Class/PA Balance Discussion

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Sakarisei
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Re: Class/PA Balance Discussion

Postby Sakarisei » Sat Jan 07, 2017 12:15 am

supernoobstickman wrote:The balance of Wartecher was done properly inside of jp with the adding of Axes. Although photon arts are currently really badly broken, with modifiers killing the majority of great pa the wartecher can use (renzan seidan ga, vivi danga, etc.) The updates to them were very good to balance the class. Once twin dil edge are added, Wartecher will be more than fine with assault crush. Anyone who thinks they need all that much is just flat out wrong. They just need what they already had in jp. Once the game reaches closer to that, then wartecher will be fine.

balance for wartecher that was previously inside of jp;

renzan seidan ga getting it's lately introduced buff of hitting more monsters
pa modifiers being correct for the 2nd and 3rd parts of photon arts
s rank axes being introduced to the class as they were in jp
twin dil edge being introduced (probably happening anyways)

with these being introduced wartecher will not only become viable, it will become a top time attacking class imo for higher ranked missions like s5, s6+

things that would make wartecher too powerful but hey let's throw them out there!
give them level 40 striking pa (would have to give level 50 pa to fortefighter to counter this)
give them s rank whips
give them s rank spears
give them s rank cards
give them s rank bows


The S-Rank Whips will come in the server, so don't worry for it. And ofc, WT will come already with the lvl 40 in the PAs. However, I dunno why do you want to include S-Rank cards and S-Rank bows when the WT is a hybrid of melee and techs. Maybe your goal is using whips and cards, near the same than the AT. I'm sorry for that, but WT should be better using S-Rank Whips and S-Rank TMGs than using S-Rank Whips and S-Rank Cards. The main reason that AT can use that combination is because although that class is purely support, they're a special case when they can use a specific weaponry. No offense, but since they have about lvl 20 in bullets (Lvl 22 in Clementine), I don't think that thing will be efficient, or not at least if you don't show a good proof about it.

And S-Rank Spears? I don't want a FF with techs, or not at least when basically WT is already good with Twin Claws.

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WallStreetWalker
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Re: Class/PA Balance Discussion

Postby WallStreetWalker » Mon Jan 09, 2017 5:34 am

So as I've been going over things, I am more and more convinced that the classes in this game should not be touched. I'm all aboard changing things to match the JP updates, but I think that further alterations are putting class balance at risk in a big way.

For instance, giving a class access to S-Rank weapons may seem like a small change, such as what is proposed on being done with the wartecher - but this has major repercussions. Consider that the average jump between C -> B -> A-rank weapons is about 20%. The average increase from A -> S is 48%. And that's *from* A -> S, so it doesn't add, it multiplies. 48% is one of the lower means for a weapon class, too. Some, like swords, are even more disparate. The difference in power between the average A and the average S is sitting around an average of 60% - 70%. And that's not even taking the most powerful weapons in the class as the exemplars. Skills are the same way - giving a class access to a 21st, 31st, or 41st level of a skill (the usual "breakpoints" of effectiveness) that they were not originally intended to have throws class balance out of whack.

A class in this game is defined by what skills and weapons it has exclusive access to. Why would I be a fortefighter when I could take a paltry 20% decrease to base ATP, but have the same weapon and skill tier access, and get technics on top of that? Especially since weapon ATP and PA modifier and not character stats contribute the lion's share of the damage?

Changes like this may seem innocent, but they have deep implications. Specialized classes specialize. They have access to the *best* of what their archetype has to offer. Playing a hybrid class means, by definition, that you don't have access to what specialists have. You sacrifice effectiveness for flexibility - and if you get to have both there's no point in picking a different class. So why then give wartechers or other hybrids access to specialist weapons and skill levels?

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WallStreetWalker
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Re: Class/PA Balance Discussion

Postby WallStreetWalker » Tue Jan 10, 2017 4:20 am

http://imgur.com/a/l86Vy

This is a comparison between a type's ATP at level 20 considering a base ATP of 192, pre-Clementine patch. The difference in ATP between a Wartecher (a hybrid) and Fortefighter (a specialist) is 15% (307.2 -> 355.2). 3/20ths. But the compensation for this perceived shortcoming?

- Increased ATA, EVP, and TP
- Increased technics on-par with specialist and master classes (i.e. 31+)
- 3 S-Rank weapon accesses, including a ranged(?) weapon for some reason, odd considering it's a fighter / techer hybrid
- Increased Bullet access (see above)
- Trap access

A cursory summation is this: Classes do not differ based on their stats. They differ based on weapon and skill access - and messing with that is a much more pervasive change than you might think. It worries me to see all the changes listed in the original post - because all of the hybrid classes get numerous weapon and skill accesses that rob the specialist classes of their exclusivity, and therefore their viability. Again, what is 15% ATP in exchange for full access whole other class's best toys?

Sakarisei
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Re: Class/PA Balance Discussion

Postby Sakarisei » Wed Jan 11, 2017 8:55 am

I'll post here because I see people misunderstanding the situation of the hybrids...

In first place, I'd like to remember to anyone that hybrids are made to use one handed weapons and not two handed weapons. I know about the huge power of the two handed weaponry, but that thing shouldn't be a reason to input more two handed weapons to the hybrids when the huge problem is not that...

The big problem of hybrids in pre-clementine is, if you want melee and tech, you'll use AT because it has got much more powerful and synergy since S-Rank T-Mag ans S-Rank whip made much more useful than a WT S-Rank Twin Claws and Nidra and special whip with 10-20% of power. If you want ranged and tech, you'll use AT because they can carry S-Rank cards, making, in conjuntion of the attack speed, much more viable than a GT.

The FI, although that class was good, it was because that class was the only one with the ability of S-Rank Double Sabers, but they lack about a better versatility when they use one handed melee ans one handed ranged.

In the WT, with S-Rank T-Mags, S-Rank whips, at the cost of lowering the wands to A-Rank and then lowering the TP base will make the WT a good hybrid, in conjuntion of lvl 32+ in offensive techs, adding too the only class with the ability of using S-Rank whips and lvl 50 PAs with the whip... Altough the lvl 50 whips in the WT thing will come later

In the GT, with S-Rank cards will make the GT basically the only class with the ability of using any one handed ranged weapon with the support of S-Rank wands for better versatility

In the FI, with S-Rank slicers will make more versatile while mixing with the guns since that class will be able to do the versatility that they really need ingame, killing the pure spam of FIs with just Double Sabers.

If you see, there are the only things that really need, and they don't need specific A-Rank weapons for being viable. Furthermore, when dealing with the S5+ content, A-Rank weapons won't be an option since enemies are much more harder than before...

Sakarisei
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Re: Class/PA Balance Discussion

Postby Sakarisei » Wed Jan 11, 2017 12:49 pm

@WallStreetWalker

I disagree

Hybrids like WT, GT or FI are classes made for mixing two fields for making an unique style. WT is for short ranged techs and some melee (One handed melee weapons). GT is for long range techs and some guns (one handed guns). And finally, FI is made for being able to deal in both... short and long range with melee and ranged.

Although you put the setup of the JP WT class, if you're not giving me correctly that thing, that class is useless, completely useless. Even GT was much better than WT since GT has got the left hand for guns and the right one with a tech weapon... both S-Rank.

The big problem of WT is you, with a S-Rank wand, you cannot use a S-Rank one handed melee weapon (Dagger in official servers) at the same time since they use the same slot. Although you put a two handed weapon and then a S-Rank wand and A-Rank cards, you're not supposed to play with that palette. Unafortunately, the only reason for techs in a WT is Giresta and then, if you solo a TA, Megistar and Resta, but you have no reasons to use offensive techs since the difference between WT and the other classes is huge. Even AT is much powerful while mixing melee and techs because the huge flexibility of the AT gear.

I see much fear wuth the hybrids, but seriously, I don't think you want a huge spam of master classes because dramas like that. AT makes obsolete WT and GT even if they use specific rares for matching the other classes... and then, at the end of the game, the other classes will have much more freedom than WT and GT since those two classes are the weakest classes with huge differences.

WT doesn't really need axes because that weapob is not its job. They need to use one handed tech weapons and one handed melee weapons at the same time in the same palette slot. If you don't do it, then you've made wrong the class...

Miyoko
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Re: Class/PA Balance Discussion

Postby Miyoko » Thu Jan 12, 2017 3:17 am

Sakarisei wrote: Although you put a two handed weapon and then a S-Rank wand and A-Rank cards, you're not supposed to play with that palette.

WT doesn't really need axes because that weapob is not its job. They need to use one handed tech weapons and one handed melee weapons at the same time in the same palette slot. If you don't do it, then you've made wrong the class...


What exactly makes you the official on this? Did you design the class? For all we know, nobody ever figured out what the "intended" play style of the class is. Know why I play WT over AT? They're a lot more tanky. Let's me stay closer to my friends who are honestly not very good at the game without having to worry about getting stomped. Allows for more mistakes.

Just because someone is playing a class differently does not make it wrong. Hell, even if you DESIGNED the class to be played a specific way yourself, just because someone doesn't play it that way doesn't make it wrong. Their play style could be far more effective than your intention. Personally, I'd rather keep S-rank wands over gaining S-rank T-mags because they're considerably stronger, which allows for me to do more damage on the occasion I DO use techs.

Sakarisei
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Re: Class/PA Balance Discussion

Postby Sakarisei » Thu Jan 12, 2017 5:46 am

Miyoko wrote:What exactly makes you the official on this? Did you design the class? For all we know, nobody ever figured out what the "intended" play style of the class is. Know why I play WT over AT? They're a lot more tanky. Let's me stay closer to my friends who are honestly not very good at the game without having to worry about getting stomped. Allows for more mistakes.


Read the description of the class.

"Advanced type with the abilities of Forces and Hunters.
Uses TECHNICs and striking attacks. Offers strong defense."


You're supposed to use both at the same time. And with this, I don't have the word of god to alter anything, but one of the things that I've done before suggesting improving WT is talking with another WTs. And yeah, I know about the higher defense, but that thing is useless if the WT doesn't have enough things in comparison with the other classes. More defense than the other classes is useless if the class does have no features with it.

Miyoko wrote:Just because someone is playing a class differently does not make it wrong. Hell, even if you DESIGNED the class to be played a specific way yourself, just because someone doesn't play it that way doesn't make it wrong. Their play style could be far more effective than your intention. Personally, I'd rather keep S-rank wands over gaining S-rank T-mags because they're considerably stronger, which allows for me to do more damage on the occasion I DO use techs.


No one will stop you about the gamestyle that you take, but I'll tell you some things.

If you use S-Rank Wand with A-Rank Cards, and you find a GT with S-Rank Wand and S-Rand gun, basically the GT is more optimal than the WT. If you use a Two Handed weapon, basically many melees will overcome you. Yeah, it's ok that the WT has got some Two Handed weapons for heavier damage in striking, but you're not supposed to use it because you're a hybrid. And hybrid is not meant to be useless or weak. Hybrid is mixing for an unique style.

And about the Wands, yeah, they hit stronger, but in comparison with the T-Mags, they're faster and they use the left handed slot, the most important thing to make WT more useful since you can use too a one handed weapon while you cast your techs. Wands use the right hand slot, blocking you from using melee weapons and you're forced to use a ranged weapon with lvl 20 bullets.

Yeah, you can play with Wands and Cards as a WT if you want, but I can assure you that GT and AT can overcome you easily with a palette slot like that.

EDIT: Honestly I'd like to see left hand wands for avoid giving t-mags to WT. However, unafortunately, no one in this site is able to make it, so basically we must use the T-mags for allowing at the same time using techs and melee, the most important thing in WT...

saelix
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Re: Class/PA Balance Discussion

Postby saelix » Thu Jan 12, 2017 9:18 am

I was going to leave this thread for a lot longer since any changes can literally be 6+months away but the discussion recently has people with ideas I heavily disagree with and/or people that say we should leave the class balance alone which is unbelievably ignorant.

I really don't think it should be ignored that the Master Classes and Acrotecher are what caused the "useless type" thing,but they're here to stay so let's move on from that.

1.Expert types devolved into stepping-stones for Master types as they outclassed them EXTREMELY,that is why Midori made this thread because (if im reading everything correctly) they would like every type to viable
A.I would like to use expert types and not be kicked from a party
B.I don't think anyone would object to having to level a Forte-type to 15 or 20 to unlock Master classes,there is not a single person i've met that enjoyed playing Guntecher and Wartecher to unlock Gumaster and Masterforce and Midori's proposed changes to make Wartechers unable to to use S rank wands(because Newmans players will be sadistic enough to use any other weapon right? unless you actually expect people to use TCSMs for damage) will make the awful experience even worse.

2. When Jp Sega "fixed" these classes they were lazy and all they did was introduce BS 20% damage boost weapons and PSP PA's that were the very definition of "powercreep" or they made powerful single hit pas hit for 3 times(which would make any PA viable )
A I would like to use hundreds of weapons available in PSU instead of limiting myself to powercreeped 20% boost ones(most of which are hideous to me)
B I would like to use different PAs for different situations

3.What Sega intended on how to play Hybrid classes is a bit everywhere but looking at the type's stats and weapons make it more readable

Guntecher-Meant to Use Crossbows and Bows for ranged damage while their tech side was meant to provide support(obviously, I can't believe we have to tell apparent PSU vets that anything not MF did pitiful tech damage)
A.Stat-wise I'd say Guntecher's EVP is abnormally low with a 120% while Wartecher's 160%-200% and Fortetecher's 200% and MST at 130%

Wartecher-Meant to use Twin melee weapons(sans Twin sabers) for damage,with Dagger+TMAG being their 1 handed set up,using Techs for support
(Even Karen Erra our only wartecher used wands only for healing and ARGUABLY support,there is an instance where she had a B rank wand with electric type TECHS but I believe that was too inflict Shock status and therefore had no focus on damage whatsoever.)

A.This whole thing about them needing to use 1 handed set ups perplexes me as this type had little indication of that( while your 1 handed set ups DID appear in the Acro-types)

B.Wartecher's level 1 main stats are abysmally low(yes Hybrids should have lower stats but holy shit) with 80%Atp/60%Ata/80%TP compared to Guntecher 80%Atp/100%Ata/102%TP and Fighgunners 100%Atp/96%Ata,I would suggest buffing them to 100%Atp/70%Ata/95%TP( I have already asked Midori for stat changes but he said "Nah, it's going to stay the same." but I thought i'd share anyway)

Fighgunner-Signature weapon of Double Saber with Twin handguns for Ranged DPS with access to Machinegun+handgun for 1 Handed sets. Due to being part Ranger has the Highest ATA ratio of melee classes(only beats Fighmaster by 8%, 146%/138% I honestly think this could be increased to about 170% and give Fighgunner a more apparent Niche,for comparison Guntecher's ATA is 180% and Fortegunner's ATA is 230%)

I've already spent a bit of time on this i'll continue later.

Sakarisei
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Re: Class/PA Balance Discussion

Postby Sakarisei » Thu Jan 12, 2017 12:55 pm

@Saelix

Basically you're talking about a FF with resta, but not about a WT. Furthermore, the main reason of the T-Mag is because Midori wants to encourage people to use both, melee and techs at the same time, and not about using two handed weapon in one way and then wands and cards in another way, losing a lot of time switching weapons when a GT with improved techs will be much better than a WT since GT will have both, good techs and good guns at the same time while WT can't. But wait, for just melee and support is much better the AT than the WT. Even AT is ridiculously better when using techs (T-Mag) and melee (Whip) than the WT.

In other cases, just focusing in the support is garbage, pure garbage.

That is the main reason of the S-Rank T-Mag and A-Rank wand, because at least in my csse I'd like to see WTs attacking with the melee and the offensive techs, and not just using resta and megistar... And of course, nothing of using the melee and the offensive techs separately...

Miyoko
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Re: Class/PA Balance Discussion

Postby Miyoko » Fri Jan 13, 2017 8:38 am

Sakarisei wrote:Read the description of the class.

"Advanced type with the abilities of Forces and Hunters.
Uses TECHNICs and striking attacks. Offers strong defense."


You're supposed to use both at the same time. And with this, I don't have the word of god to alter anything, but one of the things that I've done before suggesting improving WT is talking with another WTs. And yeah, I know about the higher defense, but that thing is useless if the WT doesn't have enough things in comparison with the other classes. More defense than the other classes is useless if the class does have no features with it.


I read the description of the class. It says it's a type with the abilities of Forces and Hunters. It says they are capable of using both TECHNICS and striking attacks. It also says it offers strong defense, which goes with what I was saying.

You know what I don't see? That you're SUPPOSED to use techs and melee at the same time. It DOES NOT say that I'm supposed to use one handed weapons. You can make ASSUMPTIONS about these things based on the gear load out, but that doesn't mean it's true. Also, "more defense" IS a feature of the class. High defense is something WT has that other classes do not. Just because you place no value on it, doesn't mean it actually is worthless.

Is high defense a GOOD feature? That's up for debate. As far as I can tell, you don't think it is. From my perspective, the difference is large enough that it is useful.


Sakarisei wrote:No one will stop you about the gamestyle that you take, but I'll tell you some things.

If you use S-Rank Wand with A-Rank Cards, and you find a GT with S-Rank Wand and S-Rand gun, basically the GT is more optimal than the WT. If you use a Two Handed weapon, basically many melees will overcome you. Yeah, it's ok that the WT has got some Two Handed weapons for heavier damage in striking, but you're not supposed to use it because you're a hybrid. And hybrid is not meant to be useless or weak. Hybrid is mixing for an unique style.


What are the WT/GT doing with the Wand + card load out? Are they spamming techs? Because if they are, a high level WT is going to be more effective. Are they healing? WT is going to be more effective for the melee members, where WT will be more useful for ranged partners. WT also has an edge on casting debuffs (usefulness aside, it IS something they can do). Are they spamming cards? Then yes, GT will out perform WT, because they're a ranger -- That's what they are supposed to do.

Furthermore, saying that WT isn't supposed to use heavier weapons is inane. They would not give you access to them if you weren't supposed to use them. You yourself keep preaching that WT is a hybrid, and that "hybrid is mixing for a unique style". Being able to switch between a dagger-techmag support roll, to a wand-card tech casting roll, to a more melee oriented spear, or even heavy hitting axe role, sounds pretty unique to me.


Sakarisei wrote:And about the Wands, yeah, they hit stronger, but in comparison with the T-Mags, they're faster and they use the left handed slot, the most important thing to make WT more useful since you can use too a one handed weapon while you cast your techs. Wands use the right hand slot, blocking you from using melee weapons and you're forced to use a ranged weapon with lvl 20 bullets.


I can't tell what point you're trying to make here. You say you can't use a melee weapon while casting from a wand, so you can use a T-mag instead. You just solved your own problem, I guess? Why not use both, though? Why are you limited to one? Why are you FORCED to use a ranged weapon? I use a T-mag with healing spells when I'm melee focused, and when I'm trying to be offensively tech focused, I switch to a wand. I am using the strength of fast casting T-mags for healing while meleeing, and I'm using the strength of a harder hitting wand when I want to get some tech output done. If I'm spamming techs from a wand, then I'm not using my secondary weapon anyways. In fact, if anything, I would equip an R-mag in my off hand slot while I'm spamming techs because it gives me some extra damage output while I throw diga at everything.

Sakarisei wrote:Yeah, you can play with Wands and Cards as a WT if you want, but I can assure you that GT and AT can overcome you easily with a palette slot like that.


And WT can overcome GT when using double sabers, daggers, or sabers and any off hand combo. WT can overcome GT with techs, period, after class level 15. Ranged weapons are a fallback and an option for WT, just like melee weapons are for GT. This is a silly comparison to make. WT can also juggle enemies easily with knuckles, which AT can't do at all. The near 25%~ difference in HP/ATP modifiers makes the two classes fairly different as well.

Sakarisei wrote:EDIT: Honestly I'd like to see left hand wands for avoid giving t-mags to WT. However, unafortunately, no one in this site is able to make it, so basically we must use the T-mags for allowing at the same time using techs and melee, the most important thing in WT...


I can't really comment on the design implications of this without doing some research on it, but I can imagine it would be a balancing nightmare.


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