Class/PA Balance Discussion

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Dakkon
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Re: Class/PA Balance Discussion

Postby Dakkon » Thu Dec 22, 2016 11:21 am

Just a suggestion, with a twist of design without adjusting so many things, a lenghty one but just a suggestion, composed of two steps:


Step 1: lvl 50 for all.

After having been playing without limits on the Photon Arts the world keeps spinning despite everyone being able to use lvl 50 stuff.

What if... instead of adjusting Skills, Bullets, and Technic caps for each class to wonky levels (yes, I'm looking at your 22, 32 and 42, just conveniently enough to get the 21, 31 and 41 buffs), we let the class stat modifiers, weapon access, and class traits (PP reduction on fortes, attack speed on acros and masters) do the balancing? What if we leave everything 50 reachable and see how it goes? "Oh but that would not be fair to master classes", well, I don't think master classes needed help at all and there were reasons beyond them being the new thing for their tremendous popularity.

Personal opinions aside, just imagine it.

For example, who uses handguns at all during endgame? Fortefighters, with their poor A rank lvl 10 bullets handguns, not even Protranser with their S rank ones and lvl 40 bullets, despite Saber+Handgun being their only option for "light equip" and being abailable both at S rank, and of course not Acrofighters or Fighunners, those have far better options for off-hand. Do any of you seriously think that Fortefighter would be broken with lvl 50 handgun (and A handgun nonetheless) bullets? The damage output would still be poor compared to the class melee arsenal and it would still be used only as a few shots while approaching the target or out of pure necessity against something airborne.

Let's go to a different example, what if Guntecher had lvl 50 offensive technics, would it be broken? It would be laughable if any, to see a Guntecher with a plethora of lvl 50 nukes, compared to any actual Force, spamming them would be a wasted effort given the class TP limitations, BUT a player could find useful to lvl up a single basic Diga and Foie for enemies such as Polavohra who are (well, not yet in Clementine) bullet resistant and Guntecher melee isn't very strong, but that lvl 50 Diga could present itself really useful without being broken at all.

I do think that ironically having no caps on the level of PAs balances more than breaks the game.



Step 2: One eligible Weapon access per type.

Want some spice in the Clementine classes? what if every character can choose ONE and only ONE weapon type to customize its type? something simple that you could mark and designate in the class switch counter, with simple yet strict rules: if the class has access to A rank for the weapon type chosen you can use S rank for that one weapon type, and if the class has not access to the weapon type at all, make it A and only A, and only if the desired weapon is on an "accesible" branch. This sounds complex but it would be quite simple.
-Melee two handed
-Melee one handed
-Ranged two handed
-Ranged one handed
-Technic

For example, our previous Fortefighter could choose between upgrading one of his A's to S, OR gaining access to A rank Whips, OR A rank Machineguns or Crossbows, but not any casting weapon or say a Bow, since it can only "branch" from its basic Handgun and melee weapons.

Fighmaster would still lack access to any gun, as Gunmaster would still lack access to any stick, but both could fetch one extra two handed toy.

Ok all of that may sound pretty but what about Masterforce? Masterforce already has its own full branch and cannot branch out for anything... well, anything? remember that part about "no PAs caps"? I would think Masterforce would appreciate the mere access to lvl 50 support techs, but still I'm sure few would waste their precious nuking time using Resta, and what about balance then? Despite their power and superior casting speed, wouldn't they be broken with lvl 50 support techs? they would still be limited by lack of diversity and the master classess PP penalty, so I think that would pay out the differences, since Fortetecher and Acrotecher would also have lvl 50 offense, plus a lot of options.

Just give it a thought, away from number crunching and constant rebalancing of current patrons which only leads to a "now this class is broken, next month the flavor of brokeness goes to the previously weak class, and repeat the cycle over time while the rivers of tears at the forums never end", away from the MOBA rebalancing nightmare.
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yikesmybad
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Re: Class/PA Balance Discussion

Postby yikesmybad » Thu Dec 22, 2016 10:40 pm

Dakkon wrote:Just a suggestion, with a twist of design without adjusting so many things, a lenghty one but just a suggestion, composed of two steps:
Spoiler:
Step 1: lvl 50 for all.

After having been playing without limits on the Photon Arts the world keeps spinning despite everyone being able to use lvl 50 stuff.

What if... instead of adjusting Skills, Bullets, and Technic caps for each class to wonky levels (yes, I'm looking at your 22, 32 and 42, just conveniently enough to get the 21, 31 and 41 buffs), we let the class stat modifiers, weapon access, and class traits (PP reduction on fortes, attack speed on acros and masters) do the balancing? What if we leave everything 50 reachable and see how it goes? "Oh but that would not be fair to master classes", well, I don't think master classes needed help at all and there were reasons beyond them being the new thing for their tremendous popularity.

Personal opinions aside, just imagine it.

For example, who uses handguns at all during endgame? Fortefighters, with their poor A rank lvl 10 bullets handguns, not even Protranser with their S rank ones and lvl 40 bullets, despite Saber+Handgun being their only option for "light equip" and being abailable both at S rank, and of course not Acrofighters or Fighunners, those have far better options for off-hand. Do any of you seriously think that Fortefighter would be broken with lvl 50 handgun (and A handgun nonetheless) bullets? The damage output would still be poor compared to the class melee arsenal and it would still be used only as a few shots while approaching the target or out of pure necessity against something airborne.

Let's go to a different example, what if Guntecher had lvl 50 offensive technics, would it be broken? It would be laughable if any, to see a Guntecher with a plethora of lvl 50 nukes, compared to any actual Force, spamming them would be a wasted effort given the class TP limitations, BUT a player could find useful to lvl up a single basic Diga and Foie for enemies such as Polavohra who are (well, not yet in Clementine) bullet resistant and Guntecher melee isn't very strong, but that lvl 50 Diga could present itself really useful without being broken at all.

I do think that ironically having no caps on the level of PAs balances more than breaks the game.



Step 2: One eligible Weapon access per type.

Want some spice in the Clementine classes? what if every character can choose ONE and only ONE weapon type to customize its type? something simple that you could mark and designate in the class switch counter, with simple yet strict rules: if the class has access to A rank for the weapon type chosen you can use S rank for that one weapon type, and if the class has not access to the weapon type at all, make it A and only A, and only if the desired weapon is on an "accesible" branch. This sounds complex but it would be quite simple.
-Melee two handed
-Melee one handed
-Ranged two handed
-Ranged one handed
-Technic

For example, our previous Fortefighter could choose between upgrading one of his A's to S, OR gaining access to A rank Whips, OR A rank Machineguns or Crossbows, but not any casting weapon or say a Bow, since it can only "branch" from its basic Handgun and melee weapons.

Fighmaster would still lack access to any gun, as Gunmaster would still lack access to any stick, but both could fetch one extra two handed toy.

Ok all of that may sound pretty but what about Masterforce? Masterforce already has its own full branch and cannot branch out for anything... well, anything? remember that part about "no PAs caps"? I would think Masterforce would appreciate the mere access to lvl 50 support techs, but still I'm sure few would waste their precious nuking time using Resta, and what about balance then? Despite their power and superior casting speed, wouldn't they be broken with lvl 50 support techs? they would still be limited by lack of diversity and the master classess PP penalty, so I think that would pay out the differences, since Fortetecher and Acrotecher would also have lvl 50 offense, plus a lot of options.

Just give it a thought, away from number crunching and constant rebalancing of current patrons which only leads to a "now this class is broken, next month the flavor of brokeness goes to the previously weak class, and repeat the cycle over time while the rivers of tears at the forums never end", away from the MOBA rebalancing nightmare.


I like this idea as it gives generalized love and depth to the classes. I don't know about ALL 50s but getting 40s and the class specialties at 50 would be nice. Even 31-35 instead of 40. But, yes I agree for purposes of depth, enjoyment, replayability and the likes.

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Seority
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Re: Class/PA Balance Discussion

Postby Seority » Fri Dec 23, 2016 1:13 am

I also agree that having pas that only go to 10 or 20 are pretty pointless.

As far as giving everything lvl 50 (at least for main weapons) is a very intriguing idea. I believe for classes suck as the fortes should get 50 pas for their respective roles, since the master classes will still get the extra attack speed. This is something that can be considered.
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Midori Oku
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Re: Class/PA Balance Discussion

Postby Midori Oku » Fri Dec 23, 2016 1:18 am

And................the balance would roughly be the same as a drunk on a tightrope. lol

Edit: Making it so that caps don't go any lower than 20 or 30 is something that can be considered. Level 50 for everything? No.

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Dakkon
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Re: Class/PA Balance Discussion

Postby Dakkon » Fri Dec 23, 2016 3:08 am

Midori Oku wrote:And................the balance would roughly be the same as a drunk on a tightrope. lol

Edit: Making it so that caps don't go any lower than 20 or 30 is something that can be considered. Level 50 for everything? No.


Seems like you missed my the point I was trying to show or are just outright against it, but I will still ask, given that you mention that balance would die, and to lit and open the conversation for debate for those interested.

What would it break?

Fortes (or any class with current 40 limits) could already hit lvl 50 PAs in JP with GAS customization.

Masters are already there.

This leaves us hybrids, including Protranser, given that hybrids touch two or three PA types, as the classes who would benefit the most from "50 for all" and being in danger of broken balance.

Well... weren't you precisely targeting Guntecher and Wartecher as being in dire need of boosts and considering increasing their damage? Raw example: The "abysmal" 30% (or 40%, or 20%) PA damage ADDITIVE modifier difference between a PA of lvl 30 listing a 170% modifier and one at lvl 50 listing a 200% modifier (raw examples) would mean in that example a mere 15% total damage output increase, wasn't that what you were aiming for when thinking about buffing WT and GT in this very own thread? That would align them with your goals.

Weren't the stats of Protransers already modified "to make it stronger"? The difference between Protranser being 30 Skills 40 Bullets (with GAS option to reach 40 at some skills and 50 at some bullets) against Protranser being outright 50 Skills 50 Bullets sounds way more hardcore than what it would really mean in terms of damage, and most PAs stop growing accuracy past 30~40. There, that could have "fixed" Protransers without buffing their stats for impatient players who cannot understand expert types are very weak at lvl 1, and Protranser is the weakest at that phase, but it is just that, a phase.

Didn't we hear enough that Fighunners almost don't use or lack motivation to use their "gunner" half? Haven't we seen enough Fighunners who are really Fortefighters in disguise with a Double Saber? Again, fixed by the "crazy" 50s.


We could go on and on and derail on the implications on every class type, or argue about balance as if classes were defined only by their PA limits and nothing else mattered, but I think we can agree that saying "lol that would be the same as a drunk on a rope" was a vague and lazy way to dismiss something that you personally don't like.
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Midori Oku
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Re: Class/PA Balance Discussion

Postby Midori Oku » Fri Dec 23, 2016 4:10 am

First of all, I would like to apologize for that response. I tried to make a joke. Anyway, I had planned to post something about this later.

I get what you're saying, and trust me, I have and will give it more thought. Some of them probably would be fine upping them to 50, but not all of them. A prime example of this is Masterforce getting level 50 buffs. PP Cost isn't enough to keep them from using level 50 Megistar. Another problem we get into on the tech side is how limit breaks are going to end up being handled, but that's a completely different story.

Anyway, this is all assuming that GAS is not implemented on Clementine in the first place. If it does get added PA level changes (for the most part) wouldn't be added anyway.

As for the part of your idea about adding weapons or higher rank weapons to a class. I'm not even sure if there would be a way to go about doing this. It would have to be something custom made for Clementine, and that would be really far down the line. If by chance we would do it, I believe it should be limited to upping the rarity of a weapon currently available to that class already, but of a lower rarity. For example, Fortetecher being able to up A rank TCSM's to S rank. As for what would happen with FM, GM, and MF remains to be seen.

But yeah, I'm up for giving a build with all classes being able to use level 50 PA's a try. However, I will need quite a few people to join in for testing with solo and group TA times once the other changes are added as well. It's unlikely any of this will be added within the next month, but hopefully somewhat soonish. I've talked Marmalade about possibly seeing some of this added soon. To give you an idea it's unlikely to see any of this added between now and January 16th (the day I start my classes again).

Sakarisei
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Re: Class/PA Balance Discussion

Postby Sakarisei » Fri Dec 23, 2016 9:37 am

Tbh lvl 50 in anything is too risky. PSU is not a game like Shroud of the Avatar when players are classless and they decide about they focus their skills and masteries.

I'll post with more details later, but I think FIs with S-Rank Slicers and S-Rank Machineguns/A-Rank Crossbows will deal the role of a hybrid of melee and ranged, for non-talking that WT will be better with S-Rank T-Mag and S-Rank Whips, and then GT will be better with S-Rank Cards.

Obviously, I agree with lvl 50 PAs for Forte classes, excepting maybe the FT because the lvl 40 in support, which for now, I'll just agree about lvl 42 in offensive techs. But that thing, ofc, for a very late update.

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WallStreetWalker
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Re: Class/PA Balance Discussion

Postby WallStreetWalker » Sun Dec 25, 2016 4:50 pm

I've been doing some data collation on PA's recently, and I'll just leave this here...

http://imgur.com/a/dBjjb

So before people start drawing conclusions from this data, let me discuss my methodology.
- Data compiled using a character ATP of 196
- Data compiled using the most powerful non-kubara 7-star weapon available.
- Data assumes LVL40 skills.
- Data assumes enemy DFP is multiplicative.
- Data assumes a 'perfect hit' in which 100% of the damage from a PA lands.
- Data does not account for DPS (that's coming later)
- Data does not account for PP efficiency (that's ALSO coming later)
- Data does not account for the ability for Slicers to hit unlimited targets.

So what can be gleaned from this chart? Well, there are certainly under-performing PA's from a pure efficiency standpoint. But to be fair, there are quite a few intangibles, like on-hit effects, accuracy, etc. I think we should be extremely careful when adjusting the damage and effects of PA's though, since many of them were balanced with the idea of restricted class access. Say what you will about how SEGA managed the game but they *did* have a full team of designers and testers when they put this together. It's possible that you're right in that the PA's aren't balanced well - but the thing about hubris is that always it feels like being right. Tread carefully.

I'll be continuing to gather data however.

BTW; Does anyone know of any accurate source of frame data for the PA's? I'm planning on doing it myself but it would be super duper if I didn't have to. Additionally I'd like to know if enemy DFP is additive or multiplicative if anyone knows.

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Seority
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Re: Class/PA Balance Discussion

Postby Seority » Tue Dec 27, 2016 11:38 am

WallStreetWalker wrote:I've been doing some data collation on PA's recently, and I'll just leave this here...

http://imgur.com/a/dBjjb



Wow, this is amazing data! It'll still be hard to base anything around this, but this is a wonderful step forward. It's nice to see the spread of damage between the PA's, at least from one angle.

With so many stats being percentages of a base one, it starts to get confusing about what to change and where. Level, race, classe, weapon, PA, buff, element, etc, so much can alter these. Yet, I applaude your efforts. Thank you very much for making this graph! Hopefully we can build off of it in some way.
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WallStreetWalker
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Re: Class/PA Balance Discussion

Postby WallStreetWalker » Tue Dec 27, 2016 1:18 pm

Aaaand, here's the DPS as promised.

http://imgur.com/a/bDPxk

So messing with these numbers a bit (I have the whole thing on a sheet, after all) I feel pretty confident in editorializing a bit.

The PA's seem pretty balanced as-is, in my opinion. I've been serializing them according to class access and it seems like that's the trend that the DPS and efficiency follow. For instance, it seems like a PA that the Fortefighter class has access to has about a 1000% mean modifier and about 6 total targets over the course of a full combo (although this is just supposition). Conversely, techer-type classes only seem to have access to about 500% or 600% over four targets (but again it swings around).

This is consistent enough for me to assume that it was intentional. After all, if a class that could heal, buff, and shoot could also be competitive damage-wise then why would you be another class?

Just my two cents. I'm gonna continue to analyze and see if I can come up with a hard serialization.
Last edited by WallStreetWalker on Tue Dec 27, 2016 1:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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