ingame even later, WT users finished using support techs for their Two Handed Weaponry, although with a huge recoil time because swapping weapons everytime that they do it.

Yeah, of course people is on their right to write here different opinions than mine. And honestly, I don't mind if one or another put one thing or another. The main problem is, if I think they're wrong, especially when basically I've seen the huge demand of a majority of those users before talking here, if I must discuss or even fight with that person, I'll do because I'm absolutely sure of it.

That people didn't like basically the FF with Resta and Megistar. And although I can understand why some people think WT is a FF with those two things, and then Foverse in the JP servers, is because FF in the old PSU version was extremely popular. Because that, the WT class had received some updates, but not for its original role. Instead, it was just another clone of a popular class with just one or two additions, but worse than the original FF. Although maybe people can tell me that WT is a Two Handed user with some supports, that thing is because SEGA was lazy, completely lazy. The big demonstration is the gear that they can use in S3-S4. I don't think you'll want to use A-Rank weaponry unless you're a masochistic who have fun with useless damage numbers in a difficult range when basically all people is using S-Rank weaponry, unless you're talking me about those A-Rank weapons with 10-20% in the PA Modifier input by SEGA, with the only reason of the laziness of the company... and even with that thing, forcing people to use that weaponry is basically giving them a huge disadvantage in comparison with the users of the other classes.

Miyoko wrote:I believe I touched on this briefly, before. Speaking of game design being a mind boggling complex, did you know that imbalanced characters / classes is actually a good design choice? Weird, huh?


In a game like Starbound or Minecraft, maybe. But in a RPG game when it's based in classes and basically those classes have got a role type for contributing themselves for dealing the stages? No.

People don't like the game that SEGA did it in the past, especially when people has completely fed up of the huge spam of master classes, ATs, keeping basically the 90% of the server population and with a very few population of Forte Classes and the PT, the other 9'9%, and maybe 1 or 2 people using the useless classes (GT & WT as the most useless classes in comparison with the others) because people didn't want to lose the time with classes who basically don't contribute nothing in comparison with the others. Oh, and of course, one of the things that Midori Oku has written the last year, especially for people who didn't want to balance the game is for guaranteeing the same spam of master classes and AT if they keep the same game that SEGA did it in the past. If you're talking about previous posts in this topic, the first one who must check the previous posts is you, and not me or the others.

Miyoko wrote:Also, it bares mentioning again, since I don't think enough people realize this and never will because of the internet, but video game players are absolutely, in no way, video game designers. Just because you play video games, doesn't mean you know how to be a level designer. Just because you're a world class top tier speed runner, doesn't mean you know how to design video games. Game design is a mind bogglingly complex and confusing science that everyone thinks they know, but honestly doesn't. There's a reason 99% of fan games are terrible.


One thing about people thinks they're game designers. Honestly you should be careful when telling it to players who have spent their time in a game when they know a lot of it even you're right that they aren't game designers. We're not in an age like the 90s or even the beginning of the 21st century when people didn't know much about it because the ignorance of the huge importance of the metagame in basically anygame. However, and since technologies allow people to know even the most profound parts of the game, thinking it is a huge mistake, especially when people is able to control anything with just wishing.

Oh, and of course, if you're telling me about I'm not a game designer, or I don't have tried at least doing it, I'll tell you some things even that thing is completely unnecesary. But since I'm seeing you're doubting basically anything of any user, well...

If you don't think I'm not conscious about how artwork is expensive, I'm sorry for you, but I've contracted some artists for my own game, and not a fan game.
If you don't think I'm not conscious about how music costs $30 for each minute for a simple music (But for $1000 for entire orchestras), I'm sorry, but I've studied it.
If you don't think I'm not conscious about how certain things costs a lot of, I'm sorry for you, but I've lived it with my own eyes...
If you don't think I'm not conscious about the huge difference of making a 2D and a 3D, believe me, I know it.
Oh, and finally, if you don't think I'm not conscious aobut how many times you must fight for registering your own game for preventing people to steal your ideas, I'm sorry, but I've took about entire months with it, with not necessarily a cheap tax for it.

With this, I'll tell you it. At the end of a project, the video game player will always know much more than the designer, mainly because the gamers (Basically the clients) are the only one who spend much more time than the designers. And that's one thing that you should consider before talking nothing about it...

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Aelphasy
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Re: Class/PA Balance Discussion

Postby Aelphasy » Sat May 06, 2017 10:12 pm

To go in the direction of Sakarisei, it is ridiculous to say that the player will never know as well the game as his creator.

The coding ability is not the same as the ability of game design; If that were the case, the games would not have any updates, no sequel that would take into consideration the critics of the players.
If tomorrow I embark on the creation of a painting, and I present it to experts in art and history of art, it is obvious that they will know better than me what is wrong with my work, because they will have seen and analyzed a quantity of different works.

To come back to a very concrete example: the dev team is probably still too young to be as good as the best coders of Sega, but they have cards in hand to make a PSU better than the original, simply because it has a lot of good (good imo lol) feedback to steer the game in the best direction.
Until the end.

Sakarisei
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Re: Class/PA Balance Discussion

Postby Sakarisei » Sun May 07, 2017 8:28 pm

Aelphasy wrote:To go in the direction of Sakarisei, it is ridiculous to say that the player will never know as well the game as his creator.

The coding ability is not the same as the ability of game design; If that were the case, the games would not have any updates, no sequel that would take into consideration the critics of the players.
If tomorrow I embark on the creation of a painting, and I present it to experts in art and history of art, it is obvious that they will know better than me what is wrong with my work, because they will have seen and analyzed a quantity of different works.

To come back to a very concrete example: the dev team is probably still too young to be as good as the best coders of Sega, but they have cards in hand to make a PSU better than the original, simply because it has a lot of good (good imo lol) feedback to steer the game in the best direction.


Oh Aelph, I totally agree your post... :)

Miyoko
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Re: Class/PA Balance Discussion

Postby Miyoko » Mon May 15, 2017 12:40 am

Sakarisei wrote:Things and a dumb image.


Maaan, why you gotta do this, Sakarisei? I just get finished telling you that you've been civil about your arguements so far, then you gotta come out swingin' the douche bat. You don't have to try and prove other people wrong on -everything- they say, you know?

I never said you don't provide examples. I also did not -ask- you to provide examples. Dude, all you DO is spout examples at people. Even when you're not prompted to, you do. I'm telling you that if OTHER people present a case to you, or a viewpoint, or an arguement, you shouldn't dismiss it because they DON'T have an example. You don't need anecdotal evidence to back something up, you know?


Sakarisei wrote:Yeah, of course people is on their right to write here different opinions than mine. And honestly, I don't mind if one or another put one thing or another.

Good to hear! Just make sure you ACT that way! It's easy to preach and not practice!


Sakarisei wrote:The main problem is, if I think they're wrong, especially when basically I've seen the huge demand of a majority of those users before talking here, if I must discuss or even fight with that person, I'll do because I'm absolutely sure of it.

... Not good! You're getting into hubris territory and that is very, very bad. It doesn't matter if EVERYBODY IN THE WORLD agrees with something, popular opinion =/= correct opinion. Have a viewpoint, have an opinion, argue it, but holy crackers do your research, and make sure it's your opinion because it's your opinion and not because it's the thing being screamed the loudest.


Sakarisei wrote:
Miyoko wrote:I believe I touched on this briefly, before. Speaking of game design being a mind boggling complex, did you know that imbalanced characters / classes is actually a good design choice? Weird, huh?


In a game like Starbound or Minecraft, maybe. But in a RPG game when it's based in classes and basically those classes have got a role type for contributing themselves for dealing the stages? No.

Other stuff, too.


It's absolutely true. In all cases.

First off, when talking about intentional imbalancing of a game, this DOESN'T mean just wildly making one thing vastly better / worse than another, or haphazardly throwing darts to choose stats or anything like that. It's a very finely crafted and specific imbalance that game designers put a lot of care towards creating.

As for WHY imbalance can be better than perfect balance, the fact of the matter is that imbalances in systems is just far more engaging for players. Look at a perfectly balanced game like Chess or Go: when you're a novice player, you have a wide range of different strategies you can try and you can feel yourself improving and such, but then when you want to seriously get better at the game, you realize that the pros have already worked out all the "best" ways to play, and so you don't actually get to spend any time creating any new strategies or having much agency at all - it's mostly a matter of memorizing all the top plays, then remembering to use them in their given situations. It's not until you become one of the best players IN THE WORLD that you actually get a chance to start developing your own strategies and start having a real creative impact on the game. If you think this is just a symptom of centuries-old board games, it holds true in video games: look at top-level play for the original Starcraft. All the "best" strategies were solved, so it essentially just came down to who can recognize the best strategy for the current situation and then APM faster than the other player. It wasn't a strategy game anymore, it was pretty much an action game where what mattered was how quickly you could press buttons on your kb+m.

Having imbalance gives players the opportunity to engage with your game. When something becomes considered the "best" strategy/character/whatever, then it gives other players the opportunity to try and figure out ways to beat it and overcome it. this also gives the game a more dynamic lifespan - with imbalance comes shifting metagames, especially if the developers are adjusting balance regularly. A perfectly balanced game becomes stale because it never changes: an imbalanced game can constantly be shifting and in flux, making sure that the game always feels "new" to the players.

Having strong / weak choices also gives players the ability to adjust their own difficulty without needing to "admit" to choosing an easier / harder option. If a player is less skilled, they can choose a stronger class and not suffer for it. Conversely, if a player wants a bigger challenge, they can choose a class or character that's generally considered weaker - not only do they get a bigger challenge, but they also get the honor of bragging about how they beat a challenge with a "weaker" choice.



Sakarisei wrote:If you're talking about previous posts in this topic, the first one who must check the previous posts is you, and not me or the others.


The comment was not directed at you. It was a general statement to anyone wanting to weigh in on the specific subject.

Sakarisei wrote:One thing about people thinks they're game designers. Honestly you should be careful when telling it to players who have spent their time in a game when they know a lot of it even you're right that they aren't game designers.

Snipped for space...


Okay, allow me to clarify a little bit.

When I say, "Video game players are absolutely, in no way, video game designers," please understand that doesn't mean that video game designers aren't video game players. They are of course. That's why they got into video game design! They love video games! They know, and they understand the plights of gamers when issues arise, but in the end they ultimately know way more than people who just play games.

A massive, or even small, playerbase can absolutely get more manhours with the game than the developers who made it, resulting in a pool of knowledge, but -that does not mean they know better than the developers. The players may get a deeper encyclopedic knowledge of the game, but that doesn't mean they have a deep understanding of why the game's systems work well together and why certain things in the game work and why others don't.
Players have grown in the past decades and general knowledge of games has grown, but game design knowledge has grown just as much of not more: designers have been spending all that time honing their craft.

Also no professional game designer worries about ideas being stolen. Not one. Any designer concerned with their ideas being stolen or copied is absolutely an amateur. Experienced designers know that design concepts evolve wildly over the course of development, and knows that any given idea will change into something drastically different depending on the designer that makes it. So stealing an idea will result in a drastically different game anyways. That's also not even accounting for the fact that if someone had the extraordinarily rare opportunity to make a game of their choice, they'll probably make THEIR idea instead of yours. Also in the bafflingly rare case that someone does steal your idea and it turns out exactly how you imagined it, congratulations your game got made and you didn't need to work to make it, and now everyone can enjoy it! After all, professional designers are usually more concerned with making something fun for everyone to enjoy! Unless you care more about being recognized and famous for an idea than actually making it?

Getting back on topic for players knowing more than the developers, that's like saying that just because you read Shakespeare or watch a Hitchcock movie a lot, it means you could write a better play or movie. That's not how it works in those mediums, and game design is the same.

Greatly appreciating the style and symbolism and techniques of a Van Gough painting doesn't mean you're a comparable artist

Aelphasy wrote:To go in the direction of Sakarisei, it is ridiculous to say that the player will never know as well the game as his creator.
Snippity snip for space. Can scroll up and read if you really want to.


Coders very rarely know as much about game design as actual game designers. They are distinct crafts that are worlds apart. It would be the same as saying that an actor knows how to properly light and direct a scene in a movie. Sure, maybe they have some knowledge of it, but nothing like someone who's dedicated their lives to it.

... There. I hope I didn't miss anything. This took a long time to type up, sheesh.

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Aelphasy
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Re: Class/PA Balance Discussion

Postby Aelphasy » Mon May 15, 2017 7:49 pm

Glad to read that you share my opinion then.
Until the end.

Miyoko
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Re: Class/PA Balance Discussion

Postby Miyoko » Mon May 15, 2017 10:31 pm

Aelphasy wrote:Glad to read that you share my opinion then.


... Okay, I think something got lost in translation somewhere. Was I not clear enough in my message? I apologize if I wasn't, but there is literally one thing in your post that I agree with: "The coding ability is not the same as the ability of game design" and that’s purely because I think being a good programmer doesn’t mean you’re a good game designer, and vice-versa. If you had another meaning behind this line, you’ll need to clarify.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but as I read it, the ultimate point you're trying to make, as summed up in your last line is "the devs of this server can make a better PSU than sega did because the devs have much more player feedback". Once again, this isn't necessarily true and I have to argue against it.

Developers have FAR more resources than just a forum to see if a game is going well or not. There are dedicated TEAMS of people that do nothing but play the game all day and provide feedback on it, and developers spend tons of time after a game is released reading forum posts for feedback. This server being more personal with the devs is nothing unique, it’s just more obvious to the players.

If you want even more information as to why players don't know as much as developers, allow me to elaborate even further on the topic: Players may (think that they) know what makes a game fun, but what they likely DON’T know is what makes a game successful. Now, you might think “if a game is fun, it WILL be successful!” but that’s not the case. This isn’t Field of Dreams here; if you build it they won’t necessarily come. You need to make sure the game is accessible for wide ranges of people to enjoy and want to tell their friends about. This is -especially- important for MULTIPLAYER games like PSU.

This can be doubly important for a small locally owned server (like this one) that wants to draw in new members - if the developers only consider a small minority, such as only the users on this forum, they’ll be alienating almost everyone else. This is practically spelling out a death sentence for the server before it’s even begun.


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