Class/PA Balance Discussion

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MysticForce
Posts: 56
Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2014 8:17 pm

Re: Class/PA Balance Discussion

Postby MysticForce » Tue Dec 20, 2016 12:39 am

Zane Wolfe wrote:As I'm still incredibly new to PSU multiplayer, my only Phantasy Star multiplayer experience until recently was PSO for the GC & PSO BB, I can't say much about what is or isn't balanced. What I can say is what I would like to see. And that's a viable Hunter/Support Force Hybrid class, like PSO's Huney. She might have been a pain in the ass to level at first but she was my pride and joy. First type I ever hit lvl 200 on was my Hueny. Wartecher so far is the closest, but it leaves quite a bit wanting IMO. Perhaps a Master version of the class would be possible? Something that hits 40-50 in Strike and Support PAs, but doesn't have Bullet or Attack PAs at all. Give it access to S rank Daggers, Dual Daggers, Claws, Dual Claws, Wands, and MAGs. Possibly others, but those are the types I'm familiar with the most. Plus she need's to be able to use Nie's Claw(s)



Besides WT, there's also acrotecher. What exactly do you find lacking in wartechers?

saelix
Posts: 4
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2016 5:46 am

Re: Class/PA Balance Discussion

Postby saelix » Tue Dec 20, 2016 4:35 am

MysticForce wrote:
Zane Wolfe wrote:As I'm still incredibly new to PSU multiplayer, my only Phantasy Star multiplayer experience until recently was PSO for the GC & PSO BB, I can't say much about what is or isn't balanced. What I can say is what I would like to see. And that's a viable Hunter/Support Force Hybrid class, like PSO's Huney. She might have been a pain in the ass to level at first but she was my pride and joy. First type I ever hit lvl 200 on was my Hueny. Wartecher so far is the closest, but it leaves quite a bit wanting IMO. Perhaps a Master version of the class would be possible? Something that hits 40-50 in Strike and Support PAs, but doesn't have Bullet or Attack PAs at all. Give it access to S rank Daggers, Dual Daggers, Claws, Dual Claws, Wands, and MAGs. Possibly others, but those are the types I'm familiar with the most. Plus she need's to be able to use Nie's Claw(s)



Besides WT, there's also acrotecher. What exactly do you find lacking in wartechers?


I know it's weird since you didn't ask me,but if they didn't play much, my guess would be the low attack stats/accuracy Wartecher has at early levels that left an off putting impression,they aren't a problem as you level the class.

Alexandrious
Posts: 31
Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2016 11:58 pm

Re: Class/PA Balance Discussion

Postby Alexandrious » Tue Dec 20, 2016 5:20 am

Midori Oku wrote:First off, many people know that there were big gaps between the classes, and the PAs. For example, Guntecher very weak compared to other classes. While hybrid classes shouldn't be the "best" in any category, they shouldn't be so weak that they are not able to keep up with the others. Second, while some PAs were fun to use, they were not exactly ideal for any situation. A good example of that is Absolute Dance. Although it can be fun to use, there isn't a situation where it would be a better option than Spiral Dance. My goal with this is to make the classes and PAs as balanced as possible. The classes were way more balanced on JP, but that was because of certain PAs getting really big buffs. Those PAs were the only ones you would really ever see, and I don't want that to be the case on Clementine.

I've separated the classes out in to separate categories. Keep in mind this is my opinion.

Classes that need major adjustments
-Fighgunner
-Guntecher
-Wartecher


Classes that need minor adjustments
-Fortetecher

Classes that don't need adjustments
-Fighmaster
-Masterforce

I didn't list the rest of the classes because I'm not quite sure what to do with them at the moment. That's why I made this thread. I want to see everyone's opinion. I'll make a list like this for PAs eventually.

I know some of you don't want change, but I personally would like to see every class and PA be a viable option, and not just something that's fun to use. I don't really want to nerf anything unless it absolutely needs it. For example, if Dus Skadd (a JP only spear PA) is ever added to Clementine, it shouldn't be as strong as it was on the official server. It negated just about every single other PA for any weapon on classes that could use spears. Anyway, please leave your opinions, and ideas. I want to know what you guys think! Go into as much detail as you can. Also, everyone please make a list of PAs that you believe need some sort of buff, and I'll look over them.

I'll edit this post with information as we go along with this topic.

Edit: Instead of updating this post I've created a separate thread where I will post information as this goes along.
Here's the link - viewtopic.php?f=25&t=1772


Ive always destroyed all the thingz on Fighgunner, now and back then, what is it you find lacking on it Midori?

Sakarisei
Posts: 158
Joined: Fri Jul 18, 2014 10:45 pm

Re: Class/PA Balance Discussion

Postby Sakarisei » Tue Dec 20, 2016 4:27 pm

MysticForce wrote:
Zane Wolfe wrote:As I'm still incredibly new to PSU multiplayer, my only Phantasy Star multiplayer experience until recently was PSO for the GC & PSO BB, I can't say much about what is or isn't balanced. What I can say is what I would like to see. And that's a viable Hunter/Support Force Hybrid class, like PSO's Huney. She might have been a pain in the ass to level at first but she was my pride and joy. First type I ever hit lvl 200 on was my Hueny. Wartecher so far is the closest, but it leaves quite a bit wanting IMO. Perhaps a Master version of the class would be possible? Something that hits 40-50 in Strike and Support PAs, but doesn't have Bullet or Attack PAs at all. Give it access to S rank Daggers, Dual Daggers, Claws, Dual Claws, Wands, and MAGs. Possibly others, but those are the types I'm familiar with the most. Plus she need's to be able to use Nie's Claw(s)



Besides WT, there's also acrotecher. What exactly do you find lacking in wartechers?


WT was basically the worst class ingame because that class had got no features to be attracted by the others, excepting having the "fun" of being a Spellsword or any class with the hybrid of warrior/mage class nature. If you see this post, you can check the features that WT will have.

WT is supposed to use any one hand melee and one hand tech weapon at the same time, and not... for example, switching between your 2H weapon and your Card/Wand because WT wasn't able to be effectively to use that thing... in comparison with AT.

If you wanted a Spellsword, AT is a much better option than WT. If you wanted a Spellbow or any Ranger/Mage, AT is much better option than GT. That thing made obsolete those two classes, being converted in a reason to be kicked in any party with no explanations to your person.

No one wanted it, and basically, because things like that, people only played the AT & Master types.

Alexandrious wrote:
Midori Oku wrote:First off, many people know that there were big gaps between the classes, and the PAs. For example, Guntecher very weak compared to other classes. While hybrid classes shouldn't be the "best" in any category, they shouldn't be so weak that they are not able to keep up with the others. Second, while some PAs were fun to use, they were not exactly ideal for any situation. A good example of that is Absolute Dance. Although it can be fun to use, there isn't a situation where it would be a better option than Spiral Dance. My goal with this is to make the classes and PAs as balanced as possible. The classes were way more balanced on JP, but that was because of certain PAs getting really big buffs. Those PAs were the only ones you would really ever see, and I don't want that to be the case on Clementine.

I've separated the classes out in to separate categories. Keep in mind this is my opinion.

Classes that need major adjustments
-Fighgunner
-Guntecher
-Wartecher


Classes that need minor adjustments
-Fortetecher

Classes that don't need adjustments
-Fighmaster
-Masterforce

I didn't list the rest of the classes because I'm not quite sure what to do with them at the moment. That's why I made this thread. I want to see everyone's opinion. I'll make a list like this for PAs eventually.

I know some of you don't want change, but I personally would like to see every class and PA be a viable option, and not just something that's fun to use. I don't really want to nerf anything unless it absolutely needs it. For example, if Dus Skadd (a JP only spear PA) is ever added to Clementine, it shouldn't be as strong as it was on the official server. It negated just about every single other PA for any weapon on classes that could use spears. Anyway, please leave your opinions, and ideas. I want to know what you guys think! Go into as much detail as you can. Also, everyone please make a list of PAs that you believe need some sort of buff, and I'll look over them.

I'll edit this post with information as we go along with this topic.

Edit: Instead of updating this post I've created a separate thread where I will post information as this goes along.
Here's the link - viewtopic.php?f=25&t=1772


Ive always destroyed all the thingz on Fighgunner, now and back then, what is it you find lacking on it Midori?


I can explain you... if a FM appears, your FI is obsolete. FI, in the past, was a "good class" because that class was the only one with the ability of using Double Sabers. And ofc, because that, FIs only used many times that weapon. But when FM appeared, and then lvl 50 in the melee PAs, FI had got no point in that thing. If you use a Twin Saber, FF can overcome you easily. Yeah, a "good thing" is the TMG glitch, but that was because that glitch.

In other case, generally the three hybrids (FI, GT and WT) were for fair the less chosen types by the people.

Alexandrious
Posts: 31
Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2016 11:58 pm

Re: Class/PA Balance Discussion

Postby Alexandrious » Tue Dec 20, 2016 7:19 pm

Sakarisei wrote:
MysticForce wrote:
Zane Wolfe wrote:As I'm still incredibly new to PSU multiplayer, my only Phantasy Star multiplayer experience until recently was PSO for the GC & PSO BB, I can't say much about what is or isn't balanced. What I can say is what I would like to see. And that's a viable Hunter/Support Force Hybrid class, like PSO's Huney. She might have been a pain in the ass to level at first but she was my pride and joy. First type I ever hit lvl 200 on was my Hueny. Wartecher so far is the closest, but it leaves quite a bit wanting IMO. Perhaps a Master version of the class would be possible? Something that hits 40-50 in Strike and Support PAs, but doesn't have Bullet or Attack PAs at all. Give it access to S rank Daggers, Dual Daggers, Claws, Dual Claws, Wands, and MAGs. Possibly others, but those are the types I'm familiar with the most. Plus she need's to be able to use Nie's Claw(s)



Besides WT, there's also acrotecher. What exactly do you find lacking in wartechers?


WT was basically the worst class ingame because that class had got no features to be attracted by the others, excepting having the "fun" of being a Spellsword or any class with the hybrid of warrior/mage class nature. If you see this post, you can check the features that WT will have.

WT is supposed to use any one hand melee and one hand tech weapon at the same time, and not... for example, switching between your 2H weapon and your Card/Wand because WT wasn't able to be effectively to use that thing... in comparison with AT.

If you wanted a Spellsword, AT is a much better option than WT. If you wanted a Spellbow or any Ranger/Mage, AT is much better option than GT. That thing made obsolete those two classes, being converted in a reason to be kicked in any party with no explanations to your person.

No one wanted it, and basically, because things like that, people only played the AT & Master types.

Alexandrious wrote:
Midori Oku wrote:First off, many people know that there were big gaps between the classes, and the PAs. For example, Guntecher very weak compared to other classes. While hybrid classes shouldn't be the "best" in any category, they shouldn't be so weak that they are not able to keep up with the others. Second, while some PAs were fun to use, they were not exactly ideal for any situation. A good example of that is Absolute Dance. Although it can be fun to use, there isn't a situation where it would be a better option than Spiral Dance. My goal with this is to make the classes and PAs as balanced as possible. The classes were way more balanced on JP, but that was because of certain PAs getting really big buffs. Those PAs were the only ones you would really ever see, and I don't want that to be the case on Clementine.

I've separated the classes out in to separate categories. Keep in mind this is my opinion.

Classes that need major adjustments
-Fighgunner
-Guntecher
-Wartecher


Classes that need minor adjustments
-Fortetecher

Classes that don't need adjustments
-Fighmaster
-Masterforce

I didn't list the rest of the classes because I'm not quite sure what to do with them at the moment. That's why I made this thread. I want to see everyone's opinion. I'll make a list like this for PAs eventually.

I know some of you don't want change, but I personally would like to see every class and PA be a viable option, and not just something that's fun to use. I don't really want to nerf anything unless it absolutely needs it. For example, if Dus Skadd (a JP only spear PA) is ever added to Clementine, it shouldn't be as strong as it was on the official server. It negated just about every single other PA for any weapon on classes that could use spears. Anyway, please leave your opinions, and ideas. I want to know what you guys think! Go into as much detail as you can. Also, everyone please make a list of PAs that you believe need some sort of buff, and I'll look over them.

I'll edit this post with information as we go along with this topic.

Edit: Instead of updating this post I've created a separate thread where I will post information as this goes along.
Here's the link - viewtopic.php?f=25&t=1772


Ive always destroyed all the thingz on Fighgunner, now and back then, what is it you find lacking on it Midori?


I can explain you... if a FM appears, your FI is obsolete. FI, in the past, was a "good class" because that class was the only one with the ability of using Double Sabers. And ofc, because that, FIs only used many times that weapon. But when FM appeared, and then lvl 50 in the melee PAs, FI had got no point in that thing. If you use a Twin Saber, FF can overcome you easily. Yeah, a "good thing" is the TMG glitch, but that was because that glitch.

In other case, generally the three hybrids (FI, GT and WT) were for fair the less chosen types by the people.


Spite the human bonus's and the fact I generally kept 10-15 weapons of varying high element types at all times, swapping between them on palette rapidly? Yea I had to play much harder to equal the FM's in damage, but I made it possible. But I guess I was the exception, the class will need to be buffed somehow for the norm, or else it will just be the few who uses it. Dont forget, FI can use bullets too, for aerial bosses or pain in the ass aerial mobs, FMs were heavily disadvantaged.

User avatar
Midori Oku
Posts: 309
Joined: Fri Jul 11, 2014 4:01 am

Re: Class/PA Balance Discussion

Postby Midori Oku » Wed Dec 21, 2016 8:20 am

Alexandrious wrote:Spite the human bonus's and the fact I generally kept 10-15 weapons of varying high element types at all times, swapping between them on palette rapidly? Yea I had to play much harder to equal the FM's in damage, but I made it possible. But I guess I was the exception, the class will need to be buffed somehow for the norm, or else it will just be the few who uses it. Dont forget, FI can use bullets too, for aerial bosses or pain in the ass aerial mobs, FMs were heavily disadvantaged.


A top tier FI wouldn't even come close to equaling a top tier FM's damage. Number for number? Sure. Overall DPS? Not a chance. As for the pain in the ass mobs/bosses....FM would still kill them faster. Flying trash mobs were never a problem for FM, and flying bosses such as De Rol Le were still easier to kill as a FM regardless of not having guns. Dragon bosses like De Ragan usually were dead before they could take off anyway. Even if they did take off right at the start of the fight they would die shortly after landing. If you're a Fighmaster fighting De Ragan (when he doesn't take off from the very start of the fight) and he takes off, you're doing it wrong.

yikesmybad
Posts: 6
Joined: Tue Dec 13, 2016 1:30 am

Re: Class/PA Balance Discussion

Postby yikesmybad » Wed Dec 21, 2016 4:12 pm

If anything I would just love to see S rank twin daggers on AF.

Alexandrious
Posts: 31
Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2016 11:58 pm

Re: Class/PA Balance Discussion

Postby Alexandrious » Wed Dec 21, 2016 10:21 pm

Midori Oku wrote:
Alexandrious wrote:Spite the human bonus's and the fact I generally kept 10-15 weapons of varying high element types at all times, swapping between them on palette rapidly? Yea I had to play much harder to equal the FM's in damage, but I made it possible. But I guess I was the exception, the class will need to be buffed somehow for the norm, or else it will just be the few who uses it. Dont forget, FI can use bullets too, for aerial bosses or pain in the ass aerial mobs, FMs were heavily disadvantaged.


A top tier FI wouldn't even come close to equaling a top tier FM's damage. Number for number? Sure. Overall DPS? Not a chance. As for the pain in the ass mobs/bosses....FM would still kill them faster. Flying trash mobs were never a problem for FM, and flying bosses such as De Rol Le were still easier to kill as a FM regardless of not having guns. Dragon bosses like De Ragan usually were dead before they could take off anyway. Even if they did take off right at the start of the fight they would die shortly after landing. If you're a Fighmaster fighting De Ragan (when he doesn't take off from the very start of the fight) and he takes off, you're doing it wrong.


Their is no mechanic for keeping them grounded other then maybe targeting the wings, its been so long I forgotten, but your saying that a Fighmaster can magically cause damage to aerial mobs, by standing their and twiddling their thumbs? Or when a mob is far away, the Fighmaster has to pretty much run up to him, probably with tornado dance, or just magically do dmg to it spite its far away, while I simply switch to my guns, do a 180, and fire away rapidly?

Ok. I guess ill chalk it up to the usual phantasy star logic.

Photons.

k.

MysticForce
Posts: 56
Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2014 8:17 pm

Re: Class/PA Balance Discussion

Postby MysticForce » Thu Dec 22, 2016 12:56 am

Sakarisei wrote:
WT was basically the worst class ingame because that class had got no features to be attracted by the others, excepting having the "fun" of being a Spellsword or any class with the hybrid of warrior/mage class nature. If you see this post, you can check the features that WT will have.

WT is supposed to use any one hand melee and one hand tech weapon at the same time, and not... for example, switching between your 2H weapon and your Card/Wand because WT wasn't able to be effectively to use that thing... in comparison with AT.

If you wanted a Spellsword, AT is a much better option than WT. If you wanted a Spellbow or any Ranger/Mage, AT is much better option than GT. That thing made obsolete those two classes, being converted in a reason to be kicked in any party with no explanations to your person.

No one wanted it, and basically, because things like that, people only played the AT & master classes.


I wasn't looking for an explanation of why WT sucked. I played the game for 4-5 years, so I'm well aware. I asked that person what he/she found lacking about WTs after playing a huney in PSO. I was only looking for his/her specific concerns.

In addition, maybe use spoiler boxes if you're going to quote multiple walls of text in a single post?

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Midori Oku
Posts: 309
Joined: Fri Jul 11, 2014 4:01 am

Re: Class/PA Balance Discussion

Postby Midori Oku » Thu Dec 22, 2016 6:11 am

Alexandrious wrote:Their is no mechanic for keeping them grounded other then maybe targeting the wings, its been so long I forgotten, but your saying that a Fighmaster can magically cause damage to aerial mobs, by standing their and twiddling their thumbs? Or when a mob is far away, the Fighmaster has to pretty much run up to him, probably with tornado dance, or just magically do dmg to it spite its far away, while I simply switch to my guns, do a 180, and fire away rapidly?

Ok. I guess ill chalk it up to the usual phantasy star logic.

Photons.

k.


I never said they magically do damage. All I'm saying is that it is usually not enough to make the FI kill the boss faster than the Fighmaster. I'm talking solo here btw. As for for flying trash mobs, if you're having to use guns on them as a FI you're doing it wrong. lol

You asked, I answered.

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