Class/PA Balance Discussion

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Midori Oku
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Re: Class/PA Balance Discussion

Postby Midori Oku » Tue Dec 27, 2016 1:36 pm

Can you elaborate on your question about enemy DFP being additive or multiplicative? As in additive or multiplicative to what?

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WallStreetWalker
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Re: Class/PA Balance Discussion

Postby WallStreetWalker » Tue Dec 27, 2016 1:56 pm

No problem. This is a simplification though, so don't take it as gospel.

Let's say an enemy DFP is 125.

If the way that the game calculates damage is multiplicative, say "(Incoming Damage)*.125" you get a different result than if it were "(Incoming Damage)-125", and this result matters; especially when dealing with PA's that hit multiple times. If the system is multiplicative (I assumed it was, since most other calculations I found were), then a PA that hits more frequently does more damage, and vice versa in an additive system. In an additive system, you want PA's that hit less but have higher efficiency. This makes the DPS way different in the long run.

But as I said, I'm like... 80% sure it's multiplicative.

Also it should be noted that those equations there are completely made up and really jacked up for a whole lot of reasons but it serves the question.

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Midori Oku
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Re: Class/PA Balance Discussion

Postby Midori Oku » Wed Dec 28, 2016 3:38 am

Damage formula for physical damage: 1(crit x (atp x pa x (1 + ele) x buff - enemy's dfp) / 5)

Damage formula for tech damage: 1(crit x (rod x tp x pa x (1 + ele) x buff - enemy's mst) / 5)

Note that on tech damage "rod" is 1.2 if you are actually using a rod, otherwise it is just 1. Also note that "crit" should be 1.5 if you want to know what the critical damage would be, otherwise it is just 1.

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WallStreetWalker
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Re: Class/PA Balance Discussion

Postby WallStreetWalker » Wed Dec 28, 2016 11:56 am

Oh wow, thanks. I've been looking everywhere for the exact formulas. This is gonna help immensely. Expect a new efficiency and dps chart soon.

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WallStreetWalker
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Re: Class/PA Balance Discussion

Postby WallStreetWalker » Wed Dec 28, 2016 12:50 pm

Alright, here's these things:

http://imgur.com/a/MJ1A4

Methodology:
- LVL 40 Skills
- Character ATP of 192
- Enemy DFP of 77
- Weapon ATP of most powerful 7-star, non-kubara weapon available in class
- Assumes full damage / no variance
- Assumes enemy DFP is ADDITIVE (Thanks, Midori)

As a note, the efficiency chart shows the total damage a PA does to a given number of hit boxes per one use. It is not the damage efficiency of the PA with regard to PP. I could make a chart with that on it, but I didn't figure it was particularly relevant. I will if someone asks, however.

This is not intended to be a 'best PAs' chart - a lot of this information is subjective in practical context. For example, while Anga Dugrega technically has the best DPS of all PA's, it hits two hit boxes, and has a blowaway effect on the second hit. This makes it poorly suited for single or even double hit box enemies, as the third hit will seldom land, and there are PA's with a much higher total damage to use on enemies with more than two hit boxes. So even though it's at the top of the charts, its kind of in purgatory in terms of overall usefulness.

I'm still working on serializations, stay tuned.

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PSUOverEverything
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Re: Class/PA Balance Discussion

Postby PSUOverEverything » Wed Dec 28, 2016 8:55 pm

WallStreetWalker wrote:Alright, here's these things:

http://imgur.com/a/MJ1A4

Methodology:
- LVL 40 Skills
- Character ATP of 192
- Enemy DFP of 77
- Weapon ATP of most powerful 7-star, non-kubara weapon available in class
- Assumes full damage / no variance
- Assumes enemy DFP is ADDITIVE (Thanks, Midori)

As a note, the efficiency chart shows the total damage a PA does to a given number of hit boxes per one use. It is not the damage efficiency of the PA with regard to PP. I could make a chart with that on it, but I didn't figure it was particularly relevant. I will if someone asks, however.

This is not intended to be a 'best PAs' chart - a lot of this information is subjective in practical context. For example, while Anga Dugrega technically has the best DPS of all PA's, it hits two hit boxes, and has a blowaway effect on the second hit. This makes it poorly suited for single or even double hit box enemies, as the third hit will seldom land, and there are PA's with a much higher total damage to use on enemies with more than two hit boxes. So even though it's at the top of the charts, its kind of in purgatory in terms of overall usefulness.

I'm still working on serializations, stay tuned.

my man, dude!

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Blade Takehiko
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Re: Class/PA Balance Discussion

Postby Blade Takehiko » Thu Dec 29, 2016 5:17 am

i couldn't find if anyone has posted this. but the infuriating grind for types at specific levels. Can those be adjusted, like
LEVEL 5. being harder than 6->7->8->9->10
The blade that once cut the wings of a devil.
Kento Twilight Beast lvl1 Fighgunner[Clementine]
Argus Kelgron Beast lvl1 Masterforce[Clementine]
Roland Beast lvl1 Acrofighter[Clementine]
None lvl???? Demigod[Unknown?]

Image

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WallStreetWalker
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Re: Class/PA Balance Discussion

Postby WallStreetWalker » Fri Dec 30, 2016 11:56 am

A new chart for you guys:

http://imgur.com/a/olOt6

This time we're going to highlight the total damage and DPS that PA's do when considering a varying number of hit boxes. These PA's are sorted in order of DPS - which is the white line on the chart. This is another example of why total DPS or damage do not necessarily translate to a better PA. Again there are intangibles here.

I'm still doing (and almost done) with serializations, but it's coming along about as I expect. If you'll notice, between those three charts the PA's fluctuate wildly in position - but a pattern does emerge. Look at the weapons that each PA utilizes and compare that to which classes have access to it. For the most part, "Hunter" PA's perform the best, "Ranger" PA's are average, and "Techer" PA's are the worst. There are some stand-outs, like Rising Strike or Bukuu Seien-zan, but this is all pretty much expected.

Also keep in mind that PA's that are close in performance on any of these charts may edge out a competitor when using a more powerful weapon. For instance, high-tier swords begin to really accelerate past their peers in terms of ATP, which would affect the rankings substantially. If anyone has a request as to what specific weapons to plug into my charts, I can and will make new ones. I think I may also make a 'user friendly' version and release it for download so you guys can make your own.

As an aside, if you'd like to check out my proposal for adjusting the economy on Clementine (shameless self-promotion, I know) check out this thread: http://psu-clementine.net/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=2259.
Last edited by WallStreetWalker on Mon Jan 02, 2017 1:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

supernoobstickman
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Re: Class/PA Balance Discussion

Postby supernoobstickman » Mon Jan 02, 2017 12:42 pm

The balance of Wartecher was done properly inside of jp with the adding of Axes. Although photon arts are currently really badly broken, with modifiers killing the majority of great pa the wartecher can use (renzan seidan ga, vivi danga, etc.) The updates to them were very good to balance the class. Once twin dil edge are added, Wartecher will be more than fine with assault crush. Anyone who thinks they need all that much is just flat out wrong. They just need what they already had in jp. Once the game reaches closer to that, then wartecher will be fine.

balance for wartecher that was previously inside of jp;

renzan seidan ga getting it's lately introduced buff of hitting more monsters
pa modifiers being correct for the 2nd and 3rd parts of photon arts
s rank axes being introduced to the class as they were in jp
twin dil edge being introduced (probably happening anyways)

with these being introduced wartecher will not only become viable, it will become a top time attacking class imo for higher ranked missions like s5, s6+

things that would make wartecher too powerful but hey let's throw them out there!
give them level 40 striking pa (would have to give level 50 pa to fortefighter to counter this)
give them s rank whips
give them s rank spears
give them s rank cards
give them s rank bows

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WallStreetWalker
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Re: Class/PA Balance Discussion

Postby WallStreetWalker » Mon Jan 02, 2017 5:35 pm

I'd just like to start by saying that I really appreciate the feedback I got while posting these things in the Discord channel! I fixed some errors with my original charts and took a different approach to how to display the numbers which I will discuss here.

Firstly though, here's the latest (and hopefully *final*) charts:

http://imgur.com/a/m0Ej4

Alright, so the first chart is pretty straightforward - it's simply the "pure" DPS put out by each PA, assuming all hits land. This is the damage you'd be looking at against a group of single entities or entities with only a few hit-boxes. These numbers were acquired by dividing the total amount of damage that a PA could do by the number of frames the move lasts. (For those curious, I got the frame data myself forcing the game to run at 60fps. The moves may be one or two frames off but it wouldn't make much of a difference in the long run.)

The second chart is the cumulative damage done by a PA using a *gestalt* model instead of an individual one. These numbers were acquired by totaling the DPS per hit-box, and then adding the totals together. In other words, those PA's are sorted by how effective they are vs. single entities with multiple hit-boxes, such as bosses or other large multi-hit-box enemies. The white line represents the overall DPS of each PA, while the colored bars indicate total damage per one use of the PA.

Some questions were raised about why I opted for 7-star weapons and level 40 instead of 50 skills, and the short answer is that they were all the lowest common denominator between all skills. PA modifiers grow at a set rate, so proportionally level 50 skills make no difference so long as all skills measured here are also level 40. Also true with character and weapon ATP to a point - the only additive variable is enemy DFP, and with that in mind I will be more than happy to make another chart with a higher DFP value if requested.

Additionally, on the other charts I had only listed the damage dealt by Slicers for one hit-box. Slicers can hit infinite targets, so displaying that number wouldn't be feasible. Instead I included a "best case" hit for a Slicer which I feel to be 6 hits. Keep in mind that the Slicer damage on the second chart is actually much lower than displayed if the entity being attacked is a single entity with multiple hit-boxes.

I am not likely to add technics to these charts, because the difference between ATP and MST aren't proportional or consistent between races / classes, and if I *were* to do so, the wrong conclusions would be drawn in light of that fact.


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