Drop system

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Seority
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Re: Drop system

Postby Seority » Thu Feb 04, 2016 3:53 pm

I understand that we currently have little data about exchange quests, but would it really be that hard to make one? It would be just like synthing a weapon (item a+item b+item c=item X). Sorry if I'm assuming this incorrectly, just seems like something that would be easy to do.

I'm a little confused about the drop rate for splitting. Why are we giving people an option to do split or not? If splitting the loot means to lower the drop rate, why would anyone do that? I would rather have my drop rate increase when in a party, not the other way around. I guess we just need some clarification on what exactly goes down with this system.
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Saion
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Re: Drop system

Postby Saion » Thu Feb 04, 2016 5:48 pm

I don't mean to pry on this conversation but, maybe a minor suggestion from me may be of some help, it could work, it might not, depends. My idea was just basically turning the drop rate into how it is on PSP2 & PSO2, to where w/e you see drop is for your eyes only, basically everyone having their own drops, that way no one is bummed out about a rare opportunity they've been farming for & now have to spend more time farming for it again because it randomly went to someone else..I mean I personally don't mind the random item distribution, but I feel it's just alot of time consumption trying to farm for something that's very hard to come by when you solo, & "sort of" drops like candy in a party. If this idea could work, of course drop rate will have to be adjusted to where it's not too easy to aquire something as well as it not being excessively hard to farm. Just an idea I just wanted to throw out there, hopefully it's useful.. ._.
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Ricewind
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Re: Drop system

Postby Ricewind » Thu Feb 04, 2016 8:37 pm

@Seority, there is clarification on the previous place.
This setting will lower the drop rate according to the players in the party, essentially leaving the drop rate the same all together.

"I would rather have my drop rate increase when in a party, not the other way around."
This really makes it sound as if you want free handouts, correct me if I'm wrong.

@saion
As mentioned previously, PSO2's drop system does not work, as it's implemented there, in clementine.
Firstly, if you fully understand statistics, you are still missing out on a drop every time you don't get a rare. On top of that, every time PSO2 announces someone getting a rare, there were equal chances of that person being you, so again, you're missing out.
Secondly, unless you want to overflow the market with meseta and crafting items, you're going to have to lower the drop rate according to the amount of players, essentially making this new system exactly the same as the old one (see my previous posts).
Thirdly, PSO2's weapons had potential, abilities, and element. 2/3 of these factors do not exist in PSU and 3/3 don't exist for TECH and Range weapons. What this means is that any instance of a tech and range weapon is the same instance. The only reason why not every weapon in PSO2 isn't dirt cheap is because of the abilities mainly. Not adjusting the drop rate according to the players in a party will create more weapons than normal and will eventually result in all of them being worthless. Combine that with a grinding system (which has been mentioned several times) where weapons don't break, and you will have a massive excess of gear within no time.

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Saion
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Re: Drop system

Postby Saion » Thu Feb 04, 2016 8:58 pm

As I stated in my post, it was just a thought, did state "it could work, it might not, depends". I'm well aware of possible loop holes in a system, & trust me I don't like to see janky stuff. Again, I'm fine with the random item distribution, plus I'm sure Midori & the gang(Scooby-Doo reference) are working around the clock to figure out the best possible solution for the drop system, I trust they will come up with something that'll be reasonable amongst everyone & not something based on one's true desires..
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Re: Drop system

Postby Ricewind » Thu Feb 04, 2016 9:05 pm

Saion wrote:As I stated in my post, it was just a thought, did state "it could work, it might not, depends". I'm well aware of possible loop holes in a system, & trust me I don't like to see janky stuff. Again, I'm fine with the random item distribution, plus I'm sure Midori & the gang(Scooby-Doo reference) are working around the clock to figure out the best possible solution for the drop system, I trust they will come up with something that'll be reasonable amongst everyone & not something based on one's true desires..


I prefer randomized as well. I was thinking of a borderlands-ish system, but that won't apply well here since enemies won't get stronger as they do in borderlands (with more players). It won't even solve the "You stole my drop" 'problem' but it does give motivation to play in parties.
If monsters could be made stronger according to the amount of players in the party, it could work. But it sounds like a lot of extra work for something I don't really see as broken in the first place.

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Midori Oku
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Re: Drop system

Postby Midori Oku » Fri Feb 05, 2016 1:50 am

Ha! Enemies won't get stronger he says. :3

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Re: Drop system

Postby Ricewind » Fri Feb 05, 2016 1:54 am

Midori Oku wrote:Ha! Enemies won't get stronger he says. :3


I meant as in borderlands. Where the enemies get exponentially stronger the more players you have in the current party.
Will this be implemented in Clementine too? Or are you referring to S4-8?

I would LOVE to see the Borderlands difficulty system implemented. I think that would solve the drop problem (in that players would rather play solo for drops) and it would be a lot more challenging too!

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Midori Hoshi
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Re: Drop system

Postby Midori Hoshi » Thu Nov 03, 2016 10:34 pm

Why are we discussing the drop system in the first place? What are we trying to achieve? I think many people here haven't even asked themselves these questions.

PSU is an online multiplayer game, but it doesn't always encourage multiplayer, especially at high levels. For those of us who have played PSO and PSU on official servers, we know that once a player becomes strong enough to solo, he is generally better off soloing instead of playing multiplayer. This is because once you reach max level and exp is no longer important, the main/only reason for running missions is to get items and meseta. So at this point it all comes down to math to determine the best way to get items. If the best way to get items is solo, then you end up with a game where the best players will solo because that's the best way to play the game. Not only does that suck for the solo player because playing by yourself is generally viewed as boring and lonely, but it also sucks for weaker players because it will be harder to convince the stronger players to join their party since there is no benefit for the stronger players.

And as that strong player becomes even stronger, he is even more discouraged from playing multiplayer because in order for an additional party member to do more good than harm, they would have to be strong enough to cut the mission clear time in half or better. So assuming you can solo a mission in 10 mins, unless the additional party member is strong enough to bring the mission clear time to under 5 mins, you are better off soloing. In other words, this kind of system makes strong players seem like jerks when they don't want to play with anyone weaker than them. But it's really not their fault for acting this way since that's how the game is designed. Instead of blaming a strong player for being good at the game, you should blame the devs for designing the game to discourage multiplayer and discouraging partying with weaker players.

The ideal situation would be a game that encourages multiplayer for all players, regardless of strength. We can do this by having a split drop system (like PSP2i, PSO2 and most modern MMOs), where each player gets their own drops that only they can interact with. So if 20 items normally drop in a mission, each player should get 20 drops regardless of how many party members there are. So if a strong player can solo the mission in 10 mins, he could consider letting 5 very weak players join him, because even if the 5 weak players only bring down the clear time to 9 mins, it still benefits him.

This drop system should be the ONLY drop system for Clementine. It should be the default system, with nothing else available even as an option. There would be no need for any other systems since they would be vastly inferior and there is no point to using them. The only possible downside to this drop system would be having too many items drop overall for the server. It's important that the item/meseta drops are balanced around this drop system, so that doesn't end up happening.

It's extremely important that an online multiplayer game like PSU actually encourages multiplayer. If your solution for anything is to discourage multiplayer, you are doing it wrong and need to come up with a better solution. PSU official had a few drop systems to choose from and all of them were bad. But that doesn't mean we have to do the same. Let's make Clementine superior to the official server.
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darkshadow
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Re: Drop system

Postby darkshadow » Wed Nov 09, 2016 1:39 am

Midori Hoshi wrote:
The ideal situation would be a game that encourages multiplayer for all players, regardless of strength. We can do this by having a split drop system (like PSP2i, PSO2 and most modern MMOs), where each player gets their own drops that only they can interact with. .


that's what i would like to see in PSU Split drop system but of course that can be bad for market if its not set properly
i remember when i was playing on xbox and loot was set turn to turn people was using this to try to snipe loot :twisted:

Alexandrious
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Re: Drop system

Postby Alexandrious » Sun Dec 11, 2016 10:00 pm

darkshadow wrote:
Midori Hoshi wrote:
The ideal situation would be a game that encourages multiplayer for all players, regardless of strength. We can do this by having a split drop system (like PSP2i, PSO2 and most modern MMOs), where each player gets their own drops that only they can interact with. .


that's what i would like to see in PSU Split drop system but of course that can be bad for market if its not set properly
i remember when i was playing on xbox and loot was set turn to turn people was using this to try to snipe loot :twisted:


Aye, your all right on this. Spite I mainly played a Human Figunner, I rarely grouped much and when I did join random groups it was just for fun, I had rare and highly grinded weapons of all kinds and the best armor possible of varying elements and attributes I would switch around depending on what I was doing. I was one of the very few Human players the Elitists and Min/maxers would allow or actually ask for in groups due to my ridiculously frantic and berserk-like playing style, where I would constantly be spamming Tech Arts and changing between weapons constantly, swapping weapons in and out of the palette on the fly depending on the situation, and what I was doing, and always keeping recharges at hand to charge back my weapons.

But it was because of this that I mostly soloed when I wanted to grind for meseta and specific items, only ever taking people I fully and completely trust to help me farm for specific weapons and drops so long as they can have what they need. But man was it exhausting to play the way I did, hands would hurt too.

A PSO2 Drop system would be excellent to fix alot of the issue the PSU drop system causes, but can it be done?


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