Drop system

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Crimsonknight
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Re: Drop system

Postby Crimsonknight » Tue Feb 02, 2016 1:34 pm

Ricewind wrote:Edit: To the post above mine:
Awarding tokens for completing a mission completely takes away the RNG aspect. It'll turn into a total grind-fest. Run the mission the fastest = get more tokens.

The goal for the tokens was for it to be like an insurance policy. The current drop rates wouldn't change, so there would be the same RNG aspect for the most part. The tokens would just add a means for very unlucky players to have a fair opportunity to get something for their work.
I don't think it matters much though, Midori explained that adding more exchange missions probably won't happen.

The problem I am seeing is that any move towards individual drops will affect the drop rates, which were already abysmally low. I see that creating an even greater void between players than ever before.
Has the idea been thrown in here about giving certain classes a higher roll weight than others?
I.e., Masterforce's have a higher likelihood of receiving a [B] Psycho Wand than a [B] Feril Line from a roll

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Midori Oku
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Re: Drop system

Postby Midori Oku » Tue Feb 02, 2016 3:01 pm

Crimsonknight wrote:Has the idea been thrown in here about giving certain classes a higher roll weight than others?
I.e., Masterforce's have a higher likelihood of receiving a [B] Psycho Wand than a [B] Feril Line from a roll


o.0

Feril Line is really only useful on Fortetecher and Masterforce. It has no arm slot, and gives a TP bonus. In fact, all three 14* armors of the feril type are basically MF/FT armors. If that kind of system was added Masterforce and FT should have a higher likelihood to get them as well.

Feril Line - http://www.psupedia.info/Feril_Line.html

Feri-Senba - http://www.psupedia.info/Feri-senba.html

Rabol Feril - http://www.psupedia.info/Rabol_Feril.html

Along with each having the slots needed for MF/FT (one could argue needing an arm slot for FT) all three armors give some sort of TP bonus. Keep in mind psupedia has the TP bonuses listed wrong.

Feril Line = 55(60) TP
Feri-Senba = 60 TP
Rabol Feril = 40 TP

I get what you mean though. For armors that certain classes are more likely to get, it could look like this....

Fighter = Rabol Voria, Red Line, De Ragan Line, Rabol Nico, and Rabol Buti

Gunner = Storm Line, Castest Line, Lumirus Line, Vijerina Line, Quebbler Suit, and Thirteen

Techer = Baji-Senba, Oka-Senba, Crisla-Senba, Feril Line, Rabol Feril, and Feri-Senba

Hybrid = Rabol Orachio (there are others)

Non-hybrid = Armas Line

Free for all = Serafi-Senba, Rabol Rolei, Shijin, and Ryukoh,

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Crimsonknight
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Re: Drop system

Postby Crimsonknight » Tue Feb 02, 2016 7:51 pm

Oh wow, the first random armor that came to mind ended up being a MF/FT favored one. I completely forgot about it's stats and armor slots x.x Thank's for correcting that.

I'm glad you still got my point though. Is that something that can be done to the drop system? Assign different weights to the rolls of items useful for specific classes?
The way you outlined it makes perfect sense for armors, but when I think about a system like that for weapons it worries me that players will get penalized for running popular missions with groups and only receiving [B] Gaozoran Rod's while others get every [B] Agito Repca

Ricewind
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Re: Drop system

Postby Ricewind » Tue Feb 02, 2016 10:56 pm

This proposition seems unfair.

What if I want to gather gear for my secondary character which is a Tech-based class while I'm a Range-based class?
I will also receive a penalty to receiving other gear than what my class relates to. If I'm hunting for an item because of its value (or other reasons) but it's not aligned with my class, I will receive a penalty.
This hardly seems fair at all.

Why fix it if it isn't broken? Just force everyone to use randomized drop distribution. Then everyone will have equal chances. No need to moan when you don't get that rare item you were going for, just try again.

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Seority
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Re: Drop system

Postby Seority » Tue Feb 02, 2016 11:01 pm

Crimsonknight wrote:...my suggestion is to possibly implement a token-awarding system into the mission completion reward...
Thoughts?


I really like this idea. You get the items you want with no need to worry about others taking it at all. Those who work for the items, get them. Also if we go for a separated drop system, there's even no chance of others stealing your trade in loot. Lots of positives!

We'll need to see if others will be ok with a trade-in system, otherwise I'm very up for them. In my eyes, PSU was always a grind fest, just that it was all based on luck instead of effort. :P

Ricewind wrote:Base an items value on recent trades, if anyone 'rolls' the received item, subtract points from their pool. Add points whenever they don't get a drop. Lower points = bigger chance to get a drop.


Giving players a way to "suck" rares is never a good idea. As you said, if these stats were somehow public, people would be neglected based on those stats which isn't fair. Let's try to keep drop rates the same between all players.


Ricewind wrote:Just force everyone to use the randomized loot distribution that PSU offered. We know that worked well. If you don't get the drop, too bad, try again or grind solo.


I suppose the original drop rates were "justified" or "fair" but as you can tell, most people did not like it. I enjoy PSU for multiple things, but the drop system is not one of them.

Ricewind wrote:Awarding tokens for completing a mission completely takes away the RNG aspect. It'll turn into a total grind-fest. Run the mission the fastest = get more tokens.


Wasn't it always like that though? Those who could run it the most usually got the drops. It's fair though as well. Those who work more for it, should earn it. It's when players who play very little, yet get the rare drops (sometimes never using them) is what I think is unfair.
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Crimsonknight
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Re: Drop system

Postby Crimsonknight » Tue Feb 02, 2016 11:22 pm

Seority wrote:
Crimsonknight wrote:...my suggestion is to possibly implement a token-awarding system into the mission completion reward...
Thoughts?


I really like this idea. You get the items you want with no need to worry about others taking it at all. Those who work for the items, get them. Also if we go for a separated drop system, there's even no chance of others stealing your trade in loot. Lots of positives!

We'll need to see if others will be ok with a trade-in system, otherwise I'm very up for them. In my eyes, PSU was always a grind fest, just that it was all based on luck instead of effort. :P


Yeah! That's the idea! Just to clarify too, not every drop would be available to trade for my suggested token based system. I was just thinking items like Gaozoran Rods or Rattlesnakes that were a lower tier and oddly difficult to farm, but still useful. The very top tier items should only be available from drops of course.

Also, I second all of Seority's points. PSU was always a grind fest, and those who could grind the fastest were awarded the most (almost all of the time.) This is our chance to alter the loot system slightly to make it enjoyable for everybody, without it being charity. Great suggestions though!

Ricewind
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Re: Drop system

Postby Ricewind » Wed Feb 03, 2016 12:05 am

Ok, so how about this?
Let's combine the 2 systems.

Runescape later introduced another system (to combat exploiting the point pool). If a drop is awarded to players belonging to a party (which was optional in Runescape and can be optional in PSU as well I suppose), the item would split into shards. Once you had all the shards, you could put them together to form the item. Shards could also be traded to other players.

An example would be this: 5 Players run a rare mission and someone picks up a Spread Needle that was just dropped. Everyone in the party gets 20 Spread Needle shards. Players can then choose to sell or buy shards. If someone has 100 shards, they can create the weapon itself.

On the plus side, This will keep everything completely 100% fair for everyone. Loot is 100% shared among every player. The exciting RNG aspect of not knowing what drop you'll receive also stays.

On the down side; This will introduce A LOT more items in clementine. And we would need a new system to combine the shards (albeit this probably will be very easy to achieve).
You can set up shards for specific items only (drop rate thresholds or community-established value).
Extra possibilities would be to add a new tab to the inventory or storage which only holds shards.
Allow setting that determines which rarity and above will be split up into shards.

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Crimsonknight
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Re: Drop system

Postby Crimsonknight » Wed Feb 03, 2016 3:43 am

I like that concept. Overall it is only introducing 1 whole Spread Needle into the game, no matter what. If there are 3 people, then they each get 33 shards. Seems fair to me. I just worry that it's too many extra items to introduce into the game :-/

Speaking of Runescape, and going slightly off topic for a moment, I wanted bring the voting mechanic the Jagex team introduced for the Old School Runescape servers to players attention. The Jagex staff created a web based voting system, as ell as an in-game voting booth with the same options. I've seen the voting option at the top of the forums, but not every player reading these things logs in or votes in them. If we had like a voting booth at the most popular mission counters or areas (Clyez City 4th Floor) that outlined all of the potential changes with a voting option we could ensure the entire community has an opportunity to have their voices heard.

Ricewind
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Re: Drop system

Postby Ricewind » Wed Feb 03, 2016 8:31 am

That's why I think we need to narrow down what items get split into shards and which don't. This can be based on a drop rate or by an estimation of how long it takes to get 1 item on average.
Yes it does introduce a lot of new items into the game, but I see this as the best alternative to the original drop system. The drop rates and RNG-factors stay the same (which is one of the core-gameplay factors of this game).

And yes, we could introduce the voting system. The only bad thing I see here are the voting options.
Old school runescape's options come from options discussed and narrowed down by developers themselves. There are always for the good of the game (or mostly always).
Runescape (3)'s options come from player ideas. The most famous ideas get introduced as voting options. This is part of what messed up the game, made it too easy and convenient for everyone.

If there is moderation and thought behind the voting options, I'm all game for them

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Seority
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Re: Drop system

Postby Seority » Thu Feb 04, 2016 4:02 am

I don't think the "shards" idea is good. I think just trading in items that are rewarded/dropped in missions is fine.

I do agree on mixing it up between drops and trade ins.
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